Hi shiver,

Thankfully, I've never read Korina's root rinsing discussions here, and I do have another point of contention with Korina now, since she says she re-pots so frequently that her soil can never grow algae, and she doesn't really know how the urea or ammonium nitrate from fertilizer breaks down???

AV's are very strong plants, and can survive having bad soil. If you repot every five or six months, you will always be cutting some of the bad soil, and old roots away, and new healthy roots will grow from the neck you've potted down into fresh mix. The fresh mix you add to the pot won't sour, just because what's below is sour, unless there is a more serious cultural problem....like overwatering, or alkaline or overly acidic water.

You have to identify the cultural issues first, washing the roots, won't really help if you go back to your same old growing methods.

If your whole pot went sour, or you have root nematodes, it is often quicker to rejuvenite your plant, by chopping the crown off, and re-rooting it in fresh mix, and better cultural conditions...

If your plant was struggling to begin with, and now it has a wet, black matted ball of roots?...it's been further shocked! The crown will root faster and will grow bigger and healthier if you give a good opportunity to!

Russell

Shiver, did you remove most of the soil over the trash can first? I guess I didn't mention that; must've thought it was too obvious. Sorry.

As for getting that last little bit out, if it doesn't smell bad, don't worry about it; like Russell said, it'll work its way out eventually. Otherwise I use a fork to gently work the soil out.

Korina

'We likes the lens flares.' -Cap'n Joss

I rinse mine gently in a bowl of day-old, room-temp water, and then, holding the plant over the bowl, use a spray bottle (with the same kind of water) to loosen the last bits of soil.

I haven't ever had to do this except when I was repotting from the original (heavy) mix the plant came in. The sprayer can go from mist to stream, and I start at the former and move to the latter. I use the gentlest stream possible, but usually it takes the sprayer on stream to get the last bits of peat out of the roots.

While I am spraying, I gently move the peat to loosen it, and then dip it in the bowl again to wash away the loosened peat. Spray. Rinse. Repeat.

I don't bother doing this when I am repotting from my mix to my mix; like Korina said, if it doesn't smell....

Feegle

~found a Mah Jongg Menorah in the Lenox catalog!!!! Will wonders never cease?

Hi Nac mac feegle,

wow, four months ago, you didn't know av's from dandelions? and now your rinsing av roots?

...that's fine I guess?

...really, I just want others to know too, so I'm bringing this post as close to the top as it can get.

Russell

It seems to me that in any repotting information out there, the last thing you want to do is disturb the root ball! You are going to get transplant shock, that's for sure. And some don't survive transplant shock. Maybe cut some of the old ball away, but never disturb it, unless it falls away on its own. It's not the same, such as teasing bark away from roots in an orchid. You could be in for some trouble. Just my thoughts. Joann

I have saved(Thanks to the folks here) quite afew AV's by hacking back, very harshly, the root ball. They haven't stopped blooming in 1 1/2 years and yes I try to do this every 6 to 8 months for the standards and more often for the mini's.

Check out Rachel's as she has instructions and photos to go with them, on how to repot and more....

Water rincing should'nt hurt the plant but if the soil is that bad....why not just save the crown?

Good luck!
Diane

Here is a link that might be useful: Rachel's

Joann, with most plants you'd be right. However AVs are a rather rugged breed and will re-root freely. As Diane said, check Rachel's site to see just how tough these plants are. Also check the FAQ on the forum's main page, and hang out here for a while. You'll be amazed; I know I am.

Welcome and keep asking questions!

Korina

Just in case I was unclear, I am talking about getting the heavy soil (that many AVs come potted in) off the roots. This commercial AV soil and a lot of what AVs come in hold *way* too much water against the roots. AVs seem to be much more susceptible to root rot from excess water than they are to root disturbance.

I do as little disturbing of the roots as I can when transferring an AV from light mix to light mix, but though the heavy soil can be *very* difficult to dislodge from the innermost roots, it's worth it to do so. Even if the outer roots are happy and healthy, if the ones closest to the stem rot, it's time to cut leaves.

Feegle
~it's 3:45 and I'm still in my 'jammies. Gotta love a day like this....

Hey, Jammies Lady, have you tried mold potting yet? I have, a couple of times, and it works pretty well. Just gotta remember to have your soil moist and don't pack it down.

Korina at work (mumblelazycanadiansmumble)

Hi Korina - I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I've been growing these plants for 15 years or more. I never disturb the root ball when repotting if it is in good shape, but have whacked off quite a few through the years, either because of long necks or I didn't like the looks of the root ball. That is what I was talking about. I read in the post that the person was trying to get the old soil off, even on a plant who's root ball looks good, - which I absolutely don't do unless the root ball smells or just doesn't look right - then I take it all off and restart the crown. Joann

Ah, okay. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Yes, rinsing is an extreme measure; the only reason to mess with the rootball is rot, age, and getting the poor plant out of that commercial peat! Yech.

