Will someone else take this on?

Maggiemae2006,

I can only offer some of the things I think could be why some decide to use chemicals.

1. Ease of use. Chemicals are easy to apply. Organics call for a lot of work to make.
2. Lack of knowledge. Some people know not of compost, lasagna beds, mulching, or alternative fertilizers.
3. Never used organics. Some know of organics, but do not know of the benefits offered.
4. Dont care. Some could care less, and do not believe what those who know say of organics.
5. My dad used them. One of my favorites.
6. Cost. Chemicals are much cheaper to buy, and easier to find (less travel)
7. Effectiveness. There is no denying the effectiveness of chemicals.
8. They wonÂt hurt me. Some believe chemicals do them or their family no harm.
9. Profit. Farmers get a big bang for their buck with little effort.
10. Stubbornness. There is comfort using the known, thus refusal to change.

Just a few of the things I can think of, I am sure more will be offeredÂ

Blutranes

Ease of use? You have to work to make the money to buy the chemicals.

Thanks for the post, interesting but I don't want the thread to move to why.

"Finally, why buy nitrogen unless you want to harm the soil. Feed the soil organisms and let God do his work."

???

Blutranes

Blu, I think you know but I'll bite.
When chemical nitrogen becomes anaerobic it changes to ammonia gas or nitrous oxide both are volatized, lost and harmful to the roots. And, the soil is alternately aerobic and anaerobic.

Most soils have sufficient P & K so adding more upsets the balance. P & K & N that the plants can use are mainly tied up in the soil organisms and not really needed. When these organisms die or are eaten these minerals are released and made available to the plants mainly as proteins.

Maggiemae,

As with any other public forum, when you start a post, you should be prepared for it to take a life of it's own, have multitudes of opinions, and head to any of the 'W's.

Especially in this forum which is full of knowledge, polarized opinions, and passion about soil, compost, etc.

Having said that, I have a tendency to be more of the organic type, yet at times do feel a need for that extra 'umph'.

In any case, do proceed with the conversation. Interesting.

tiffy_z5_6_can, what I'm saying is; you don't really get the extra umph. Which I know sounds like you must believe "me", what I'm hoping for is scientific sources that do not support this position or agree.

Yes, I understand the direction thing but that doesn't mean I can't try to keep it within narrow lines.

I feel this is one of the basic underpinnings of the organic approach. That is it will take care of itself if we feed the soil and that may not be necessary if the food (organic matter) is delivered in the natural process.

The P & K are usually there and the nitrogen fixing bacteria provide the N.

maggiemae2006,

This may be what you are looking for in regards to your question. This lady did a study to see if she could sustain a farm without outside inputs save organic matter. It is one of the classic studies of the early organic movement...

Blu, Lady Eve Balfour, very interesting. Her work shows the end result of what I'm addressing on one specific aspect of the whole.

"Another factor limiting the utility of free-living N2 fixers is the fact that they will not fix N2 when exposed to even very low levels of fertilizer nitrogen."
Dr David Zuberer

So we get an organic process started and throw a little chemical Nitrogen on the soil which last who knows how long and stops the process. In fact as long as we put fertilizer nitrogen on the soil the process will never start.

Meg,

Ammonium does not leach much, it is a cation and binds to exchange sites on soil mineral surfaces.

In anerobic conditions nitrate N is lost as nitrogen gas (N2)

maggiemae2006,

From what I see Dr David Zuberer has nitrogen fixing bacteria beyond a science.

Since I do not use cover crops in my gardening because I don't till my plots and because I have access to tons of organic matter I am at a disadvantage. It is easier/cheaper for me to make compost than to plant then till in.

Had I not misunderstood your original post I would not have posted because I have no experience with the question you present. Sorry for the misunderstanding...

Blutranes

What exactly the point of the initial post? I sincerely hope it is not that agricultural crop production is similiar to home gardening or that either are comparable to ornamental horticulture. The differences in nutrition management are mind boggling, and to most, agonizingly confusing.

I find the initial post to be at worst deliberately misleading, at best blindingly myopic, and at all times to be blatantly antagonistic and densely incomprehensible. And yes, I realize what the intention of that post was.

Why buy nitrogen?

Because you have a lawn and want it to be green at all times during the growing season.

Because you are a farmer and would like to buy the little tyke a new coat for the winter.

Because you have a crop that is nitrogen intensive and your soil, for a variety of possible reasons, just doesn't have the necessary nutrients to support it.

Because you are a hobby-ist in plant breeding and ammonia is useful in forcing variegation in plants.

Because you operate a closed cropping system where all inputs are directly in your control (such as a greenhouse), and lack of nitrogen equals a crop that even Walmart couldn't move, no matter how cheap.

