Thanks for the link. It gives me a better understanding of why adding organic matter helps plants take in iron in my alkaline soil. In addition to bringing the pH of the soil down, humates act as chelating agents. I'm not sure how much of what I've spread on top has become humus, but since I've been adding more OM to my lawn, my formerly chlorotic maple has been improving greatly.

Here is the wikipedia entry for humus.

From what I've read, humus is pretty close to what is often referred to as "finished" compost. You can't distinguish the original materials that made it up and it won't break down any further. I think one differentiation is that what we usually consider finished compost is finished as far as we can tell by looking at it, but (if I read the original link correctly) with humus, it is at a microscopic level. What we usually consider finished compost is probably still undergoing some decomposition, but at a very slow rate.

Bpgreen,

Understanding the "why" gives one a much more solid knowledge base to make a good decision. I used to put compost on my lawn but stopped a couple of years ago due to the growth rate, it forced me to have to cut the lawn too often and I have a very large lawn area. However, due to the dynamic results of foliar spraying of different teas I do spray all the trees I use the leaves to make compost with. My logic being that if the trees are getting better nutrition the leaves will possess the same attribute.

The Wikipedia site brought something to my attention that I question now. Are they saying that humus contains no microorganisms? My understanding is that this is the case, which is why it is so important to put compost on top of the layer of humus. The microbes within the compost feed on the nutrient bank within the humus and then feed the plants.

The humus site is loaded with information that does take some time to absorb, at least for me it does. The more I learn about humus and compost the better I can plan a successful garden. I have found that compost continues to break down until it reaches the humus stage, then it slows taking years (humin, 1140 years; humic acid, 1235 years; and fulvic acid, 870 years) to return to nothing. The longer compost is allowed to cure the lower the C:N ratio will be. My understanding is that this is what gives compost the ability to act as a fertilizer. As long as humus is not disturbed it will continue to serve the garden, adding each year only serves to build the reserve. Well worth the effort IMO

Blutranes

Blutranes, this may sound as if I'm talking down to the list, absolutely not so.

Many including myself do not have the volume or time or will to work a compost pile to a "finished" state. I look at a forest or meadow in southern Indiana and they are all growing abundantly. This all happens with the natural organic matter recycling into soil or plants.

For those who want to take the time to "finish" compost then it will reap rewards. For those who don't, transferring fresh, partially decomposed, etc, etc organic matter to the surface of the soil will also reap rewards. Many landscapes or produce gardens begin with construction or cleared ground so we start with all or most of the topsoil including the organisms gone and we are down to sort of dead soil. Now, I suggest getting organic matter on top of that soil in whatever form is available soon.

Back to humus produced carefully and completely will reap great rewards and is worth the effort if you have space, time, etc.

Finally thank you for the patience and understand I don't argue but I do state my position bluntly at times which, I know can offend.

Maggiemae2006,

It definitely doesnt sound like you are talking down in the least. It sounds like you have embraced a different line of thinking and are gathering information to come to a conclusion of your own. Such a discussion will only enlighten all who choose to read or respond.

I live in a forest, surrounded by nature in all its glory. My closest neighbor is over a mile away and I am the last house before the county line. The property around the house is 10 acres of cleared land that has had the house my uncle built on it since 1952 according to the inscription on the well. I so wish all could enjoy walking out the door and seeing a hawk soaring overhead, or startle a flock of 20 turkeys eating in the front yard when coming out the door. There is hundreds of miles timber (tree farmers) in all directions; there is life in its natural state everywhere.

Save it to say I understand the situation some contend with not having enough organic matter to do what they wish for their garden. As well I empathize with others who live with physical limitations and cannot participate in gardening due to that reality. I can only speak of the reality I live in, doing my best to neither brag about my fortune or condemn the limits of another. We all have something to offer; to me this is a fair exchange.

If I am not mistaken it was your prior post that I first learned about Glomalin and Dr Sara Wright. In following the link you provided I was motivated to learn more, and I did. I have not been posting on all the message boards for some time because I didnt have anything to say. At the same time I continued to read them all daily, searching for something new about organic gardening that was discovered or something old that had been forgotten.

Compost placed on top of the soil will turn into humus faster than some realize, again it all a matter of time. If you think about it, nature is limited by the amount of matter that falls to the ground. However, we humans can place as much organic matter on the soil that we can find or produce. Nature doesnt have to deal with human traffic for the most part, but we come and go in our gardens regularly. Learning how much to add and what to add is within our control.

