Pruning off the side branches on the lower 1/2-1/3 of the tree will make the trunk visible and look more proper and tree like which is the look I think you want. Don't mess with the top growth. That is what makes it look like a tree.

bboy is right about the bark. If the tree is south or west facing, you might get some scald damage. You could wrap the trunk in a single layer of burlap for a while while the trunk adapts to the new amount of direct sun I suppose.

As for ultimate size of the tree, it is a dogwood and should be fine where you have it size wise for a very long time. Maybe in 30-50 years it will be an issue if it is still alive at that time. You are zone 5 after all. Ideally, it should have been planted further from the house but too late to worry about it now. Just enjoy it for the next couple decades.

Although he has a near limitless knowledge of botany, bboy commonly dismisses such plantings where trees might touch one another or a structure. He tends to recommend idealized open grown plantings for nearly everything which is not possible in most urban environments.

Thanks for the input. Can you guys better describe for me what you mean by "broad vase" shape?

>Although he has a near limitless knowledge of botany, bboy commonly dismisses such plantings where trees might touch one another or a structure. He tends to recommend idealized open grown plantings for nearly everything which is not possible in most urban environmentsPoster said they wanted something more tidy, implying specimen is already more big and wild than they want. My decades of experience in ornamental horticulture makes me think that kind of thing when people make such comments.

If you were familiar with gardens and plantings I have designed and installed you would know your mis-characterization was additionally inapt.

You must not practice what you preach then. I have no doubt your gardens are well designed and quite remarkable in their own right. However, you present the same arguments about tree size and location constantly and give me the impression you don't like things with large potential (no matter how long it takes to actually get there) to be anywhere near another tree or structure. That is how you come off to me.

If it weren't for squeezing in some things that may one day outgrow the spot, gardening and planting rare species would be quite dull and the choices much more limited. Nothing wrong with enjoying something for a couple decades then removing it. Your constant advice about size usually does not take this into account.

For example, you list sizes of champion trees or exceptionally large trees in a private garden for reference to size expectancy when someone talks about a specific species. Not all red maples will get to 100' tall even though a few might have been documented. IMO, respectfully, I think your size statement about what to expect can be misleading both from an expected size in the planters lifetime and the lifetime of the tree.

OP, here is a google image search image of the vase shape I think bboy is talking about. There are pics of much larger trees than this, but the ones I have found are all of much more rounded shaped specimens.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:414812}}

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Thu, Aug 22, 13 at 17:27

Good garden design does not require either the planting of future nuisance trees or the planting of no trees at all. Except where there really is no place for any in a particular location. As can be seen just from comments on this web site there are a lot of people that do not like trees near buildings, in views and so on.

My Cornus kousa is abut 10 years old, and would be touching the house in the picture. It won't take 30 years.

I do think that it's too close to the house. You cant see in the picture, but there's a hydrangea between the house and the dogwood. The company that did our landscaping packed too much into this space. One of my goals for the spring and fall is to transplant some of the smaller plants.

LV, I wasn't referring when the tree would touch the house. I was referring to when it might become a problem/hazard. I have to admit I have never seen a single c. kousa or florida in cultivation in the US that is large enough to be considered a hazard next to a structure...

I do think that it's too close to the house. You cant see in the picture, but there's a hydrangea between the house and the dogwood. The company that did our landscaping packed too much into this space. One of my goals for the spring and fall is to transplant some of the smaller plants.

Hey, you are the master! If you don't like it there, moving when it goes dormant is a great option =) Since it has been there 3 years, it most likely is fully established or very near it but in my experience, dogwoods don't put out spreading roots very fast. You may be able to get most of the new feeder roots if you dig a modest amount around the tree when you dig it up and ease the transplant shock for the tree. When digging remember, width is more important than depth since the majority of the roots are near the surface of the soil. A foot or so down and three feet or so across should do it if you can manage that size of rootball along with the tree. A smaller rootball will probably work, too but the more roots you can capture the better off your tree will be for it. If you can locate the original soil ball the plant came in, go a few inches beyond that when digging.

John

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Fri, Aug 23, 13 at 9:28

schreibdave,
Understand that typically "landscapers" and "landscape Architects" make choices for now, and not in five years. There are of course exceptions, but they seem to rather rare.

