Actually, I find the kinds of comments you denigrate interesting, entertaining, and useful. I don't recall any kind of bullying in the comments I've read about scent.

Did you all know that asparagus makes a person's urine smell very disagreeable?

It used to be thought that only some people were affected this way. Turns out that only some people have the genes that allow them to detect the 'obnoxious odor'.

I think it's all interesting.

Here is a link that might be useful: Asparagus and urine

Sandandsun,

I have even purchased two books devoted entirely to scented plants. These are not only good reads but are also useful. Gardening is, I think, the only art that is capable of engaging all five of our senses each of which is as important as the other, in their own way, to our well being. The sense of smell is the most directly connected to the brain of all the senses and that produces some interesting results. But I do not wish to annoy you, only intrigue you, and so will leave it at that.

Cath

I have to say: this is a most unusual rant.

AND I will continue to point out to those who complain that they can't smell a rose regarded as "very fragrant" that each of us has a different sense of smell and as Jeri has so succinctly observed:

Roses I can barely smell are quite fragrant to some others.
Roses I can smell, are insignificantly fragrant to some folks.

That's just the way it is and yet it remains a mystery to many.

A more compelling mystery is: why would it be obnoxious to educate others on a public forum that is supposed to be about helping others to understand roses?

My goodness! To describe others' comments (not even a specific post - just comments on fragrance!) as "obnoxious" and "idiotic" seems, well, that.

I don't think trying to tell folks what to say, & what to not say, regarding just their opinions about a real rose topic, is not helpful. I think all reasonable discourse regarding roses should be encouraged on this forum.

Jackie

"Sadly this needs to be said."- Nope it really doesn't. If you disagree with comments in a post just respectfully state the factual basis of your dissenting view or don't respond at all. Simple.

If I come across something in a thread that I don't like I just skip the rest of the post and move on to the next one. Feel free to do the same!

Amberroses,
In terms of facts, I have a friend who retired from the perfume industry. She was hired and paid for her nose. They selected her for the job after screening out thousands of applicants who could not detect and identify individual fragrant notes as she could. Finding her replacement required even more applicants.
What I conclude from it is that most of the population is olfactorily challenged to some degree.
In a recent post(link below)Luxrosa describes a situation in which there was a concensus on fragrance and also the lack thereof.
Hmm, how could that happen? I mean so many here post that there are so many ifs, ands, and buts about fragrance. How COULD that happen? Luxrosa in reference to Harkness introduces a fascinating topic about a plant's fragrant profile by the way.
I believe that if 7 honest people say something is nicely fragrant even if they cannot describe the notes and 3 people say they can't smell it, then the fact that the minority cannot smell it doesn't mean it isn't fragrant.
I personally would refrain from commenting at all about fragrance if I had any experience revealing that I couldn't smell what everyone else was smelling.

Here is a link that might be useful: Variable Fragrance on a single specimen

Sunandsand,
Fragrance has a chemical and physiological basis; nevertheless it's an art, not mathematics. Just because you can't resolve it into a theorem doesn't mean there's nothing worth saying about it. People don't agree about Milton, the Pre-Raphaelites, or bebop either, and never will. That doesn't mean they're not legitimate topics of discussion.
Melissa

Shared observations and experiences do require qualification. I could state Malmaison is the most terrible rose plant in existence, yet Sammy seems to grow it as easily as a Knock Out is grown in many locations. Without the qualification, my statement is in error. The same is true with most others most of us can make.

The ability to distinguish fragrances, tastes, colors, impressions and feelings, "tones", etc. varies greatly from one of us to the next. They don't make one better, or worse, than the next, just different and all within the normal range of human abilities. I consider them all parts of the genetic diversity which probably allows our Race to adapt to changing conditions, much like those expressed by species which permit them to adapt as conditions change.

I can't perceive many of the fragrances and scents many here wax poetically about. "Tea scent" in roses I perceive as Orthene and clean Tupperware. I have yet to detect the "rich raspberry scent" so often written about in Tropicana, but then, natural raspberry taste to me was "green and wet", like grass clippings, until a few years ago. I still can't detect the fragrance of anything naturally raspberry scented, other than a handful of overly ripe berries, and I can finally detect they have more of a taste than wet grass. Give me blackberries or blueberries any day! Those, I can taste.

If I am off base here, I sincerely apologize, but I get an impression from your initial post which greatly reminds me of feelings I had when well meaning friends would offer me their suggestions to try hypnosis in my futile attempts to quit smoking. I did. I don't go "under". I'm told I can't go under. I wasted a lot of money and time in my efforts to utilize those tools. My mind doesn't let go, I am conscious of everything that is said and done, and am able to recite it verbatim afterward. Eidetic memories are more of a curse than blessing in many ways.

