If you look close enough at any fish shop, be it Petco/Petsmart, Private owned, and even the fish department at Wal-Mart or a discount store, with a few exceptions, you will find unethical practices. The sad part is alot of the staff at these places only know what is taught to them by the owner/vendors. The truth is that Wal-mart,Petco and Petsmart have very sophisticated filtration systems that have UV sterilization and all the bells and whistles. The only problem is even the best tools operated wrong dont do the job. It is hard to be angry with the staff at these places because they usually are payed very little and are not trained properly. As with any purchase these days you have the responsibility to research the facts. Buying a car, vacuum cleaner or even a bar of soap. There are some exceptions some businesses are ethical and will only sell what they think of as the best. In the past I boycotted certain stores because of their practices. Soon I found that I had very few places to shop, if any. I do and will buy items from the chain, as well as the Local Fish Shops(LFS's). It's a matter of $$$. In Private LFS's I will speak directly to the owner about discrepancies with practices and items sold. One particular owner was very responsive to comments and I actually was able to convince her to "do the right thing". She owned the store for 25-30 years and was set in her ways. After getting to know me, and my persistance (as well as business) she broke down and investgated the issue and thanked me in the end. In the end as a consumer you tend to take the advise of people who tell you what you want to hear, it is only human to do so. I shop for equiptment where I get the best deal. I shop for fish only at stores who have ethical practices and always QT them for a month before introducing them into a "show" tank. I have bought fish from Petco and had good luck. But before I did I would frequent the store and check up on maintainance and health. I find that it depends on the person who runs the fish dept. per store. I can go to a Petco that is more local but the care their blows.This goes for the other chain stores mentioned.

I agree, but it should be on managements shoulders to ensure places like Petco etc train their hired help and make them meet a set of standards in keeping and handling critters. As to wages paid, I think most get a fair wage for what tuype work they do, and to arbitraily shrug your responsibiities of the job because your not getting paid enough is a poor excuse.......They knew what they had to do when they took the job, as well as conditions and wages they were receiving. I complained one time at a Petsmart store on how a DoJo loach was finally netted......at the time i made the comment to the associate that was in the fish department that did the netting.......she shrugged it off, so I went to the manager......who listened to what I had to say, then went and got that associate and had a talk with her.......Manager then said I can rest assured that will not happen again.....The reply I got from Petco in regards to the dude and his handling of the fish by hand also got a good reply from the head offices, with intentions of making things right......now if its half hearted make the customer seem like things changed or if they will actually make things happen in that store is yet to be seen....but Petco seemed sincere in their response....

As for bargains.....

My local marine fish only dealer had a huge stock of nice Red Sea wave tanks and Vases with hob filters and power compact lights that he bought when the PICO type tanks were the up and coming thing, but for somereason they did not fly around here as in other areas,m and folks still wantd larger sw setups. So after stumbling over these "dead" stock items he put them on a clearance sale........The wave tanks are 2 gal, and the vases are 1 gal and both have nice HOB filters. Lights came in 7 or 13 watts, with 50/50 bulbs or any other flavor of bulbs available as well.....I bought everything he had. The tanks were all formed glass, and exceptionally well made, and originally had a retail price of $40.....Filters were $12.00 and lights ranged from 23 to 15 dollars......I got the tanks for $6.00 each, Filters for $3, and lights for $6 and $9 dollars each.......and he threw in the 1 gal vases.........which come with a hob filter just like the separate ones he sold. So needless to say some got turned into pico reef tanks, but most of them now house a bunch of Betta's, and I don't think there is one room where there is not at least 1 fish tank setup. Even the bathrooms have a tank or two in it. I'm retired so talking care of them all is not a big deal.

Most pet shops sell a standard 10 gal tank for a very cheap price. They get you hooked on a cheap set up and figure you'll buy a bigger more expensive setup in a few months. If you keep bettas its all you'll ever need. A much "betta" choise than the death traps they sell for bettas.

But in the wild they live in shallow puddles. 10 gallons seems very big.

Ginger the shallow puddle story is a bunch of crap. The puddles they speak of are created by monsoons.To the natives in thialand and areas bettas come from a "puddle" could be we call a small pond. If you think about what would happen to a shallow puddle at the end of a sunny day how would a fish survive or procreate? The bettas sold in petshops are not wild caught (most common ones) they are farm raised and are hybrids. The wild bettas are alot less colorful than the hybrids and almost an inch larger. This is one of the many misconceptions about this fish. Its a good example of what I meant about telling the buyer what they want to hear. I think Minaku posted a great example of a "puddle" and or "rice paddie". It is in a thread hear from about 2 months ago I would guess.

Okay, first of all, I didn't specify the size of the puddles so I could have been talking about pond sized or a hole in a parking lot.