Speaking bluntly is much more welcomed IMO than talking in organic code. I must thank you as well for your time and questions

Blutranes

I will admit I kind of breezed over the above posts, BUT well composted compost is not the same as humus. It may have some humus in it, but I would say it is technically incorrect to refer to it as humus. Mined materials sold as humus are not exactly the same as soil humus either, and do not perform the same functions in the soil.

fertilizersalesman,

I must apologize for the original context of this post. This thread was started from another thread that did not have the topic of humus. Thus it would appear to someone who breezes over some of the content that there is no understanding of what humus actually is. I am going to go out on a limb and assume you did not even bother to breeze through the links on this page as well, for if you did bother to breeze over them you would surly realize your insight in what is technically correct is an understatement to say the least. I do appreciate you taking the time to correct what youre breeze-over observed; at least you did attempt to help

Blutranes

The good Professor takes a very long time and uses many words to tell you that humus is the residual orgnaic matter in your soil. Humus is what the Soil Food Web do not readily digest and is one indication of what the level of humus in your soil is. Wikipedias second definiation is one very common error many people make. You cannot buy humus although you can buy what will become humus in your soil.

Kimmsr,

Well, at least you did click on the link and read the definition of humus; it proves you will go see what the page looks like. To have put forth the effort called scrolling you would have avoided this predicament. As well, had your attention span been of a greater dimension you would have discovered the following in the article:

"SOURCES OF HUMIC SUBSTANCES AND THEIR VALUE AS FERTILIZER INGREDIENTS

Humic substances commonly occur within soils, waters, peat, and in carbon containing minerals such as brown coals, low grade lignites, and leonardites. Most all soils and waters on the earth surface contain some humic substances in the form of humin, humic acids (HAs), or fulvic acids (FAS). However the concentration of humic substances in agricultural soils has reached seriously low levels. In general soils contain a higher concentration of humin and humic acids (HAs). In contrast, since fulvic acid (FA) is water-soluble it occurs at relatively high concentrations in both soils and water. Soil humic substances consist of a higher percentage of ring compounds (aromatic) compared to humic substances from water. Fertilizer grade humic substances can be obtained from carbon containing mineral deposits throughout many parts of the world. Within the United States there are several mines and seams of carbon containing mineral deposits suitable for obtaining good agricultural grade humic substances".

Even someone of my limited experience and knowledge can see that what you have stated is incorrect. Now, what I dont understand is how you came to the conclusion that a retired professor from Texas A&M, Wikipedia, and a man (whom I will assume) sells fertilizer do not know what they are talking about and you do? If you happen to look into this thread again, or you hear about it from someone else, please explain that to me if you have time.

I am forever never ceased to be amazed by the ability some possess. Could it possibly be kimmsr that you are just like Yogi, "smarter than the aaaaverage bear"

Blutranes

I have a whole big fat book on humus chemistry at home. Not real exciting reading. I guess that is why I avoided reading the links, just to try and stay awake.

However, I have read several university based studies that have shown that despite the chemical resemblance to soil compounds, mined 'humic' materials do not act like soil humus in the soil. In my job I encourage people to experiment with new products like humates (on a small scale), but we do not sell them because they don't work well enough to be worth the effort and expense.

I have much respect for the knowledge you share on this board. It took me some time to understand the point of view you expressed, yet once I obtained the understanding your words took on an even deeper meaning. Thus we both know your words today are very much true as it relates to mined humic matter. This is the reason I choose to make my own humus; to purchase it seems a waste of money.

Your inability to stay awake can get one in unusual situations. This is the reason I log off when I feel unchallenged. That being that, I continue to appreicate your time spent speaking on this IMO important matter..

Blutranes

Had a friend that did her dissertation on analysis and fate of humic acids in soil. One problem that occured on a very basic level was that there really are 2 or more valid definitions: organic matter that has reached a state of decay where it will be stable for an extended period of time (what is mostly being discussed above), and "finished compost"- which is a pretty amorphous term to get ahold of in itself. So- just as combustion in low oxygen environments will produce much different combustion products, decomposition in lower oxygen environments may lead to different biologically produced waste products. That analogy may even work on a couple of levels, as material may be digested, then that waste may be scavenged and digested by another microbe. In a higher oxygen environment there is almost always the possibility for a reaction with O2 that may render this "intermediate" product useless to the next critter down the chain waiting for a meal, and therefore the end stable product will not be produced.

One arguement that Ive heard is that the mineralization process byproducts are where the biggest value in humus chemistry lies; that is- the humus itself is less important than the chemistry/bio of its production. Turns out that the "finished" product may be food to even simpler microbes, may be absorbed by plants, improves cation exchange capacity, has a buffering effect on pH, and changes soil structure (the last part we knew). So- when I hear about the different properties of "humus", I'm often left wondering "which humus?", and at what level. If it can be digested by a microbe- then for how long would it be stable?

