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james_hoon

adding mulch and organic

19 years ago

I have a couples stupid questions here since I'm pretty new on gardening and would love to make my backyard beautiful for my wife.

1. After you add organic matter or coffee ground or fresh clipping grass or any fertilize what do you do with existing soil? disregards the top soil or keep adding it up. I have all the plant in the soil at level where I want it to be. the more I add these stuffs the level would get higher. If I disregards only the top soil that would be a waste since the top soil is where I add organic the most. If I have to dig deeper I'm afraid that I will damage the root system.

2. How do you mulch? I have "Scott's Sierra Red Mulch" all around my tree and roses but not as deep (3") as recommended. I've read that I need to replace these old ones every years or it'd compost into the soil after a period of time. I'd like to know what you guys do with it.

3. I don't have compost bin since I live in a small condo. Is it okay to add fresh clipping grass into the soil directly? How do I add this stuff, under the mulch, on top of it or dig a hole near plants and put them down into the hole?

Thanks

James

Comments (14)

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Organic material shrinks alarmingly over the course of the year. Just add it in, any increase in volume will be temporary.

    No need to replace mulch, and no need to add so much each year. A bit of it will decompose into the soil, if you like the look of fresh mulch then just sprinkle a thin layer on top of the existing mulch each year.

    Adding organic materials directly to the soil is a form of composting. You can dump it on top (lasagna gardening) or dig a hole or trench and bury it (trench composting). Both work fine, depending what you want.

    Why do you have grass clippings? Don't you mulch mow?

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Adding organic matter to a garden will fluff the level up a bit but it breaks down and shrinks over time though if you continue adding it will slowly grow. The soil level does not grow quickly and should not be a problem unless your garden is already several inches above the patio and already spilling over.

    As to adding organic matter, you can simply spread it around under your plants. If you already have a decorative mulch that you don't want to cover up, pull it back, add your grass clippings, coffee grounds, etc, then put your decorative mulch back on top. Of course things like coffee grounds could probably just get sprinkled around and they will fall through the mulch without the extra step.

    As to replacing mulch. Most people just re-fresh the top with new for looks as the older levels break down. To remove and replace it robs your soil of much of the work it has been doing to break down the older mulch.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    The reason I ask becuz I plan to add manure into my garden next season and right this moment the level of the soil is almost the same level of my patio. I believe that I have to apply a lot of manure to the garden for growth season, correct?

    Right now I use combination of "Miracle Grow all purpose pallet (shake and feed)" and 5-5-5 Organic fertilize plus extra coffee ground banana and a bit of clipping grass when possible. Do I need anything else for my Banana, Raspberry, tomato, Jujubi, and Roses?

    Thanks
    James

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    You already have "topsoil" so there is no reason to add more since all "topsoil" is is the top 4 inches of your soil. Mulch so you can help conserve water because mulches aid in soil moisture retention, aid in suppressing weed growth, aid in keeping the soil cooler (which your plants will really like), and proper mulches help add necessary organic matter to your soil.
    Some people will tell you that mulches will "disappear" but the soil bacteria, the Soil Food Web, digests those mulches (if they are organic material) and moves that into the soil and the nutrients that were in those mulches then supply needed nutrients to your plants, via the Soil food Web, and when your soil becomes healthy enough you will no longer need to add "fertilizers".
    You do need to replenish, not replace, mulches and how often depends on where you are and how active the Soil Food Web you have is. In my sandy soils here I put on 6 to 8 inches of shredded leaves every fall along with 1/2 inch of compost to keep feeding the Soil Food Web, and right now most of the mulch from last fall is gone, worked into the soil by the bacteria and fungi and earthworms and ants and all the other wee critters that digest the organic matter. The current soil test from Michigan State University says, for the planting beds I tested, that I have optimal levels of nutrients although I maybe should add 1/2 pound of Nitrogen per 1,000 square feet of garden, a really negligble amount. My testing shows that I have 7 percent humus in that soil and the soil clumps well and falls apart easily, good tilth. The soil, sand, drains almost too well and I will find 15 or more earthworms in each shovel full of soil if I dig in one of those beds. These simple soil test will help you, eventually, get similar results.
    1) Structure. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. A good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

    2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

    3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart.

    4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer you soil will smell.

    5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Unfortunately I don't have "topsoil". I moved to new house with nothing planted in the backyard. The soil is hard gray clay. I mixed existing soil with compost bought from homedepot about 6-12" deep ratio about 2 clay : 1 compost about a month ago. As of now the drainage is better than before but I don't see any earthworms yet. I plan to dig earthworms from somewhere else and add into my soil. That why I need to prepare everything for next growth season.

    BTW I have fertilize for Orchid, formula is 20-20-20 (mix with water), Can I use this with other plants like fruit tree or roses?

    James

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    You do have "topsoil" it is just that your expectation of what "topsoil" is has been skewed because of what is sold in stores as "topsoil". Most people I talk with about what they expect "topsoil" to be actually describe loam, a specific soil type not available everywhere. It takes time once compost has been mixed into the soil for the Soil Food Web to develop, 2 or 3 years. Improvement in soil is a slow process, but the earthworms will appear.
    If a soil test indicates there is a need to use that "fertilizer" that may be something to consider, but a good, reliable soil test is needed before any "fertilizer" is added.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    If it's new construction then I disagree. Many builders remove the topsoil and sell it, leaving the new homeowner with what is really subsoil.