As for your particular tree would suggest you go slow. Your tree is doing well, and that can be surprisingly hard to achieve with dogwoods. Also make sure to maintain proper mulching under the tree to help protect the roots and trunk..One thing to consider though, is to search the web for pictures of kousa dogwoods. You will find that the nicest most showy specimens are frequently unpruned.

FWIW, people get far to stuck on potential maximum sizes of trees and planting distance. But even at max sizes, natural environments are CROWDED. Most trees we plant are forest species, and as such evolved to live in a crowded environment, with support and protection from adjacent trees. So while some ideal of perfection is for them to never touch, or touch anything but the roots in the ground, that is not the "norm" for most species.

Arktrees

I wont be moving the dogwood, I'll try to manage it in that space. I do plan to try to move some of the smaller plants - hydrangea, black eyed susans, ornamental grasses, etc. Is dormancy the best time to do that?

How far is the plant from the house?

As someone mentioned Cornus kousa has been one of the most difficult plants for me to establish. Even more so when you're working with ph of 7.3. Mine seriously grew a few inches each of the last three years.

The largest one I've seen in this area was a 30+ year old specimen tucked between two houses that was roughly 15' wide. The soil there is a bit more on the clay side, ph likely around 7. Owner said he thought he lost it twice due to harsh winters.

Some of you would be shaming me with the number of plants I have tucked into my lot. Mine are all on a 15-30 year plan. If they make it, great. I could always thin or remove. I'd rather spend 20 years enjoying a tree than staring at empty space waiting for the plants to fill in when I'm finally ready to kick the bucket.

I'm with you whaas. Are you still wanting Cotinus obovatus 'Tulsa Lady"? Looks like that nursery where I got mind in Connecticut will have it again when they start shipping. At least it is listed again, though until they start shipping, it say "out of Stock" on everything.

Dave,
Sorry I didn't make it clear. But I was talking about going slow on the pruning. If it is happy, don't rock the boat too hard.

Arktrees

"How far is the plant from the house?"

The hydrangea was planted ... I dont know maybe 18" from the foundation. The branches are right up against teh house. It's doing fine but looks ridiculuous.

Is the fall the best time to move plants like that?

Yes, once their leaves turn colors, dig them up and move them (all plants including trees, shrubs, and perennials). Does your soil freeze in winter? If so, really even if not, make sure and mulch it well to help moderate soil temperature and make sure it still continues to get some water so the soil stays lightly moist before it freezes.

If someone from the north/midwest recommends spring because of the frozen soil issue, listen to them as I have no experience gardening up there.

1.5' from the house is ridiculous, I agree

At some point in time, perhaps sooner than you imagine, there will be a conflict between the dogwood and the structure. As noted previously, kousa dogwoods develop a wide, spreading canopy - they are much broader than tall, unlike the growth habit of most other dogwood trees. They are typically described as "broadly horizontal" in habit if that helps the visual image. And as also noted previously, pruning dogwoods is usually not highly recommended, especially to control width, because of the way they respond to pruning with multiple growth points emerging from the cut (the hydra effect). Really the only 'safe' method of pruning for size is the removal of entire branches, which cannot possibly result in an acceptable look.

I'd really consider having that tree moved while it is still a manageable size.

I'm in Syracuse, NY. When would you all say is the ideal time to move trees, shrubs and perennials? J0ND03 advises that when the leaves start to change, that's the ideal time. Do others agree?

In USDA 5 you might want to do a lot of it at end of winter instead. It depends partly on how hardy a particular plant being dug up is, how well it would do if a cold front came soon after.

Yes, it depends on species. Dogwood is one you should move in late winter in zone 5.

Ark, still without a species plant. I'll have to check out their listing. Have gotten an email yet about everything opening up.

How is yours doing? Lanky or branching out nicely?

Sorry for the slight thread bomb!

Off topic but ... how about hydrangea and black eyed susans? When would be the best time to move them?

whaas,
Honestly it's too early to tell as this is the first growing season. What I can tell you is that it started to bud out and grow, got frozen, but came right back. So it seems to be fairly resistant to late freezes. It did generate growth over the entire plant which would seem to indicate branching, BUT the late freeze could have something to do with that. The leaves to date are smaller than our other Cotinus obovatus, and others I have seen locally. But they are also bluer. Don't know if this will continue, but it is the present state. Growth this year has come in two flushes. The initial flush, and then once the weather turned wetter in late July first half of August, a second flush. It appears to me that growth is very tied to rainfall. More rain equals more growth for American Smoketree from what I have seen. Whats more, then second flush is also the second time the Tulsa Lady flowered. Don't know if this is the norm or a fluke. Also of note, both Smoketrees are planted in a highly competitive weedy environment (I want the competition to keep soil moisture on the low side to promote long term survival), so this will tend to slow growth overall.