I've also been very interested for a bit in the counter-intuitive chemistry provided by archaea, but aside from being able to digest just about anything- they're not germane.

I should add- humic acid seems to make up a good portion of "humus". It's a set of giant colloidal macromolecules, rather than one simple substance. You would think that a molecule that large would be food for something. The fact that a big organic molecule like that would be fairly stable for centuries is pretty fascinating. I wonder what's been done for research into bioremediation of prions- stable molecules that I DON'T want in my garden :)

I am just a layman if I may say first. My understanding is that it is the chemical reaction results that feed the microbes, not the humus itself. From what I am learning humus or humates remain in the soil for thousands of years save oxygen levels staying the same. Thus, it is the chemicals humic acid and fulvic acid that are doing all the work; the humus is doing the other things you mentioned (CEC, stability and such). I find no logic in defining humus by what is commonly understood to be what caused it to be; that is finished compost. There is also no logic in saying compost is finished, finished what? This whole topic can blow up a thread as you have been a part of a few times.

Then there is the technique your friend used. I still have a time understanding how one can burn all known substance to remove them from humus, and then calling the remains humus. What about the substances you may not have known existed that are within humus? They just discovered Glomalin in the late 90's, so in theory there are many unknown within the soil. I recall reading last year on the "New Scientist" website that they had just discovered 1M more new bacteria within soil. And what were all those new bacteria doing within compost that you did not know they were doing?

Then there is the fact that many do not express that humus is the goal of a gardener/farmer ultimately. As you said earlier, there is humus in compost; most dont even speak on this. Not to mention it is the humic acids in compost tea that gives it the punch with plants. Need I not leave out the dynamic influence foliar sprays have on plants using humic acids? Seems to me all the really powerful chemicals with compost and the soil are avoided to keep from appearing uneducated about soil. This makes no sense to me right now. Guess it will all come out in the wash

Blutranes

IIRC- my friend actually used a chromatographic method to separate out the humic acids. Turns out that you can't isolate pure humic acids of one kind... yet. She didn't look at the other components.

I've not yet been convinced that foliar compost teas have any bigger effect that applying it directly to the soil. It may be, and I've used it, but if anyone has a comprehensive study then I'm really interested. If they are effective (beyond anecdote), then you are correct- we still don't know if it's something chemical or the actual microbes present.

I did some work with organic acids from decomposing rye cover crops in graduate school. What I determined was that biological systems are complicated. In soil science school soil microbiology was the wild and largely unknown while soil organic matter was almost a complete black hole. They had a definition of humus and separated out a couple of things they called humic and fluvic acids, but what exactly any of these materials were and what role they played was pretty much an unknown. There has been a lot of study on the subject since then, but I think to a large degree these things are still not well understood. So I am going by observable effects and not worrying to much about the details. The most important effect seems to be the role organic matter in combination with soil organisms plays in stabilizing soil structure. Soil humus does this very well, 'humates' do not.

Oh man, you forgot to change. Don't worry; you secret is safe with me.

That was one of the things on the page I linked, it quoted studies done using foliar sprays (the page was written this year to my understanding). I have to admit I have my own proof of plants I did this year. Things like 54# watermelons that were rated to 30#. I am reading a commercial site that boasts tomato plants producing fruit layered on the ground over a foot thick. Being me, when I saw that I have allotted a 50x5 raised bed for tomatoes next year. The foliar spray topic is easy to find on the web page, if you get a minute would you mind looking at it and let me know what you think...

Blutranes

I've been reading this thread with interest and have learned a lot from your discussion. Some of it is definitely over my head but interesting anyway.

For what it's worth to you, I'd like to tell you about my experience with humus. A little over 20 years ago I established flower borders along the foundation of our house on the north facing side. Money was a serious concern in this endeavor so instead of investing in a lot of bagged amendments, I "robbed" the adjoining woods of several wheel barrow loads of humus and leaf mold. I did add a little peat moss and composted cow manure. These were added by the double-dig method. These beds have had very little done to them over the years except a light dusting of slow release commercial fertilizer a few years ago and a light cover of shredded bark chips every few years as mulch. The soil is still very friable and fertile and the perennials and annuals (and weeds!) there thrive better than any others in the yard. I have used all these amendments except the leafmold and humus in other beds and they have not done as well.

I know this is far from proof of the benefit of humus but your discussion has made me think the humus might be one of the keys to the success of these beds.

gardener sandy,

Far from not being proof, I view your experience with my own as it relates to getting forest soil. I have had the pleasure to apply a more concentrated volume of humus to my plots and observe plant behavior, as well as using humus as a foliar spray. By being able to compare the results with what professionals have stated provides a measure of confirmation of the results I observed.