Because you are a dairy farmer and frozen nitrogen is how you store semen. Fun stuff. You know those unbreakable combs? Stick one of those in there for about 20 seconds, drop it from a table onto a hard floor, it'll shatter like mom's antique crystal vase when it falls off the bookcase (whistling innocently).

Further, such comments are why I am seriously considering disconnecting the internet. I realize these forums are where like minded people gather, but ignorance colored as well-intentioned crusading is still ignorance.

I also find that comment irresponsible at best. I understand the intention, really I do. But I fail to see how the conglomerates who are responsible for shooting Kennedy are also responsible for me possessing the necessary knowledge to make informed decisions for my own particular situation. The ability I have to pay my bills and feed my family comes from the soil. Do you really think I am going to do something I consider negligent, irresponsible, and damaging?

My background, and education, is agronomy and horticulture. I am the son of a farmer, who was the son of a farmer, who was himself the son of a farmer. I operate an 1100 acre farm, 600 in crops, the rest in pasture. In addition, 24 acre archard. 9 acre produce garden. 12 acre nursery, mostly tree and shrubs. 3 acre container nurery, mostly shrubs, a few perennials. For personal amusement, I also run a 10,000 square foot greenhouse where I propagate primarily floral crops and houseplants.

I know a bit about soil fertility and management. Trust me, the needs of each of the above are different. Some I learned in college, some from doing it the way my dad it, and some I learned from my own personal experience. Would I buy fertilizer (of any kind) if I felt it unnecessary? Seeing as my fertilizer bill this last year was the size of a year's tuition for college I think we can safely assume that question is rhetorical. By my calculations, I cover about 85% of my annual nitrogen requirement by crop rotation and adding organic matter (and yes, I till it in...with a really big tractor). In the orchard, produce garden and pasture, I cover the entire nitrogen requirement by these methods.

The ability to be able to continue to spread manure is rapidly disappearing. This year, one of my new neighbors called the cops because I was cleaning the barn one weekend.
I don't call the cops when they have their parties and try to go cow tipping (I move the bull into that pasture, all cows with calves out). I expect to hear more of these complaints in the future. Some people have no business living in the country.

heptacodium,

"Further, such comments are why I am seriously considering disconnecting the Internet. I realize these forums are where like minded people gather, but ignorance colored as well-intentioned crusading is still ignorance."

I truly hope you reconsider your thoughts of disconnection from the Internet thus leaving the forum. You have helped me immensely to better understand that those who use chemicals do so exercising great responsibility. There are numerous studies showing both sides of farming. The search now being for the correct, most advantagous for all humanity is the focus today. The position of "them-vs-us" would better serve all by being changed to "them-and-us", resulting finally in "us" IMO. Learning both sides of any situation allows everyone to come to a conclusion based on knowledge and experience, not "just because I think its right". Your post provided insight into the why, something that can come up lacking on message forums.

Then too the newer member to gardening/farming will be given a choice based on full knowledge rather than how many people in my post said it. Your post has shown that the farmer that uses chemicals is not some guy wearing a straw hat, with a cheek full of chewing tobacco, is out slinging 34-0-0 so deep it looks like it just snowed outside. He too is using organic methods to protect and enhance the soil.

If my listing of "why" offended you that was not my intent (been saying that a lot around here lately). Your post provided me a chance to look at myself and see if I am not careful I may appear to be someone I am not. For this reason more than any I requested your reconsideration. This may appear selfish, but in reality it will serve us all well

Blutranes

heptacodium, your post sounds like the rant of one who had a little to much. Were you tipping a few late or were tipping a few all nite then posted.

heptacodium said...
I find the initial post to be at worst deliberately misleading, at best blindingly myopic, and at all times to be blatantly antagonistic and densely incomprehensible.

All I can say is heptacodium is totally unaware of how organic agriculture works and is unwilling (or unable) to learn about it. blutranes addressed the problem rather comprehensively, but I've seen it down here, too. Even when ranchers tour another farm where organic methods and materials are successfully achieving record profits for the entire county, the ranchers on tour inevitably go home knowing little more than they came in with.

For example if heptacodium visited with George, the bank president of Mason, Texas, he would see a ranch with 750 acres fenced for brangus cow/calf pairs. Almost 20 years ago George ran out of money on chemicals, seed, etc., so he found a better way to ranch. Now he is buying zero seed, zero fertilizer, zero herbicide, zero insecticide, zero hormones, and zero antibiotics. His only input is water and minerals based on what the soil tests show he needs (mostly calcium as the cattle need plenty). Looking at his fields you see grass growing tall from fence to fence. With his calves selling for $700 or so, and his costs per animal down around $35, it should be no wonder that he is setting records with his profit. But when his neighbors look, all they can say is, "George gets more rain than we do." George's stocking rate is twice what his neighbors can sustain. As the neighbors sell off their acreage to feed the family, George is buying it up.