I'm still learning, myself; I've only been doing this for 18 months or so.

So, when I do my 3-month repotting, how do I change the soil? I generally just work it gently to get *some* of the soil off and put it back in it's pot with new soil. Should I be doing it differently, remembering that most of mine are in 1 and 2 oz. cups? Wicked? Hey, that looks like 'wicked' as in 'naughty'. Wicked. Wicked. Hmm.

Korina

'We likes them lens flares.' -Joss Whedon

What is 'mold potting'?

Feegle

~Fine. I'm up and dressed. What more do you want?

smile

Hi Korina- I just gently let the soil that WANTS to come off, come off, then look at the root ball. Sometimes I cut it back on 4 sides and the bottom but I leave the most compacted stuff alone. Sometimes, depending on the age of the plant, the entire root ball goes. I try now (and have for the past 7-8 years) to buy from growers that use decent soil (peat moss/perlite/vermiculite) to begin with so I don't have icky soil from the start. I've never taken apart a rootball to see if there are viable roots in it (except by accident, lol). I have a hunch that there are some, but I really don't care if the plant looks great so I don't want to risk it. Usually I've got a lot of healthy roots around the rootball and the plant looks good, so - leave well enough alone, lol. And - people say look for white roots, but I've got many, many great plants with roots that look a bit brown, and I truly believe they are stained by the medium they are planted in. I see some white roots, but not a lot. The only time I see really white roots are if leaves rooted in water. As for your 2-3 inch solo cups, just do the same thing. I use clay (another no-no, but again, I don't care and it works for me) and most of mine, even the big ones are, in 3-4 inch pots. Minis are in 2 inch pots. I trim the ball down so it can remain in those size pots. I repot faithfully twice a year (the 3-4 inch pot ones) and 3-4 times a year for the minis and semiminis. I'm almost due for another repotting marathon. Even now, after a hot and disgusting summer, they are blooming and growing like mad. Is it worth it? Yup. Love these guys. Joann

You know, I'll bet that's why all my roots are brown; I never thought of something that obvious. Duh! Next time I repot, I'll check the color; I've switched from peat to coconut coir, which hopefully doesn't stain.

Korina

Hey!

I'm fascinated with all this root talk. Really. (Actually I am. I have always gone with root texture more than colour. It's nice to have that validated.)

Now. *What* is 'mold potting'??

Feegle the impatient

Feegle, imagine you have a plant that needs to go from a 3" pot to a 4" pot.

Take the 4" pot and an empty 3" pot (the same kind as the one your plant is in), put some fresh *extra moist* mix in the bottom of the larger pot, until the top of the smaller, set inside, is level with the top of the larger. Then fill in around the sides with more mix, remembering not to pack it in.

The idea is when you take out the smaller pot, you leave behind a hole the exact size and shape of your plant's root ball so you can pop the plant out of its old pot and into the new pot without disturbing the roots. Nifty, eh?

Korina (beer, back bacon, and donuts, eh?)

Okay, that's really cool. And so fracking obvious except for the not coming up with it part. I will have to try it. (pout)

Feegle

~Celiac.... no beer or donuts for me. :(
And it's Peameal, not back bacon (that's England). So there (sticking tongue out and making rude noise). They take the tenderloin, pickle it slightly, and roll it in cornmeal. Cut it and cook it like regular back bacon.

Coir vs. Peat...

I am learning sooo much in this forum. Mold potting!!! Gotta try it. But about Coir over Peat...please tell me. Is it better or just a preference? AND in what form does it come? Cause I would love to try it. I use a soilless, coir-humus mix called "Perfect Start" from Gardensalive in my regular containers and I like it. It is very light. And, I've heard that very nice Gardener Alan Titchmarsh recommend coir and peat-free soiless mixes in general).

Cheers,

Dorothea

Lightly pickled tenderloin, fried w/cornmeal? iiinteresting...

Welcome Dorothea.

Peat moss is strip mined from ancient peat bogs and is not renewable.

Coconut coir is a byproduct of -- well, coconuts, a renewable resource.

Peat is naturally acidic; amendments are added to compensate.

Coir is neutral and needs no amendments.

Peat breaks down over time, raising the acidity of your mix.

Coir breaks down much more slowly, and is not acidic.

Coir comes in bricks; you drop it in a bucket, pour hot water over it, and let it sit. Of course I couldn't be bothered to heat the water, so I just let it sit longer; worked fine.

There has been talk of coir tending to be salty due to the way the coconuts are processed, but the one brick I've been working off of doesn't seem to have that problem.