I felt incompetent, a failure, literally inferior when told how easily and immediately hypnosis "cured" their habits and addictions, and it only made matters worse. Until I decided my inability to do something they seemed so perfectly, easily able to do meant no more ABOUT me than my ability to recall things with such vivid precision and their inabilities to. One isn't superior to the other, just as my inability didn't make me inferior, just different and well within the parameters of Human Expression. Only I wield the power to make myself feel inferior, less than someone else, for any reason. And, I chose not to feel that way. Yes, I still wish their salvation was possible for me, but it ain't gonna happen that way, just as I'm not going to be able to glory in the richness of a Tea Rose's scent.

It doesn't mean I don't intellectually understand and share your enjoyment of them, I just don't perceive them that way. I do appreciate others' qualifications of where they are, special considerations of culture, environment, micro climate because they help me understand how and why the rose performs as they observe; the characteristics are expressed and how they are able to perceive them. It teaches me things I wouldn't necessarily have been able to experience and observe personally. Kim

"Similarly, why must the olfactorily challenged comment? If one cannot add value, then refrain."

I don't think a person saying that they can't smell something is value-less.

if the majority of people say that they think a rose smells nice, but then no one is allowed to say that they disagree or that they can't smell it,... then all those people at home who can't smell it (even if they are olfactorily challenged or a minority...) they're going to feel like they must be going crazy.

honestly, I don't understand this thread. As long as people keep their opinions about how something smells (or opinions about anything, really) civil and considerate, then what's the big deal.

if you don't want to hear someone droning on and on about XYZ, simply go to another thread or go do something else...

Sadly this needs to be said.
In responses to posts about fragrant roses, why is it not obvious that going on and on about fragrance being variable, subjective, etc. is obnoxious?

No offense intended, but this is a public forum, not a private club. A comment may be "obnoxious" to you, but others may find it interesting or educational. If something doesn't interest you, why not just skip to the next post or thread?

I think the OP has taken enough of a beating for now....Dontcha think you might all want to lay off????

Whereas there is no doubt about whether any particular fragrance is pleasing to any particular individual, the existence of fragrance or lack thereof is not subjective. It is as agreed earlier dependent upon all those iterated conditions to allow it to be expressed and upon the individual's ability to perceive it. Further one point of sharing my friend's story is that the perfume industry demonstrates that many fragrances have long since been defined.
Although not "quoted" my use of "idiotic" was borrowed from a recent post to allude to an example of my point; it was not a personal expression by me. I understand that subtleties can be lost so I am explaining it.
At least for a time aspiring writers were taught that one of their initials objectives included defining their audience. I have not written about this bad behavior for those that perpetrate it, but instead for those whose experience and knowledge here wield influence. Just as good plants are bred, so too bad behavior can be bred. It can also be corrected by example.

I'm still not entirely sure what is meant by all this. The nearest I can make out is that what you're saying is similar to the old "if a tree falls in a forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it still make a sound?"

If a flower is making and pouring out fragrance, but there is no nose that can smell it, is it still fragrant? I guess it is, but if only 5 people in the world can smell it, and I'm not one of them, does it really matter to me? Probably not. I'll find something that I CAN smell.

It's true that the perfume industry has defined all or most scents and categorized them in a way that makes sense to the people who work in that industry. But it wouldn't make any sense to me or the many other people who participate in this forum and comment on the types of scents their roses have. I think it's just fine to use the plain old general use vocabulary we all have to describe things. It doesn't have to be the highly specialized jargon any particular industry uses.

Even if I learned the vocabulary, it still wouldn't work for me, because as you pointed out, there are very few noses that can distinguish all those individual notes. It's more useful for me to find out how another average nose like mine experiences and describes a particular scent.

I retract my most recent statement.
Bring it on.
LOL

Sandandsun, I still don't get the point of this post and it sounds like I'm not alone. What are you really trying to say?

I can't figure out who has the most obnoxious bad behavior of them all. Is it the unrestrainable olfactorily challenged? Or the droning idiots who can't shut up about variables and conditions? Maybe it's those bullies. Or maybe somebody else?

Interesting...I want to hear more about "bred bad behavior"? Is that like the movie "The Bad Seed"?

It's called netiquette. You can Google that in case you are missing the 'correcting by example' part yourself ;)

It's bad form to complain about posts that bore you when on a public forum. What if everyone started posts about their own pet peeves with other posters?

Sandandsun, have you been over to the Landscaping Forum? I think you would really enjoy it.
Renee

Renee, you're too funny!

Ingrid

Cath,
Thank you for your comments. I've been gardening for 30 years. I haven't keep count of the gardening tomes I've read, but certainly besides the classics (which usually included fragrance)I've also read fragrance specific ones. Fragrance is one of the true joys of gardening for me and one of my favorite senses.

Kim,
I've never understood the fragrance descriptor "tea." The only tea rose I grow is controversially Barcelona and not a tea at all. So how would I begin to guess? But I grow him for his fragrance which merits its accolades.
I fortunately can distinguish personal attacks from on topic discussion and am not demeaned by them. Neither have I intended to demean anyone else. My point has been about behaviors not about individuals.
I also understand your point and others that the conditions are valuable, and I've agreed that they are. I never said they weren't. I suppose in a way I might be advocating that the conditions be in FAQs. Because reading them as 'but,but,but' in every discussion of fragrance detracts from the question of whether the rose in question is capable of producing a really nice fragrance or not.