Although at first what is said may appear "over my head", it is not hard to get a grasp of what has been communicated. Then too, the more I read, hear, and learn, the less like "Greek", and the more like the "Kings English" it becomes. Thanks for all your first hand knowledge; for it weighs more than any study one can run across

Blutranes

"Nature has an unsurpassed ability to effectively provide nutrients to plants through a small amount of soil humus. The relative small quantity of stable humus in most agricultural soils ranges from 1/10% to 1%. It is a tiny fraction of the total soil volume, but plays a critical role in every function of productive soil. Continuous cropping rapidly depletes soil humus, and soil productivity is reduced as the depletion occurs".

When I read this today it started my mind to thinking. To be specific, what is the difference between farming and gardening? The main thought I had was that our level of organic matter grows faster. It does not take as long as some would believe to build up a good level of humus in a garden, taking into account 1/10% can be critical in soil. I am sure someone adding compost yearly to a garden is building up some level of humus each year as long as that level is not disturbed in a drastic way. Thus, the longer one has been adding compost, the higher the percent of humus is growing. Even a fraction of an increase can be dramatic over time. Keep in mind there can be some humus in homemade compost provided it is allowed to cure for a while.

Anyway, some of the other thoughts about the differences we gardeners enjoy over the farmer are:
1. No heavy equipment on garden plots causing compaction. Garden roots can spread deeper and wider in the softer soil.
2. Traffic is kept to a minimum. Gardeners walk on paths; farmers plow, disc, plant, and cultivate with heavy machinery at different times.
3. Gardeners add compost (mixed components in pile/tumbler with a predictable C:N ratio). Gardeners can add compost that has cured to whatever level they decide: farmers must rely on disc in cover crops of the same plant.
4. Gardeners cover plot with mulch using less water and less of a need to weed; farmers fields are too large to cover.
5. Gardeners can control moisture levels; farmers can as well, as long as the water supply lasts, not to mention the cost.
6. Gardeners weed in spots; farmers disc entire field (again the weight, compaction, and traffic).
7. Gardeners can foliar feed with minimum cost. (For farmers see #6, substitute spray for disc)
8. Gardeners have no fuel bills or maintenance costs.
9. Gardeners can monitor plants closer. Farmers have to spot check.
10. Gardeners can harvest when fruit is ripe; farmers must harvest entire field calculating ripeness.

Many can come up with more I have no doubt, but I am sure you see my point

Blutranes

There is a way to add OM to a farm field.

I'm trying this on a 16 acre plot as an experiment...

I guess time will tell.

pt30,

I was not aware of such a program existed. I should have qualified my post by saying most of the farmers here plant 100's if not 1000's of acres. Have you ever been to Mississippi to see how much land they plant in cotton each year?

That said, in reading the article I noticed a number of things and had questions. Since they spoke of leaves composting while waiting for planting season, how soon is the soil temperature above 60 degrees in Connecticut; the soil temp needed for microbes to start composting? Then there is the matter of matted leaves that are not shredded. I noticed that shredding is not required by the collector; bush-hogging the leaves will compact the soil and the leaves will it not? As well, driving trucks loaded with 20-40 tons of leaves on wet soil will compact said soil, not to mention the added number of times trucks will be in the field dumping leaves. How long does it take snow to melt in Connecticut in spring, what month? How long is the planting season and who is going to pay for all that extra nitrogen if the C:N ratio is too high? How many more extra times will a farmer have to till/plow than he normally would? Will not all this added air destroy any progress by adding too much air to the soil? Who is going to pay for all the inspectors to make sure all the fields and collecting facilities are following the code? These are just a few thoughts that come to mind.

In my neck of the woods, there are not enough big cities to supply all the leaves that would be needed, so this plan would be limited in scope. If trucked in from far away, would not the added cost have to be absorbed by somebody, the taxpayer maybe?

This sounds like a great plan, and with time I am sure they can work out all the bugs if they have not do already. But down here we don't have a lot of people or leaves; we have pine straw.

Good to know there are those who are doing something rather than sitting at home behind a computer asking all kinds of questions, huh...

Blutranes

I'd like to ask a few practical questions at this point. This past summer I returned my vegetable plot to a no-till condition applying the basics of the Ruth Stout method and substituting straw for hay. I assume this will eventually create humus but how long might it take? Would adding some humus from the woods benefit this plot? If so, how little could I use and still see some benefit? I don't want to till it in but would consider applying it as a top dressing before adding another layer of straw.

