Tilting the pot back and forth after watering really facilitates good drainage. I do that all the time.

Karen

would not putting in raised beds alleviate the issue?? surely. be too easy realy. either that or install a french/agricultural drain in the appropriate place, could be something else to look at. in pots drainage can be greatly improved by adding rubble on the bottom before adding the mix and the plant.

anyhow great effort to inform others.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: lens garden page

Thanks for the heads-up Al.

tj

Mix in sand, pea stone,shredded leaves to encourage drainage.

You are the Man Al ;-)

Most of the replies are pretty funny though, apparently you are going to have to make more appearances on this forum (you have been gone too long) lots of people don't know about your vast (and may I say...awesome) knowledge ,when it concerns Containers... you may have to do another primer on the basics of container gardening.

Thanks, John! That was very kind. ;o)

Jolj - did you miss that I was referring to container soils?

Al

I remember from back in my college hort. days being taught the importance of a couple of things in potted flowering plant production; the dimension of the pot and particular soilless mixture are critical and species dependent. what works very well for hydrangeas would be terrible for a mums and so on. It all had to do with water holding capacity, pore space and to a lesser extent, the ability of the plant in pot to actually stand freely when the customer got it. Commercial greenhouse ranges are unique in that they are watering and fertigating far more freely than a homeowner would, they make their mixes good for their growing conditions but not necessarily good for a homeowner.

Conversational tone: I'm not sure how long ago you were in college, but a LOT has changed over the last score of years. I can make an excellent case that with the right substrate, i.e., with one quality substrate, you can maintain superbly healthy plants in virtually any size pot. The reason I can say this is, I have been doing it (and posting pictures here that illustrate the point very well) for more than a score of years, and helping others to do the same.

Mums and hydrangeas can grow side by side in the same substrate and flourish. You may need to adjust the pH of the substrate (soil) solution for the hydrangeas by acidifying the fertigation solution if you want them blue, but other than how you approach nutrition, both will respond exceptionally well to a porous, free-draining substrate in any size container ..... with the proviso added that container size does not cause root constriction to become a limiting factor.

One of the things that we take into consideration when we choose a substrate is that it must provide support for the plant. This actually has more to do with the age (state of lignification) and volume of the root mass than it does substrate choice. Potting up into too large a container produces toppling not because of any substrate shortcoming, but almost always because the roots haven't sufficiently colonized the soil mass and/or the roots are still unlignified/succulent.

"Commercial greenhouse ranges are unique in that they are watering and fertigating far more freely than a homeowner would, they make their mixes good for their growing conditions but not necessarily good for a homeowner."

Commercial ops water as infrequently as possible w/o inducing drought stress, so - on an 'as-needed' basis. 'As-needed' is dictated by substrate, temperature, humidity levels, and growth rate of the plant material. What you said may be true if taken in a 'real time' sense, because greenhouse conditions are usually (close to) perfect; plants actually grow and USE water/fertilizer faster than in the natural environment where they will soon reside. Hopefully the idea and measure of real time fertigation can be discarded and replaced by the end-grower with the same approach the greenhouse ops use, which is the aforementioned 'as needed'.

Al

No AL, I did not miss container drainage.
I worked with a Nurseryman for 15 years & we used sand & fine bark( leaf mulch will work) in all the container plants. PVC with holes & gravel is an old,old home trick,before pvc,they used towel cores or bamboo.
You maybe talking about a different container then I used. The container can cover alot of thing, from 1 year to 100 years of plant life.

There is a lot more science involved in formulating substrates that ensure appropriate aeration and its companion - drainage, than simply suggesting a few ingredients that certainly don't universally ensure good drainage/aeration, either on their own in combination, unless we know pretty specifically how these ingredients are combined (%s) and/or with what.