General observations from local trees, are that American Smoke trees can grow EXCEPTIONALLY FAST. The local Botanical Garden planted one about 2008-9 at about 4' tall in a high draining high organic matter, irrigated location. As of a week ago, that same tree was about 20' tall and 15' wide. It literally had 8'-10' leaders one year, which they then cut back by about half to induce wider sturdier growth. Have seen something similar in another local park, though those trees have not been there as long. IMHO, this species will grow fast and lanky if the growing condition are especially good. Probable an adaptation to this native environment where they are usually located in thin dry soil above bluffs. And since these locations have poor very dry soil, these trees have to grow the maximum amount possible while conditions permit. Therefore I would expect any reasonable gardening environment will induce fast growth. Drainage is key. Without good drainage, they will succumb to root disease.

Dave, sorry for the derail. I can't speak for you location, but fall is the best time here. BUT, since others have chimed in that spring is better in the north, I would expect that would be the time for those as well. Another thing to consider, is time vs expense. Black-Eyed Susan's aren't expensive. What's more many times they do not overwinter. Instead coming back from seed the following year.

Arktrees

I have the opposite problem of the original posted message. I have (had) a beautiful kousa dogwood in the front yard, with that full, graceful shape. Our tree pruner came today when we weren't home and, along with pruning we actually wanted done, lopped off all the lower branches of this tree. I assume it will fill out again(?) Does anyone know how many years that might take?

dchavez,
Start a new thread with a picture in it. There isn't enough info in your post to truely understand the extent of damage, nor the conditions. Though I will say this. My first reaction is that your tree will not look like it did again, and I would be making a serious reduction in payment to the people you hired, taking the retained $$$ to plant a replacement.

JMHO,
Arktrees

Thank you, Arktrees. I just talked with a local nursery and they concur with your opinion. They said since it is an older, larger tree, the bottom will not produce any new branches and that I will need to replace it if I want a tree that has the beautiful shape. So, that's what I'll do. Maybe I can move the pruned one to another spot that needs a higher canopy. Thanks again -- you definitely put me on the right track.

Bumping this. Im sure some of the pros will rail on me for the following, but what I cant seem to find is the “why”? If any of you can help with that it would be greatly appreciate. I just picked up a kousa dogwood likely about 3-5 yrs old, around the trunk has been approiately trimmed through its developmen, to make it lolipop like. The tree including rootball is about 8’ tall. She is going in a 3.5x3.5 concrete cut out of the sidewalk of my Urban Philadelphia (zone 7B) rowhouse, under powerlines at about 20-25’. I currently have. 2 very small Hydrangeas in each corner, of the cut out, as well as a small azalea on the street face, all three are about a year old, not more than 2. The street itself doesn’t get city plowing/ salting, and when private individuals do salt it, the cut out is protected by parked cars. The goal is going to be to train the branches over the side walk at about 7’ and over the street at about 8’. I will start training for a ”v” notch up top as she approaches the power/ cable lines. She will be centered about 10’ from the front wall of the rowhouse, and 10’ from my neighbors property lines on either side, though realisticall, with limited permeability for large root flair, Im not aure how far she will widen.

the question: In my perfect world, I will own a nice house in the suburbs, with ample space to garden. In the world I live in, I hope to be able to fit her in, and then replace the azale and hydrangeas next to her, on the street side and curb corners respectively, then train them so the form a ring around her, without touching the trunk, but understanding the roots will intermingle/ fight for resources in a very small space. I plan to put all back in the garbage city earth(possibly on a bed of sand), but otherwise not amend the soil, and then “mulch” the top with pure compost, again taking note of root flair and the trunk itself. What potential problems am I looking at from this strategy? I know enough to know that this is far from an ideal hand to serve any of the plants, but it’s the best I have on the menu, and despite the less than desirable circumstances, I do want to give them their best shot, rooting (no pun intended) for the Kousa to finish first, hydrangeas second, and azalea third place in this tiny south facing plot. I don’t wnat kid glove criticism, just useful criticism/ ideas/ cautionary knowledge.

Thank you!