Also, I did attempt to keep bettas in an aquarium that was filtrated, airated and 29 gallons. The fish succumbed to early deaths because they had to swim all the ways to the top of the tank to get food and to breath in air (which they do b/c they have labyrinth organs) and the currents at the top pushed them around which stressed the fish.

Then they had to go all the ways to the bottom to rest on something, which is what they usually do b/c they're not good at staying afloat for long b/c of their longated fins and tails.

And I wasn't saying anything about how Petco treats their animals but simply stating that they have deep discounts on products.

My bettas are very happy in their betta tanks and live much longer than any that I've kept in a fully set up aquarium.

I don't keep mind in tiny, tiny cup sized bowls with a plant sitting in the water that I expect them to feed off of. I keep them in gallon sized bowls/tanks or a little larger with a few floating aquatic plants to keep the water cleaner (btween changes) and a few snails. And I feed them once a day.

"Then they had to go all the ways to the bottom to rest on something, which is what they usually do b/c they're not good at staying afloat for long b/c of their longated fins and tails."

Well... hmmm.. quite honestly, my bettas don't rest on the bottom of their tanks, they prefer making bubblenests and cruising around on top taking gulps of air from time to time.

If they rest, they rest amongst the plants I have floating up at top, not at the bottom.

Ginger, I agree with Woeisme about the puddle theory. It confussed me at first also. Then I saw a photo on the web(maybe it was the thread Minaku posted)that showed a picture of a "puddle". It made me change my whole perception of how to house my Bettas. They all now reside in five (and a six gallon)tanks. All the tanks have filtration and plenty of room to swim. I did recently have one fatality(though I doubt it was due to the betta having "too much"room).
Have to agree with Skygee,my four bettas all swim constantly,make bubble nests,explore and in general seem to appreciate the fact that they are 'stuck' in a tank with 'too much' room. They only seem to be at the bottom of their tanks at night occasionally. I sometimes find them resting inside their caves. Other than that they are swimming,sometimes resting in plants near the top,working on their bubble nests and of course,eating.
Take care.
Grice

I have a Betta living in a 10 Gallon tank by himself and all day long he swims and swims playing with a fake goldfish decoration I have in the tank. I use fake plants to break the current of the filter. I leaned the fake plant up against the filter discharge and I have never had a problem with the current because I have lessened it. He is happy and not sitting on the bottom. He surfaces for air and then goes on with his business. His business is to make bubble nests and challenge the fake goldfish to duel..... He has been in this setup for a long time.

So I guess we need to get a defined description of just how large a puddle is. A betta in a community tank or larfge tank should not be stressed. I have lots of males in the various tanks I have around here, that range from 2 gal to 90 gal FW setup, and they do fine........I can hardly see how swimming up 18 to 24 inches is gonna stress out a betta, nor is a current. Odds are somewhere in that tank the betta will find a suitable place to hang.....mine do and some of my tanks have powerheads and good current flows....I do plant my tanks fairly heavy but they fit right in with most fish as long as there are no fin nippers in the tanks like barbs etc.....The bettas I have in 20 gal half barrels outside love going down and scrounging around the bottom and often find them up under the spillways from the other tanks that flows into each other (have 7 half barrels setup, so that water flows from one to another and water is pumped back to top half barrel from lowest half barrel....)

It is a rare betta that prefers having less space to more. If your betta was struggling for air it was because of old age or illness. Otherwise the fish should have had no problem getting to the top, even with a filter current.

Ginger, it sounds as if you didn't give your bettas any help. Of course because of their longer fins and slower movement a strong current would blow them around the tank. Bettas also like to sleep by the surface of the water, have places to hide, and different levels of foliage to keep them stimulated and happy. Your betta would not be able to sleep at the top of the tank if he had nothing to hold himself against in a current created by a power filter.

I keep one of my bettas in a five gallon tank with a rather strong filter, but I have set his tank up in such a way as to divert the water flow and disperse it among different areas of the tank. There is a rather large section that is almost completely still water thanks to all the large and leafy plants I have in the way of the current. When my fish wants to play or exercise a bit he'll swim right at the current and have a grand ol' time. When he wants to rest he'll sleep on a plant, on his heater, in his barrel, on top of the filter itself, or wedge himself between plant stalks on the bottom. It's in this kind of setup that he is the most happy because his water is warm, he has some room (although I would prefer to give him a 10 gallon), he has variety in his home (and I change the decor every month or so) and comfortable places to rest.

I did post a picture of a beautiful rice paddy some time ago. You can Google "rice paddies" for yourself in Google Image Search and see exactly how large and beautiful a habitat a wild betta comes from. We as betta keepers should try to duplicate these conditions as closely as we can for a high quality of life.