Really, though, it's a personal preference. :-)

Korina

'Curse this sudden but inevitable betrayal!' -Wash

I agree with you, Korina. I like coconut coir very much and my plants also. Another from its very good features is that even if plant gets too dry (it should not happen but it does) it is easy to water it. Moss is sometimes reluctant to drink water after some point.
And as you mentioned - it is environment friendly, what is important.

Alena

Good day!

Thank you so much. This is just the info I was hoping to receive. I will look for those bricks. I had no idea that peat was not readily renewable. What can be better than a product that serves the purpose and is environmentally friendly?

Thanks again!!

Dorothea

So let me get this straight...you don't want to touch the root ball if it looks healthy? But as I've read here, it's good to re-pot AV's from the dense commercial soil to the 1/3 peat or coir, 1/3 vermiculite, 1/3 perlite mixture? I'm totally new to re-potting AV's and I haven't attempted it with my new acquisitions, yet. Working up the courage, I guess.

So I'm wondering if I should re-pot them right away or wait a few months? And the methodology is either to cut it from all sides or to work it gently by hand and then by water? What do you guys recommend? Leaving the AV alone for now or re-potting right away to a better mixture? I will probably re-pot to the same size pot so it will require handling the roots in some capacity (gasp). I'm treading into unknown territory here and the last thing I want to do is shock my new lovelies...

Thanks any feedback,

Wish

Wish, waiting to repot will only increase the chances of the plant getting root rot. I personally have no problem messing pretty hard with my rootballs (does that sound funny?). I just repotted a few minis, working most of the soil out, including some roots, plopped them back in their pots with new soil, and they're fine. I haven't lost any yet.

'Shock' for a plant, unless it's severe, usually means it'll stop growing for a while until it catches up with itself. Bad if you want continuous blooms all the time, not so much for me at least, as I'm in it for the long haul; I care more for the plants than for the flowers, but I do loves them flowers. Immediate gratification just isn't fast enough!

Hoping that made sense,

Korina (off to my AV club meeting today!)

Thanks, Korina. I just bought some perlite and vermiculite, which I'll mix with my Schultz peat moss. I also have some horticultural charcoal on hand. How much would you recommend adding to the mix, if any?

And speaking of AV Club (lucky lady!), does anyone know if there is an AV Club in the NYC? I would love to see a show or go to a meeting if there is one. I tried looking it up online and only found clubs upstate.

And, one more question: why do most AV companies pot their AV's in such heavy mix in the first place?? Are there suppliers out there who pot their AV's in better mixes? (OK..so that was two more questions...but hey..I'm trying understand all of this AV stuff :)...)

I would rinse the roots in a bucket of warm water that I've taken outside (if the temps aren't freezing), cause it'll mess up your sink otherwise...

If you *really* don't want to repot them now, you have to underwater them. My mother grew AVs for years, and all she ever used was commercial soil. However, her tendency was to forget to water, so everything balanced out.

I hover over my plants, though, and so have to repot immediately into lighter soil or I overwater them.

Now, about a club... Here is a link to the AVSA site and a list of their affiliated clubs. I didn't see one for Manhattan, but maybe one of the others is close. And of course, there may be unafiliated groups available.

Good luck. I was *sooooo* pleased that I had found a group within 10min of my house, until I discovered that they had basically disbanded *this* year. So much for gloating...:(

If you're really worried about this whole rinsing thing, set down some leaves from each plant as backup.

Be brave,

Feegle

Here is a link that might be useful: AVSA local clubs

Thanks, Feegle! I am definitely a hoverer (sp?)...These have become my latest obsession and I'm constantly fawning over them! I'm going to try re-potting with one and see if it likes it.

And thanks for the link--I would love to learn more and have access to other kinds of AV's--heck--I haven't experienced, much less owned, a mini! I'm already dreaming about what cute cache containers I could use for them....(sigh)..

yeah, i was never able to get much soil off either. if it was too hard to get off, i just left it. as soon as i would start trying to take more off, i would start tearing roots. does anyone have a picture of a plant's rootball after being rinsed? i'd really like to see just how much you guys can take off.

my boss also grows his AVs in Scott's Potting Soil only, in clay pots though. He only has 3, but his plants live for years (until a heat wave comes and the ac goes off and the room reaches 120 degrees) and he's been growing for at least 10 years now.

Unfortunately I don't have any new ones that need repotting. Hmmmm.... a reason to 'rescue' another AV??

And I've never done the extreme root rinsing except with NOIDs; all the named varieties ( not that many - a grand total of about 15 now) that I've purchased have come in very nice light mixes, and I didn't feel the need to repot right away.

That being said, the last NOIDs I bought/rescued went through this process and didn't even drop blossoms.

When I am done 'rinsing' a root ball that was compacted with heavy soil, it looks like wet hair: limp, thin, and scraggly.