    I suppose you can now call it topsoil because it's on the top, but it's not what you think of when you think of topsoil, and it might not be anything like the topsoil that is found in your area in natural settings.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    The builder comes in and scrapes off the top 4 inches of soil that was there, the "topsoil" and then the next top 4 inches of soil become "topsoil", because the only definition of "topsoil" that exists is that "topsoil" is the top 4 inches of soil. In the real world the term "topsoil" is meaningless. What most people think of when they talk about "topsoil" is loam, a specific soil type that is defined as containing 45 percent sand, 25 percent silt, 25 percent clay, and 5 percent organic matter and if that is you idea of "topsoil" then that, loam, is what you need to talk about, not "topsoil".
    "Topsoil" is whatever the seller wants it to be, not what you have pictured in your mind. The only people around here that still sell "topsoil" are excavators, people that scrape soil off the land. The rest sell "garden soil" and one of those is the organci matter dredged from one of the lakes around here mixed with sand and lime, another is mixed by the nursery according to a "secret" recipe and includes cigarette filters, used diapers, and other waste products while a third mixes compost (this guy collects leaves in the fall and composts them) with some soil (that can be either sand or clay depending on his source). Many years ago some of the nurseries around here sold spent foundry sand as "topsoil" and many, many places around town have that and are trying to grow grass in it.
    The term "topsoil" has no real meaning and should not be used.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    If you are arguing pure semantics, then OK you win. But are you honestly arguing that if the builder removes (probably quite a bit more than) several inches of the soil on top, that what's left is likely what we all think of as topsoil? Isn't one of the reasons we worry about erosion that the topsoil is washed away, and that soil is the stuff that harbors the elements we need to grow things?

    I will say that if his "topsoil" is actually lifeless "subsoil" then it might be very useful to go to a nursery he likes and buy something to grow plants in and start from there instead of with subsoil. The nursery near me sells what they call "planting mix" and if I were building my raised beds over again I'd buy that instead of pure dairy farm compost, which shrinks alarmingly.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Interesting, around here most builders now bring in truck loads upon truckloads of fill and compact that down before building. Here this usually means that a house is built on several feet of orange sand. This also means that old neighborhoods near these newer neighborhoods are prone to flooding since they are now several feet lower than the new construction surrounding them.
    Oh well.

    Some "top soil" might be helpfull for planting that you want to do right away but simply adding as much organic matter as you can will be less costly and just as good in the long run. Also, generally adding whatever is different from your soil will help with drainage/moisture retention. If you have clay, then sand can help. If you have sand then clay can help. Of course organic matter helps both and can often be collected for free rather than having to Buy "dirt".

    Good luck.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    just as good in the long run.

    I think the key phrase here is "in the long run". Depends on how many years you're willing to wait. If he makes all of his own compost it'll be way cheaper, but could take much longer.

    If you do buy "dirt", make sure you go and look at it before you have a load delivered. As Kimmsr says, some of it is really awful.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    If your "topsoil" source is getting virgin topsoil then yes that would be good topsoil. But seldom does anyone today get virgin "topsoil" By definition, in any dictionary, "topsoil" is the top 4 to 6 inches of the soil. That, usually, is where the most active Soil Food Web is located, providing there is sufficient organic matter in that soil.
    I have seen everything from spent foundry sand to what was dredged from a wetland, illegally, sold as "topsoil". We need to get away from that meaningless term.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    so let say as of now I have not so good quality of top soil. I'm not sure about food web but not a very good drainage at all. Will it get better or become quality top soil over time if I add mulch with bark on top over the year without digging or adding any other compost or fertilize?

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    bark mulch is pretty slow to break down so simply using it for a year without anything else probably won't make a huge improvement. Where are you located by the way (like what climate)? It makes a difference as to how fast stuff breaks down. You will probably see a faster improvement by adding some thin layers of different stuff. Like some compost, grass clippings, leaves and save the decorative bark or wood mulch to put on top. Other things that can help boost soil microbes include sprinkling stuff like corn (or other) meals. Coffee grounds make great soil amendments too.

    If (as you mentioned) you are having problems with stuff washing onto the patio from the planting area, there are a couple things you could do. Perhaps devise some sort of edging for the planting area to hold in the extra amendments as they break down. This could be as easy as a bit of wood, brick block or even that black plastic edging material sold at garden centers. On the other hand, perhaps dig a little trench near the edge of the planting area, removing only a small amount of your clay to give the amendments a bit of a stop before washing onto the patio. It doesn't need to be much of a trench, I'm talking like a few inches deep/wide, something you might dig with a hand trowel.

    By the way, how big a planting area is this? Is it already full of plants you want to keep? Or is it rather baron and in need of beautifying? Is it pretty flat but above the patio enough to wash onto that space or is it angled to really wash onto the patio? All this affects how best to deal with the situation?