Ginger - My intensions where not to offend you, I was responding to "But in the wild they live in shallow puddles. 10 gallons seems very big." I assumed you where new to keeping bettas and fell for the line that some unknowing salesperson gives that they live in puddles, alot of people (myself for one) get the impression of the hole in the parking lot. With the little cup they are displayed in how could anyone not get that impression? In Wal-Mart a disclaimer is posted over the betta display headed "Why These Fish Are Kept In Cups" , a load of non-sence, Sorry for the assumption, you know what they say about assuming. In fact also shop Petco/Petsmart/Walmart, I am always looking for a bargain for supplies or may need something quickly for a project. The point I failed to make was that I hate when consumers are lied to or missinformed, especially in a hobby that requires care of living things. Sorry for any missed communications.

I meant that they rested on the bottom of the 29 gallon tank. The don't do that in their bowls unless it's night. Then they'll either go into their caves or rest on the plants at the top. I have a really nice broken conch in one bowl that has shelves that they'll sit on at night.

I think they should be brutally honest when it comes to living things too. It's much like hermit crabs, which also sell like hot cakes for some reason.

Everyone brings some home from the beach and yet, most people don't know that they need high levels of humidity and diggable substrate amongst other things.

But then, why would you assume that they would need those things when they sell them in wire cages with pebbles on the bottom? And no one will tell you that those set ups are slow deaths for hermit crabs when you're buying them.

I kept wondering why mine died until I took responsibility and looked them up and now they're in a 20 gallon aquarium with a wading pool, 5" of sand, a BUNCH of things to climb on, reptile heating pads and lights and the floor is littered with assorted sized and shaped shells.

I have had my oldest ones for over two years now and all of them constantly bury themselves to molt and have to move into larger shells.

That was long... anyways, I guess that the main thing here is that a lot of companies don't care as long as they're making money. And a lot of people don't care as long as it's cheap and pretty and they have something to swim around in those flower vases for a while.

The good pet owners take the initiative and find out for themselves what is in the best interests of their animals.

IMHO, a ten gallon tank is overkill for a domestic betta. Can't hurt it, but it's more than the gallon or two that the fish needs.

If I were keeping WILD bettas, I would probably opt for ten gallons per pair.

I do feel that the little cups that they are in at the pet store are much too small.

3 gallons should be bare minimum for 1 betta because of its adult size. The more water rule is the same for bettas, as with any other fish. Any betta I have owned used the full tank and was and are very active. A consistant reply when asked on a board, How long does a Betta live? People who keep them in a 5gallon or more filtered tank will say 3-7+ years. Kept in a bowl or small tank

I have raised in my lifetime no less than 4500 bettas to adulthood.....in plastic cups. Half moons, deltas, crowntails, wilds (Pla-Kats), you name it. Those fish need a 10 gallon tank about as much as you and me all NEED to live in the Vanderbilt mansion. Is it nice? sure. is it neccessary? NO. The Betta Splendens, as we know it in the aquarium hobby, is a fish that no longer resembles its wild counterpart. The fins are grossly over-exagerated to the point where swimming IS impared. anyone who has seen a wild native betta or Pla-Kat as they are called, would notice how much faster and agile the wild specimen is. They travel through the water column with ease and can handle light current just fine. The fancy tail varieties sold in stores on the other hand, have tails that are in some cases the same length as the body!!! how is that good for swimming? Anyone who breeds fish understands that what might be considered "humane" to us is idiocy for a fish. FISH ARE NOT PEOPLE!!! They care about expansive real estate and lush luxurious surroundings about as much as humans care about finding and eating copepods and small zooplankton every night for dinner. The ultimate life goal for a betta is to breed...procreate....replicate. That is what it wants to do. They are bubble nest builders, and guess what they cant do in a tank with even a light current? go on....guess. Did anyone say "build a nest?" If you did, you win, and hopefully so does your betta. Large tanks with filters and castles and plants and men in diving bells and sunken treasure ships are not for Bettas...they are for US!!! People need those things...not fish. In fact, I can guarantee that everyone who has a 10 gallon or bigger tank with a filter that creates a surface disturbance has NEVER had a betta breed in that tank....EVER. Those fish are man-made hybrids....with man-made limitations. Those long beautiful fins we love to look at on our fish are there for US to look at.....US!!! They aren't made for a fish to traverse a long water column. As I said, I have raised thousands of Bettas for over 20 years, since I was a teenager. It is a great and rewarding hobby, but lets not forget that the true job of a fishkeeper is to provide the best possible environmet for his/her pets. And guess who decides that the environment is best suited for that fish? THE FISH DECIDES! By either thriving and attempting to breed , or by slowly withering away over the course of months and ultimately dieing. To everyone here please remember that if you want to have a beautiful planted and landscaped aquarium , then understand that look you are going for IS FOR YOU! The fish dont care, so long as the habitat you provide it is the habitat it was meant to be in. And the fish will prove that the habitat is correct by breeding.