Again, I have never done this with a named variety, and I realize that different plants have different tolerances for stress.

Korina, have you had to do this with your minis?

Feegle
~who is very brave with her NOIDs, and much more timid with her new little baby minis....

Going back to the original post. There is rarely a time when one needs to remove all the soil. If one wante to get rid of a bad mix, such as a commercial growers muck, it really isn't necessary to get it all off. Your new mix will predominate in the pot and the roots will grow out into it and be fine. The issue isn't one of contamination, like in cleaning a kitchen table. Its a proportional thing. But, if there is a pest issue, like soil mealy bugs, then you want to take more drastic action. When soaking the soil off a plant, I use a small plastic basin, and then toss the dirty water out in the garden. If it is a mealie bug issue, I remove the dry soil first and toss that in the trash, cut off all the roots and reroot the crown under cover, so that it doesn't shock. For a cover I used to use ziplock bags, in which I would enclose the pot and plant. But, nowadays I tend to use the rectangular domes that fit on the 10/20 trays that I use on my light stand. The violets love these enclosures--especially the high domes which are 6-7" tall and fit on top of the 2" trays. I grow my tiny minis under the domes all the time and use them for propagating gesneraids. Now, I only use ziplocks for special situations and for starting seed.

There is a great chapter of the gesneriad society in Manhattan. It meets on the third Saturday in the Chelsea district. Info on this group can be found from the AGGS web site--chapter's page. I think the chapter has a web site. This is a great group with many really wonderful people. They grow all kinds of gesneriads including African Violets.

I'm currently learning about Coir, having switched from Peat last summer. I am buying it in loose 2 cu ft. bags. So far so good. I am also just now trying it in my seed starting mix (1-1-1, cooked to pasturize). Hopefully this stuff will work better than peat. I don't know what the status is of the "salty coir". The world wide situation is that most coir is processed in salt water rather than fresh. But, until relatively recently this stuff was all waste. Hopefully now, the horticultural products will be from fresh water processed coir. A simple way to tell what you have is quickly seen, as I have read--all the plants die. As I said, with the stuff I have bought--so far, so good. I have bought my coir from American Soil Products in Richmond, Ca (Bay Area). Its about $8 for the bag.

Jon

Rinseing the rootball often reduces the rootball to a hair like structure as noted above. Note that "rootball" is the name for roots and dirt, remove all the dirt and you have hair not ball.
Why use peat then repot when it rots. You put peat in there to decay and provide food for your plant so why remove it when it is doing what you put it in there for. Peat, bonemeal, bloodmeal and other things that rot should negate the need for fertilizer, so which have you cut out?
If you use non rotting culture, vermiculite, sand, perlite and LECA (COIR rots) and feed a balanced AV food why repot? Flush on some schedule or always run some water through the pot to the sewer and enjoy the plant. Works for me. Since, there are so many other things to worry about such as type of water used! Tap, rain, distilled or RO? Is your fertilizer matched to your water and your soil? Is it to produce plant growth or flowers?
;-))
Julysun
Houston

Julysun

- what works for you doesn't always works for all. Climate is different and humid Houston has different conditions than Utah.

You need to repot every 6 to 12 months and lower your plant = otherwise you will end with a palm tree with an ugly bare stem. The second consideration - is - peat deteriorates and becomes too acid - and AVs like more or less neutral soil - and you cannot leach it enough to keep it neutral. So it is a normal practice - to get it out, cut a bottom quarter of the root ball off, add fresh soil on the top and under the bottom - so during the course of 2-3 years you replace all soil.

And - do not be so sure that you already know what's best - this forum is full of great new ideas - so try some on a single plant or 2 - you may be pleasantly surprised with the results (and may be totaly disgusted as well). Again - whatever Jon_D shares - it is a result of many many years of a successful growing of all kind of award winning gesneriads - he should write a book I think.

I.

Okay, betraying my ignorance, what's LECA?

Korina

Hi - Korina -

you can google it - but as far as I can remember it it is Light Expanded Clay Aggregate - it is baked clay balls - they were used in the construction business forever - as light filling and insulation - when this kind of clay gets heated = it expands like a popcorn. It comes in several sizes and makers - one of the best is PromAgra - and lately it was used as a semi-hydroponic medium for orchids and violets and whatnot. The pot is filled with these thingies, water with fertilizer is sitting on the bottom - and moves up to the roots by the capillary action. Looks like it works OK, the maker says that you can recycle it by washing - but I read that it gets covered with fertilizer salts and better to change it while repotting.

I have several orchids and I am considering trying it on them. With several hundred violets and gesneriads - I am Ok with wicking and trays - but orchids - need individual approach.

Cheers

I.

Aaaah. Ignorance is swept away on the tide of knowledge. Thanks, Irina.

Korina