Size range of media particles AND uniformity are major players in determining aeration and drainage characteristics. For example, mixing pea stone into a commercially prepared peat-based substrates does nothing to promote drainage or aeration unless it becomes the primary fraction of the soil. Where the peat, or in some cases coir or compost fraction of the soil has a tendency to compact, sand, depending on its size, may or may not improve drainage, but because most tend to use play sand or builder's sand in this application, it is highly likely that any improvement in flow-through rates will be accompanied by reduced air porosity, increased water retention, and an increase in the ht of the perched water table. None are favorable contributions to the properties of a substrate that is already struggling with aeration and drainage - or there would have been no need to amend the soil in the first place.

Al

Hey Al,
Hopefully you can "cut and paste", your awesome description of "Pudding" being corrected with rocks ;-)

Hi, Jon! I DID note your awesome contributions to a few threads about composting, but my efforts pale in comparison, so I felt I had nothing to add other than a sincere "Way to go! Strong work!"

From another of my posts:

Obviously, I think the grower's soil choice when establishing a planting for the long term is the most important decision he/she will make. There is no question that the roots are the heart of the plant, and plant vitality is inextricably linked in a hard lock-up with root vitality. In order to get the best from your plants, you absolutely must have happy roots.
If you start with a water-retentive medium, you cannot improve it's aeration or drainage characteristics by adding larger particulates. Sand, perlite, Turface, calcined DE ...... none of them will work. To visualize why sand and perlite can't change drainage/aeration, think of how well a pot full of BBs would drain (perlite), then think of how poorly a pot full of pudding would drain (bagged soil). Even mixing the pudding and perlite/BBs together 1:1 in a third pot yields a mix that retains the drainage characteristics and PWT height of the pudding. It's only after the perlite become the largest fraction of the mix (60-75%) that drainage & PWT height begins to improve. At that point, you're growing in perlite amended with a little potting soil.

You cannot add coarse material to fine material and improve drainage or the ht of the PWT. Use the same example as above & replace the pudding with play sand or peat moss - same results. The benefit in adding perlite to heavy soils doesn't come from the fact that they drain better. The fine peat or pudding particles simply 'fill in' around the perlite, so drainage & the ht of the PWT remains the same. All perlite does in heavy soils is occupy space that would otherwise be full of water. Perlite simply reduces the amount of water a soil is capable of holding because it is not internally porous. IOW - all it does is take up space.

If you want to profit from a soil that offers superior drainage and aeration, you need to build it into the soil from the start, by ensuring that the soil is primarily comprised of particles much larger than those in peat/compost/coir, which is why the recipes I suggest as starting points all direct readers to START with the foremost fraction of the soil being large particles, to ensure excellent aeration. From there, if you choose, you can add an appropriate volume of finer particles to increase water retention. You do not have that option with a soil that is already extremely water-retentive right out of the bag.

I fully understand that many are happy with the results they get when using commercially prepared soils, and I'm not trying to get anyone to change anything. My intent is to make sure that those who are having trouble with issues related to soil, understand why the issues occur, that there are options, and what they are.

Al

So Al, how does this knowledge of container culture help us with garden soil. Whether we are dealing with sandy or heavy soils we can't control the particulate size in the garden. If we want to improve the drainage or water retentiveness of soil or provide aeration for roots, we add organic material. In fact the pine bark fines we use to create container soils are often sold as soil conditioners for clay soils. It seems that we have to act in almost a reciprocal manner when dealing with soil structure in the garden, than we do with containers.

Steve

That is, in many cases, true. There are a LOT of differences between container culture and growing in the garden. Those who insist on bringing all they know about garden soils and put it to work in container culture, trying to replicate a garden in a pot, are at a disadvantage and usually miss out on a lot of potential. The problem is, potential is an abstract, so it's easy to believe you're getting everything out of your plants they have to offer, when in fact they may well be being limited by practices best left in the garden. Each is a culture unto its own, and there are probably as many, or more, areas where the most beneficial methods are clearly defined as quite different than as overlapping or the same. Add the additional limitations imposed by an ideology that excludes some of the methods that work best in container culture, and the ability to get the most from a planting is still further decreased. Any time you limit your (viable) options, it becomes more likely the outcome will be less favorable. There is no making up for a/the limiting factor by improving another potentially limiting factor.

Al