Or heptacodium could visit Homestead Healthy Farms in Fredericksberg, Texas where they use the same methods with both cattle and chickens.

Or heptacodium could visit the Texas Panhandle where cotton is king. There is a small group of cotton producers who use no fertilizer, etc. Furthermore they use no water. They fully rely on rain. Their input is a gallon of molasses per acre sprayed 4 times a season. While their yeild is not always up to their irrigated neighbors, their profit always exceeds their neighbors simply because the cost of water, pipe, pumps, pump repair, pipe repair, buildings (and insurance) to house all the irrigation equipment, etc. suck the profit out of their neighbors' gross.

Or maybe heptacodium should visit the wholesale greenhouse in Gonzales, Texas where they grow liriope for the retail industry. Before changing from sterilized soil with osmocote to an organically active compost based growing medium, they had losses due to fungus on the order of 30%. Now they have 100% yield per flat and they can go to market 1 week earlier because the plants grow faster.

Or maybe heptacodium should drive past the copper strip mines in Miami, Arizona. The 200 foot tall piles of lifeless dust sat for 60 years with nary a weed taking root. A year after applying a herd of cattle (no fertilizer, no hormones, etc. (same as George above), and for the past dozen years, that pile of dust is a pasture reminiscent of the Great Plains. All they do is run the cattle over it twice a year.

If an organic approach can work in the middle of the Sonoran desert, on strip mine tailings, there's no reason to think it can't work in soil in Missouri, Virginia, Nevada, Louisiana, or anywhere else.

"If an organic approach can work in the middle of the Sonoran desert, on strip mine tailings, there's no reason to think it can't work in soil in Missouri, Virginia, Nevada, Louisiana, or anywhere else."

Sorry, but even after re-reading heptacodium's post, I can't find where he says organic methods can't work.

Or have a look at what's happened in Cuba since the Soviets cuts and run.

blu, your post is not what I had issues with. If anything, I considered it quaint and amusing. Somewhere around here I have a list of reasons/excuses that were given after workplace accidents occured--the two lists were surprisingly similiar.

maggie, what you got was the sanitized version. Check my initial post, the first follow-up to this thread. If you really want the drunk version, never let it be said I failed to accomodate the willing. That's me, a people-pleaser.

My issue was with the concept regarding alternative viewpoints. If I failed to make myself clear on that point, let me know. I'll make every attempt to clarify how I feel.

I can understand how one would feel I attacked organic methodologies. I didn't. I believe I briefly described how I utilize certain organic practices (and issues I am beginning to face because of it). If that is displaying a lack of education---no, knowledge---no, awareness of alternative management practices (I refuse to call agreeing to something on political principal either education or knowledge) or an unwillingness to accept divergent views, please, let me know.

When I say I make what I feel to be the best decision for my situation, understand I do so knowing what and why I do so--and what the possible alternatives are. I won't justify my decision...it's mine. Saying I have to justify it is insulting.

I did learn something from this thread, however:

Me education is sorely lacking. Those years spent in college, not to mention all the money I paid to be there, were wasted.

heptacodium, I think you need to keep in mind that you are coming from a different set of circumstances to most here and you realise this. Most people here are coming from a home gardener perspective, and I tend to agree that synthetic ferts are not necessary in that situation. There is a lot of damage being done by the rampant use of synthetic ferts, and when it comes to someones garden where there is no livelihood at stake and there is no danger in attracting bugs or other wildlife which wouldnt necessarily be welcome in a farming situation, you do have to wonder about the logic of home gardening in a synthetic way. Whether you read it that way or not, unless someone is specifically talking about farming or commercial operations, it's pretty much a given theyre approach is relating to the home gardener situation, and I think it's important to keep that distinction in mind as you read these forums.

me, personally, Im undecided about whether or not synthetics are necessary in farming or plant production etc, I accept that I cant speak from that point of view, and I also realise there is always a bottom line and if the US is anything like aus, the farmers are getting squeezed out in favour of cheap imports and many just cant keep going.

I do feel pretty strongly though, that when it comes to a home garden organic is the way to go, because so many gardeners do not see past their own fenceline, and have no idea or no interest in the bigger picture and what it is doing to the environment.

TG

Okay I'm not sure I have a problem with heptacodium now or not. I guess I do. I believe Maggiemae gets the idea of organic gardening. Here original post was rather succinct and left about 1,000 pages out, but that's okay. But heptacodium's opening statement I found to be offensive. Or did I miss some form of rich irony in there?