Well, I think I finally figured out from your most recent post what you were trying to say. Correct me if I still don't get it, but I think your point is that the rose's fragrance or lack thereof should be treated wholly separate from the subjectivity of people's ability to perceive it. Did I get it right?

If that is what this has all been about, then I think your point is well taken.

I don't think it is or was appropriate for you to berate us however for "bad behavior". Sharing personal experience really doesn't fall into that category.

Thanks Sandandsun, I agree with you about Barcelona's fragrance. Delicious! He's always been a Hybrid Tea to me, whether identified as the HT Barcelona or the "Tea" Francis Dubreuil. The Damask fragrance came from the European OGRs through the HPs, which by virtue of breeding, not to mention color and fragrance, would make him a HT.

I don't get the "tea" fragrance description either. I can smell tea leaves and the containers they are sold and kept in. I can smell brewed tea and I can taste differences between the types I've tasted. Nothing I've ever encountered in the flower of a "Tea Rose" has ever impressed me as having anything in common with any of the above.

Do I EVER agree with you about such things needing to be explained in the FAQS section. But, as we've all seen and experienced, most people don't read. Even fewer follow instructions. Follow any of the forums here and you'll notice the same questions repeated every few days to weeks. Had any search function been done as the instructions request, or even any browsing of the threads been made, the answers would have been found and the questions never posted. I don't open many threads simply for this reason. I know I'll eventually miss something juicy later down the thread, but realistically, how many times should anyone be expected to read the same question? Kim

Maybe a new forum should be started. This forum would be highly regulated. Only "worthy" posts would be permitted. It would be like submitting a research paper to an academic journal. Only novel well-researched question/answers would be asked/answered. Posters would never be allowed to express personal opinions on the topic of roses without empirical evidence and double blind studies. They will be free to express any unpleasant personal opinions they may feel about the actual poster, the poster's grammar, and the worthiness of the post in general. No one will be allowed to take any of this personally or get mad.

A list of acceptable topics of discourse would be posted and no additional questions may be asked without prior approval by 3/4 of the currently active posters. Photo size limitations would be strictly enforced.

General questions by first time posters about rose care would not be allowed. They would be asked to search for the forum's page called, "Standardized rose care instructions, no matter what region of the country you come from, what season of the year it is, what kind of soil you have, and whether there is currently a swarm of locusts on your property." No further posts would be allowed by new rose growers until they could demonstrate at least a bachelor's degree level education in rose horticulture. This is to insure that worthy posters are not inconvenienced by having to click on the link to their posts and reading the first sentence.

The new forum will be called- "Growing Roses for the Enlightened Stickler" I wonder how many posts it will have?

None, of course. My point is, all of us have our "hot buttons", things which irritate the heck out of us. It's how we deal with them that matters. Kim

Amberroses, you go, girl. It never ceases to amaze me what people will get their knickers in a twist about.

Has anyone actually looked at the FAQ section for this forum? Don't bother. It's worthless....well, unless you want to giggle and grin and poke fun....

I understood that the FAQ was/is a volunteer effort. Anyone wanting to put in the time and effort to add to it, could probably do so.

I think the definitions could be expanded on, along with adding the names of famous roses that represent the classes. And it might be helpful to add answers to questions like:

What antique roses perform best in warm climates?

What antique roses perform best in cool/cold climates?

Amberroses - very well put! This forum should be open and welcoming to everyone (which I think it mostly has been and is). Comments and questions and personal opinions that are stated politely should never be castigated as "obnoxious" "bad behavior", or "idiotic".

And, most importantly, newbies should be encouraged - not told that they should do better research! Every time the same basic question is asked and answered about growing roses, a new contact has been made between PEOPLE, not data bases. This is so important to encourage those who are just starting out, so that they don't get discouraged and give up. Just my opinion -

Jackie

"At I first I thought all I have to do is convince people it could be better, but I realised quickly I had to convince people it even existed." - Lewis MacAdams

Here is a link that might be useful: Re: Lewis MacAdams

I agree with flori, some people nit pick about what I feel are pretty trivial things.

I also agree with Jacki, people, newbies in particular, should be encouraged to post and ask questions and not vilified for it. New people stimulate the whole forum and that's a good thing. It would get pretty boring around here if the same 10 people were the only ones to post over and over again.

I read the same questions over and over anyway. Surprisingly even with subjects that have been hashed and rehashed new things do come up now and then. And it never hurts to review things. There may be some point that you forgot or skipped that could be important. I've tried the search function but it isn't always that helpful or specific. So if I ask a stupid question (and in my opinion there is no such thing) or a question that's been asked before, my apologies. Just skip it and move on to the next post. I won't be offended.