Bluetranes, I've been trying to become more informed on the things that go on in good garden soil and everything I've read and heard has been helpful, even the sometimes "heated" discussions. I recently enjoyed the book Teaming With Microbes and was amazed at just how much I don't know about the interactions of the microherd and their relationships to plants. Even though I've been gardening for well over 50 years, there's so much still to learn! I've known since knee high to a grasshopper that certain things were done at certain times to produce desired results but often didn't know why these things worked. I know more now but realize the vastness of the knowledge available that wasn't known in my father's and grandfather's day. I hope I never stop learning new things. Yes, it's less and less like "Greek" with every new thing I read!

Sandy

Blutranes

I have no answers to your questions. I would suspect that the farmers involved with this program know much more about this process than you or I. I had not intended to debate anything. I was merely pointing out a program that seems to work in restoring some of that humus to farm soil as opposed to a garden. Will it work everywhere, everytime, I doubt it but it seems to me that it beats hauling it to a landfill.

By the way, I got my 300 metric tonnes (Canada eh?) of yard waste from a town of 4000 people. It's a start!

Gardener sally,

You have just discovered the jewel of gardening; this is an education without a graduation. Are you not so happy to learn that after 50 years of gardening you are still young enough to learn? Makes my day every time I prove those words correct.

Ruth Stroud works! You started at the right time of the year IMO; you have given your bed time to really cook. In your zone it will perk up, compost, slow down as it cools, then recycle. This is good for the microbes, for each time they restart they will have more numbers. By spring, if you have more discipline that I do and not peek under the mulch you can open your spots and plant. Ruth was from up north, so she didnt speak on insects wintering in the bed, but the healthy bed will aid you in that regard. Your rewards await you if you mixed the material correctly. On a few of the warm days sneak out and give the bed a little water if your hoses can remain outside, not needed if you get good rain. You will make more next year once you find out how few weeds there will be, and those that are will come out very easy. The second year you will have a completely finished bed, your layer of humus will be where the soil met your bottom layer. I have never dug into mine, no need to dig. You can add to the top layer the second year, leaves grass, just like you did before, just keep the mulch on top.

Anything from the forest is good in my opinion. You can add them to the planting holes, just watch out for weeds. What I do is once the plants come up and have two leaves I give the top a thin layer of humus then cover with compost to keep it moist. Microbes are everywhere, you will just be adding more. You can add the forest duff now if you like under the mulch, you cant do it wrong, just do it the way you feel (not think) it should be done. Since the bed is made already you cant put the humus on the bottom, do it that way the next time. This time you can have some fun; next time you will have a plan.

This is what I did on mine, did I answer your question

Blutranes

Yes, you answered exactly what I needed to know. I suspected all this but wanted confirmation. Thanks!

I took a tour of Virginia State University's gardens early this year and they had a 2 year old no-till plot done the same way I started mine. The professor pulled back the top layer of hay and even in a very dry period of time the soil was beautiful and black and moist! It was all the proof I needed that the method worked, I just needed to learn more about it. Fascinating stuff, gardening!

Sandy

pt30, I appreciate your addition of something I knew not of. Please understand I did not mean to take the tone of debate, your link generated the questions I would like to know. I agree we all have to start somewhere, and that surely seems just as good as any.

The closest town to myself has 18,000 on a good weekend. They offer to the folks of the county free compost made from any compost able material the city generates. They also take all highway litter, park collections of trash and add to the pile. It is a win win situation for all; too bad most of the town folks never use the compost. However, if I ever ran short I know where to go...

Blutranes

Blu

I'll let you know how it works out next year...

But for now...

1) The truck that brought out the yard material for me is only a small truck. Compaction not a problem. One wouldn't drive a truck over a wet field anyways.
2) Some of the material came out shredded, some didn't. Once it was worked in, it didn't seem to matter. Matting isn't an issue at all.
3) This was a fallow field for this year.
4) The material seems to break down even if temperatures aren't high. Just like the celery in my fridge I guess. :)
5) Air in the soil seems to be a good thing for the most part.
6) A lot of green grass comes out as well so N might not be an issue. As stated in the link, as long as there is not an excess of leaves it is fine.
7) As a fallow field it gets tilled occasionally anyways. There was not a noticeable amount of extra tillage required.
8) Inspection not required for me. I'm not going to damage my soil.

All in all there is no real difference between mulching a garden and what I am doing except for the scale.

Here is a foto group of my experiment...

pt30,

Oh, now that looks sweet to me, congratulations! What did you do with all the bags? I thought they said the leaves had to be un-bagged.

"5) Air in the soil seems to be a good thing for the most part".

Depends on how deep you tilled it in. If the field had laid fallow there had to be some kind of humus on the lower level of the field, air destroys humus. If you could get more leaves to use as a layer of mulch then not mix that in the soil, keep it on top, you have a money maker on your hands. In zone3 you should have a great level of humus, unlike down here with all the heat. Compost lasts about half a year then it is gone for the most part. Instead of hilling up around the base of the plants I use a compost/humus mix to compensate for the loss. I top that off with a side dressing of urine earth about a foot out and shazam.