BigP---- What is the average lifespan of the bowl kept vs. ones that you have kept? I have had 2 that lived well over 5 years. Both kept in a 10 gallon or larger aquarium with other fish. One thing that seems consistant in the bowl vs. 3+ gal cycling aquarium is lifespan and frequency of disease. In most instances aquarium kept will outlive bowl kept. A betta is usualy a fishkeepers first experience these days,more often then not. At the end of the day a fish kept in a bowl that is 1 gal will have a greater amount of ammonia in it than one that is kept in 3 gals. Kept in a filtered aquarium that is cyleing it will have no detectable ammonia. Ammonia being a major stressor for fish will greatly affect the slime coat. The fish is then more suceptable to disease. The point is you have a better chance for success with a larger amount of water. All fish are certainly in our small aquariums for our pleasure. Plants, aeration, and other decor are also functional as well as astectically pleasing. Why not give a fish less than ideal living conditions if better ones can be provided. If the fishkeeper isn't interested in keeping the fish more than a few years, doesn't mind loosing it prematurely to disease, or isn't concerned about treating it for a disease (which in the end is usually way more expensive and PITA than buying or upkeeping an aquarium) thats fine. Most posters are usually concerned why they have so many problems because they are under the impression that these fish are indistructable. This impression is the BS that is ofensive.

Drygulch, how much room does a human need? You could easily exist in a 6'X6' cell but could you lead a normal happy life? To me 10gal is a minimum for any fish. Ginger I have bettas in my 150gal tank and 130gal indoor pond and there very healthy.

Big Paulie, I like your name. Lol. Sorry...

One other question that I'm sure can be answered here b/c this is such a hot thread.

Kids in dorms keep betta fish b/c of the small tank thing. And I've heard of them putting a mirror in the tanks.

Is this cruel? To keep the betta in aggressive mode or could actually be beneficial by exercising the fish?

This would answer my other question...
I have a nice tank but it has a mirrored backing. Would this be a bad tank b/c of that feature?

I bought it for hermit crabs but the description was wrong and it's not suitable for that so I can this tank sitting around. It would be nice to put to use.

Okay, I actually have another question. Do bettas have a pale area around their gills (I have a porr memory so can't remember when I got him if he had it)or is it some kind of fungus?

I'm already treating for fungus just incase but it would be nice to know so I can stop if it's unnessicary.

To see if the pale area is just that. You can use a magnifying glass to see if it is raised up. If so it could be a parasite. I'll take a stab at the mirror ?. I would think that the constant reflection would make the fish flare and the preditory instinct would take over. After a while he "may" get used to it and wouldn't effect it either way. I would just do it in small doses rather than constantly. As far as medication. Depending on what you are using, it is better to attempt to identify the disease than precautionary treatment. Fish disease is hard to diagnose most times, with the exception of finrot,and ich. The symptoms are similar in most, one being loss of color. Sometimes older fish experience a color loss, kind of like the way humans grey.abc

So after reading all these posts, I shouldn't purchase a betta for my 29 gallon tank? I don't want to make the betta unhappy or even worse, sick. A betta would prefer a small enclosed bowl to a big roomy tank then, that's what I gather from the majority of posts above.

Linda

A 29 gallon tank is fine for the Betta. The point is the more water, the better chance that water wont become as toxic if something goes wrong. You only change 25-40% weekly so it is somewhat easier IMO. Also in bowls you dont have the option of a heater for areas with cooler climates. They are tropical fish 72-82F is ideal. I am moving one I purchased a while back into a 29Gallon this weekend. If the betta is a first fish for you this will allow you to try others in the same tank as long as they are compatable. Yes in the wild they stay in somewhat shallow water that is murky and probably dont roam too much because of teritoral reasons. But that is an unfair comparison to a small bowl because in the wild the entire rice paddie/puddle/whatever has an eco-system to support it. A bowl does not. If kept in a bowl with some JavaMoss or other aquatic plant in a warmer climate area (The Southern States) that has descent tap water and is well maintained it could very well live for several years. The fish has the best odds with a larger tank. I have one in a 10 gallon QT tank, It loves the flow of the powerhead I have in it for filtration. I had to diffuse the flow because he kept swimming into it and it would push him across the tank. The fish enjoyed I think. He kept the routine up continuously. I was affraid he would end up bashing his brains out. Every betta I've owned seemed to enjoy the water flow. Maybe it gives them relief from the burden of the enlarged fins. I dont know. I had a male fancy tailed guppy that had a unusually large tail that would constantly let a bubble wand push him arround. The only reason(s) I can think of for concern about surface agitation or low flow filters with bettas is possible injury because of the large fins, kinda like a wind in the sail. Or because they would have trouble with the bubble nest. They dont need one unless you are breeding though.