I'm in zone 6 in Pennsylvania and I grow the good Duchesse. I also grow Lady Hillingdon. They do not get as big as they do in zone 7 or below but so far DdB has been in my garden for about 5 years and is about 3 feet. LH has been there for 3 and is about 4.5 - 5 feet tall. I think you are safe with DdB. Go for it. She is a lovely rose.

Barbara

A while back, someone posted a new climate zone map, which has been released by (I think) the Arbor Day Foundation.
If I am not mistaken, that new map shows a substantial shift to warmer.
That might explain why a rose long-thought to be suitable up to Zone 5 can suddenly survive Zone 6 (and so on).
There's a lot of information on the changing zones at the article (see link) below.

Jeri

Here is a link that might be useful: Arbor Day Zone Article

Very interesting, Jeri. So now I am in Zone 7?

Tea shopping, anybody?

Of course it depends on conditions in that particular garden, and in different spots in that garden: microclimates! I have places where I plant Hybrid Musks and places where I plant Chinas, and they're not interchangeable. Siting makes a significant difference.

Melissa

I don't think you can go by the zone information entirely, and sometimes the catalog or advertisement doesn't tell you at all. So you have to try to find it on the web. Some do say zone 5 (or the range), then I go to HMF and they say 6b. Quite a difference. To make things even worse, I suspect some vendors fudge on the zone to make more sales, but I'm not accusing all of them of that.

So I end up winging it and making mistakes.

Thanks for the revised map, Jeri. I'll take a look at it.

Good Point Melissa! I can get away with lots if i put them in
the right place...

Remember that cold air flows downhill and pools, like water.
So, if you're siting something borderline too tender for your conditions, I would try to visualize that flow.
Two years ago when we had a damaging freeze, plants high on the hillside were un-harmed.
Identical plants at the bottom of the hill were hit hard.

Jeri

Well the area I was considering on the top wall of my driveway, is high up but it is on the Eastern corner, slightly Northeast so I am not sure about winds. I guess the wind would be more damaging on the hill up there.

I've never lost a rose yet because it was too cold, but have lost several to drowning, canker, too small for conditions. I'm sure even in the rated zones they have a record breaking freeze once in a while and probably lose some roses.

Jeri, I did look at the map, and my zone didn't change :-(.

And I ooh and aah over things I can never grow outside and some even inside. Plus I have pushed the envelope and haven't lost any so far, but I know not to push too far.

But I marvel at all the ones I can grow. People around here grow HT's all around, must winter protect them pretty well. Unless I don't understand was HT truly is.

I don't know Aliska. I know someone who grows Teas in Michigan.
It all depends on how extreme you're willing to be.
I'm not saying I could do it, tho.

Jeri

I decided to just focus on the older ones or modern spinoffs of them. Years ago I drooled over some Austins in a mag, took me all these years to get around to try growing some. I have my hands full with the ones I have.

I thought you posted a pic of just one. I lived in No. CA for awhile and am almost positive the lady across the way grew a lot of teas. But that was Petaluma, may be quite different in other parts of the state.

Jeri, Thank you for the reminder re: colder downhill. I've got significant slope and never added that into my thinking--tho I think the only roses I've really lost to cold were bands I planted in Oct and Mrs. Oakley Fisher.
I think zones are a bit like expiration dates on food and drugs--it doesn't mean it's bad; it just means it isn't guaranteed, try at your own risk. Mrs. Oakley Fisher went downhill a little further every winter, even tho she was uphill, full sun and protected. But I grew her easily in Santa Fe, which is much harsher. Go figure..

Zones are only a small part of the story, as has been discussed on this forum before. I've lived in three zone 8 places--north Florida, western Washington, and northern hills of Italy--and they're climatically as different from each other as can be. Questions to consider are: what is the average winter temperature? Is it mild but chilly (Italy and western Washington), or often warmish but with brief sharp frosts (Florida)? When a spell of cold weather comes, how long does it last: hours, days, weeks? How hot does it get in summer (heat ripens wood and some roses need it)? Does very cold weather arrive with wind? snow? ice? Are late or early frosts likely? Also the interplay of levels of humidity and different temperatures make climates different from each other. It rarely snows in north Florida, for example, not because it doesn't freeze, but because freezing weather is almost invariably dry.

Then there's the individual garden and siting in it. I believe the English are great experts at this. Where does the cold wind blow from? The hot wind? Is there protection from cold wind? Are there protecting, south-facing walls against which more tender plants can be grown? Are there low spots in which cold can pool? How much shade does a site get, and when (time of day and season)? What is the soil like? How much moisture does it get and when?

I think a lot about these things as I'm forever growing plants that I suspect may be a bit tender for my climate. Actually, the last three winters have been very warm indeed, so my garden hasn't been put to the test. Lately the problem has been hot, droughty summers, and they need thinking about in just the same way as winter cold does. Gardening becomes thrillingly interesting when you begin thinking about microclimates.

Melissa

Funny, Melissa -- Your last three winters have been unusually warm -- ours have been unusually cold.
We set a series of new winter cold records.
Now, we're setting a series of new high temperature records.
-SIGH-

Jeri

Jeri,
No fun at all, that kind of weather. What are your record highs?
Here we got as much rain in five weeks as in the previous eleven months put together. Half the shade garden is flooded with mud and manure, which is generally a good thing, except that we can't get in it without rubber boots and it killed, probably, our precious young yellow-flowered magnolia. The poor tree was planted in that spot precisely because of the the trickle of water passing close by, but no one expected the flooding of the Nile in quite the measure that happened. Now it's hot here as well. Our ground floor is half underground and stays cool and we have a wisteria pergola in front, but outside it's blazing in the afternoon. I'm going out in a little while to work before the sun gets high.
Melissa

Here, 93 deg for several days running.
A few miles inland, 108, 110 -- even 115.

The scary thing about it is that this is completely unlike our normal weather.
In this season, we should be getting foggy days, with a chilly sea breeze. "June Gloom."
Few older homes here have any sort of air conditioning. It's never been needed. Until now.
No rain to speak of last winter. Little the year before.
There is serious, SERIOUS talk about mandatory water-rationing.

Jeri

Jeri, I watched a documentary on the California water situation a little while ago, and they were putting out ominous warnings. I hate to say it, but it doesn't look good. "They" were looking at desalination plants, but then they would have to deal with the environmental impact on marine life. Up here, we are lucky in that we have a little water restricting in the dryest part of the summer, and that's about it. But everyone, everywhere will have to learn to conserve water and not take it for granted - what is happening in California could very well happen here or anywhere. We've all heard that the next big war will not be fought over oil, but over water. Scary stuff, indeed.
Judith

Judith, when they say the next war will be for water, I believe they're right.
In fact, some of the bloodiest conflicts now in the African Subcontinent are, in fact, over water.
In Southern California, we are tragically overpopulated for our available resources.
We got by for almost 100 years, "stealing" water from other areas. Now we're losing that, which is just.
It's very scary.

Our neighbors dump gallons of water down the Lane every week, from their @#%$%$$ swimming pool.
It can't even be salvaged, because of the chemicals.
And here, we're saving dishwater for the roses.
Drives me nuts.

Jeri

Jeri, I guess they had better start at the "top" when they implement water-rationing. Much as I love a refreshing swim when it's sweltering outside, the pools will have to be the first to go. And the constant (even up here) lawn-watering (and lots of sidewalk watering along with that), the car-washing with the hose, has to stop. Grass will go dormant, and then comes back when it cools down. It all drives me nuts, too, since I hate waste of any kind.
I hope they can find some kind of a solution that you can all live with.
Judith