"no real difference between mulching a garden and what I am doing except for the scale".

I never turn my mulch into the soil, but that is me. I compost all my old mulch with fresh horse/goat manure in the spring. I have found that due to mild winters insects winter in the mulch, on the compost pile they add more protein.

I have to say again your set-up looks really tasty, and on a large scale too. Would it be too much to ask you to let me know how it comes out once you plant in the field? We lease some land to a farmer, I am sure he would love to learn of this...

Blutranes

Blu

The CT sheet leaf program was just a guide and reference for me. I am not under those rules so I get the trash collector to spot the loads on the field and then I de-bag the material. The town provides me with a trash bin (they pay to dump it) and I place all the bags and other trash into the bin.

This is the first year we did this so we will have to wait to see the results. It is intended to take a crop off in 2007 and be fallow in 2008 so we can do it all again. I alternate fallow/crop so every 2nd year the field was fallow to allow weeds and whatever to grow and then be worked back into the soil. An every second year application of the yard waste (I hate calling it waste) should slowly build the OM/Humus backup to a healthier level. I do not fertilize and have noticed over the years that the yields have been decreasing and I suspect that I have been killing my soil gradually. After much reading/investigation on the internet it seems clear to me now that I have not been restoring the OM in my soil.

When we plant the spring wheat, we actually want the sun to heat up the soil to get a quick, even germination. I would think mulch would hinder this.

Soil has to have some porosity/air or it won't grow anything. Tilling works all the material into a depth of about 6 inches pretty evenly. It only takes 1 decent rain to settle it back down.

And by the way, the town pays me to take the "yard waste"! :)

pt,

All I have read says tilling adds too much air to the soil. I have seen as much in my own plots. You may want to take another look at the effects of tilling on organic matter. I would hate for you to have such a great set-up then find out you have not had all the facts you may want to have. There are some who say different, but I stopped tilling. You may want to do a Google search and see what you can find out about tilling and organic matter loss.

Sounds like you have a great business going. Let me see if I can point you in the right direction about organic matter loss...

Blutranes

Tilling also releases CO2, there are test in Ca measuring the CO2 loss. Early indications that tilled fields actually add substantially to CO2 buildup.

Tilling does great harm to the soil organisms and the top 6" is probably the most important part of the soil, it is the most biologically part for sure.

pt,

"Soil has to have some porosity/air or it won't grow anything. Tilling works all the material into a depth of about 6 inches pretty evenly. It only takes 1 decent rain to settle it back down".

It is not quite as simple as you state pt, and air in the context of your message is not a good thing. Your insight as to what was happening to your soil before adding the leaves is correct, you were headed in the wrong direction. However, with the right knowledge you are well on you way to your goal. Take a slow long look at the page below; if you have not been to this site you may end up calling it home...

Blutranes

Okay I read it. Good article, hell it's a great article and yes you have to read the whole thing very carefully. Not only do you have to read it slow and long, you must also understand what they are talking about.
Les
It seems to me that some people here aren't able to differentiate between the different types of tillage and tend to lump them all under "plowing". This is not the case as there are many different types of soil tillage not to mention various depths of tillage. The link supplied by Blue clearly states this and compares a few different types of tillage. "In cold climates with a long dormant season, light tillage of a heavy residue may be beneficial". What do you have in mind when you say "tilling"?

Soil IS disturbed in a "no-tillage" system of annual grain production. The seeds have to be placed in the ground, on top doesn't work. Placing fertilizer in the fall also disturbs the soil. No-tillage is a misnomer in my mind. Minimal tillage might be a better discriptor. If anyone here thinks that the soil is never disturbed on a "no-till" grain farm they had better do a bit of research. No-till doesn't necessarily mean zero! When you turn your compost pile you harm the organisms, guess what, they recover very quickly!

In order to plant and grow an annual grain, one does not want that seed to compete with a "cover crop" for nutrients and moisture. Some crop "trash" i.e. stubble and straw bits is okay, but you do not want a thick mulch. The soil will not warm up evenly and it may lead to poor or uneven germination as stated in link.

The article also stresses the fact that no till requires more chemicals for weed control. "On the down side, no-till can foster a reliance on herbicides to control weeds and can lead to soil compaction from the traffic of heavy equipment."

In my situation, some tillage to control weeds by incorporating them back into the soil while mixing in the leaves and grass beats utilizing hundreds of gallons of herbicides to control those weeds. Also, if I didn't till, the friggin leaves would blow away, I have to mix them into the soil or a vast amount will be lost. We're talking acres here, not square feet in a sheltered garden.

I do believe that some (and I stress SOME) air is required for the microorganisms in the soil to do their stuff (decompose the yard waste). If it is necessary in my compost pile, how can you say it isn't in the soil? Even the ATTRA link says that air is necessary! "Shallow tillage incorporates residue and speeds the decomposition of organic matter by adding oxygen that microbes need to become more active."

Breathing releases CO2, composting releases CO2! Sure some is released when we till. Once again I have to till or increase the amount of chemicals (which the production of also creates CO2). I prefer not to use chemicals. I would argue (although I can't prove it), that by accepting this yard waste and incorporating it into my fields I am also reducing CO2 emissions because of the closeness of my farm to the town versus the landfill. After all, the trucks used to haul this material burn fossil fuels.

Come on folks, not every field is the same, not all soils are the same, not every seed is the same, not every climate is the same and not every situation is the same. Given that there are so many variables (many we don't even know yet), why are some here so absolute in their condemnation of what someone else is doing? It seems to me that some people find a link on the net, highlight the points that they agree with and disregard the ones they either don't understand or don't agree with.

I won't claim that what I am doing is perfect. But I think it will slowly and gradually improve my soil and it beats doing nothing. I may be wrong but only time will tell.

Pt30,

You have made my day. Yes, clicking on a link someone felt would serve a good to another has a great many benefits. A new idea cannot be grafted onto a closed mind. An opening of some nature has to be realized in order for progress to be made. Be ye not fooled; an open mind is your friend, without it one can never learn from another. Then too, learning is a two way street; the more I allow someone to teach/show/share with me, the more refreshed the teacher/demonstrator/giver mind remains. Now, lets look at some of what you said and see if we may find another point of view for the both of us.

"The article also stresses the fact that no till requires more chemicals for weed control. "On the down side, no-till can foster a reliance on herbicides to control weeds and can lead to soil compaction from the traffic of heavy equipment"."

This is true to a certain extent; it can be overcome with humus. Weeds and grass dont grow in humus very well, if at all. I know this from looking out the window at two of my plots; there are no weeds in them. When I first read this information I found it hard to believe, until I went outside and looked closely at the plots. Thus, with a good supply of humus in the soil your weed concern will diminish over time.

And too, who said weeds are not good for a garden/farm? Was it the same people who said tilling is not good? Come to think of it, who said if you do this right you will have to till at all? I recall on the page these words:

"When earthworms are present in high numbers, the tillage provided by their burrows can replace some expensive tillage work done by machinery".

It doesnt say minimize or limit, it says replace.

Anyway, back to weeds. I never weed on purpose. Weeds prove your soil will grow plants. Try growing a plant in soil that even weeds wont grow. Now, if I create an environment where weeds wont grow there will be no weeds. How do I create this? By making sure my plants get all the sunlight. May some weeds grow? Yes, but they wont hurt or cause my plants to suffer. If my plants are doing great why bother that little weed? Could I not be doing more important things with my time than wasting it dealing with that little weed? But wait a minute Blutranes, them weeds is taking food my plants could be eating. This is true, and it can be a major concern if your food supply is low. So what can you do about it, using your brain to come up with a solution? Hey! I can make sure there is so much food in the soil there is no way any plant can eat it all. If I am abundant in creating a food supply of unlimited bounty that weed can eat its fill.

I went to my county extension agent to ask him how to get rid of nut grass. The first thing he told me to do is move to another home. Or, he told me, about this series of poisons to use and in a few years I could plant on the spot. I said I want to grow organic food on that plot, is there any other way other than poison? He said yes, MOVE. pt30, imagine what I think when I read people tell those who know not better to go to their county extension agency?

What I did was make eight lasagna beds on that plot. Planted ten different kinds of watermelons in the beds. To make long story short, people are still calling me in November asking if I have any watermelons left. Did the nut grass grow through the lasagna beds? It sure did, and very large I might add. But so did the watermelons, larger than the seed pack said they would, and I mean a lot larger. I lost not one plant, spent no time weeding, and grew some of the sweetest, great looking melons they have ever see around here. County Extension Agent my a$$. I am saying all agents are bad? No, but I dont care about all agents, me thinks I will be my own agent. Yes, I think it best I handle my own case.

pt30, around this web site are some good folk, they come to learn from someone who knows more than they do and is willing to share that information. The people with the knowledge have great power, but they also have great responsibility. When I portray myself as qualified to answer the question of an innocent gardener, who came with a trusting heart and a desire to do better for themselves, it is of the utmost importance that I (the answer of questions) have a deep desire to help my fellow man with no strings attached. The one who gives the answer has been given a tremendous honor. They have been given the gift of "the ability to make life better" for someone who knows not what to do. If I am lost and ask you to help me to not be lost I have given you the honor of saving me to a certain extent. Without your help I may never find my way. When you help me to find my way we both know something. Regardless to if I never see your face again, I know there is someone out there in the world that helped me when I needed it the most. And you know that you gave direction to a lost soul, who through your actions has found his/her way. This knowledge builds character in both people. One has gained the ability to ask for help, the other has gained the honor of helping another. Honor, confidence, concern, trust, fearlessness, humility, selflessness, strength, and the ability to give and follow direction; its just what you get for doing the right thing for the right reason.

Sorry, I go places like that sometimes. Anyway, I am so pleased you have found something that you can now use. It can never be taken from either of us, and we both can give it to anyone who has the courage to ask.

I could add may more things to what you have stated, but if I take more time to talk it would appear rude. There may be others who have just come up with a thought we both need to read about. Long is the road of learning, few are the number of people on it

Blutranes

Hey Blue..I'm sure you and a lot of folks here are very good gardeners and what you do works very well for you...I just don't have the time, perhaps when I retire. But "weeds don't grow in humus very well"? Then you go on to say "weeds prove your soil will grow plants". Me thinks is a tad bit contradictory. I have seen some pretty awesome weeds growing through and around compost piles! And by the way, just so no one is confused, my definition of a weed is any plant growing where I do not want it to. Wheat can be a weed if it's growing in a canola field.

In any event, weeds are bad in a cereal crop. They reduce yields, they compete for limited moisture, they make it more difficult for harvest and their seeds increase the dockage at the elevator. I have seen these problems with mine very own eyes. Just to name a few problems with weeds. If they are not controlled, some of the seeds can be released into the wind (especially thistle or dandelion) to spread over many miles and also back into your field. In some places there is a law called the Noxious Weed Act (or something similar) that gives the local government the right to come onto your property to control said weeds and add the costs to your taxes. I can remember my Father walking through his wheat fields pulling some weeds (wild oats and thistles). Very effective method of weed control but not so practical on a larger scale.

As for "The people with the knowledge have great power, but they also have great responsibility". One has to be cognizant that there is no way to determine if there is in fact knowledge here. I have read a few items posted that I suspect is pure bunk, read and regurgitated without any knowledge or practical experience in the subject. As an example, let's use your quote...

"When earthworms are present in high numbers, the tillage provided by their burrows can replace some expensive tillage work done by machinery".

You then state...

"It doesnt say minimize or limit, it says replace."

The qualifiers here seem to be "when", "can" and "some". Yet you focus on the single word replace and change the meaning.

I know little of gardening and admit that freely. I will not give out advice to that end. I know a bit more about some types of farming and might tell folks what works/worked for me. I won't read an article on the net, cherry pick a few thoughts and then pretend I am the all knowing in the subject. I see that all too often on many forums. On the other hand I might see an interesting article on the net and think that with a bit of adaptation that might work for me and thus try an experiment. I have borrowed and adapted many a good idea from stuff I've seen on the net.

You know Blue, if a lost person asks for me help and I don't know the correct answer, it would be better to just say "I don't know" rather than give them incorrect directions!

If I remember next year I'll let ya know how my wheat makes out in the cultivated field of leaves and grass clippings. Not that this will mean much as there are many more other variables that can influence the yield year to year. I strongly suspect that this experiment will be ongoing and need more than one year to determine anything of great value.

Blue, good luck with your gardens. Sorry to all for hijacking the thread, I'm going to go work on my compost tumblers.

When I first read about humus and weeds I said, HUH? And you didn't even mention that what you grow can be a grass if I am not mistaken, and grass we included with weeds. Please do not think for a moment I feel I have all the answers, for I know for a fact that I do not. However, I have planted what was considered a grass in a plot with humus and it grew extremely well. I have no idea why this happened, yet, as I said before, those two plots outside have no weeds and no grass growing in them. Might I add that one is not even mulched.

I did pick one word and it may have been a mistake on my part. I did not and do not claim to be a farmer, I garden the best I can. I search for ways to garden better, and share what I learn to anyone that asks. I can offer no more, for that is all I have to give.

Your knowledge of weeds and cereal crops appear to have a long history. I am not qualified to give directions of any manner on how to do what you do better. As you said in the "lost" sentence, I have no problem saying I don't know. However, at no time would I try to manipulate your opinion of what has been said, I respect your right to come to a conclusion of your own. I only speak of what has caught my eye at that moment, or speak a thought based on what I have read. Saying that I trust you understand my focus as I trust you will.

Good luck in your new adventure, I am sure you will find success based on the limited knowledge of what I know about what you are doing. And do have a Happy Thanksgiving...

Blutranes