The classification and description of a rose come from the person or persons who register it.
Thus, they decide whether it was a field of yellow with red stripes, or a field of red with yellow stripes, or perhaps a non-specific yellow-and-red blend.

You or I might choose to argue with their description, but of course, we're probably not growing it in the conditions or the location where THEY grew it, so it's hard to argue with their choice.

Jeri

So, Jeri, you are saying there is no "real" difference between a rose which has yellow stripes on a red field or one which as red stripes on a yellow field???? That it's just how the breeder decided to describe it?

I somehow thought there were probably genes which determined the background color and other genes which determined if there were going to be stripes and yet other genes which determined the color of the stripes....

I guess that's what I get for thinking.

I would think, Susan, it would be by the predominating color of the petals. Ralph Moore sought to create yellow with red striping because red with other color stripes were so common in his breeding. If the most common permutation demonstrated by the rose is of yellow petals with other colored variations, it could be thought of as yellow with stripes. If the predominant color is red with other color variations, it would be the more commonly demonstrated variation.

This photo of Brush Strokes http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.148718 demonstrates the yellow ground with red variations. Should the variety usually demonstrate that behavior, it should be considered yellow with red stripes and splotches. Like this one of Radio. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.140771

Red Intuition would be characterized as red ground with pink to white variations. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.180780

If it's so variable that one color doesn't dominate, such as Oranges and Lemons, then it would be orange and yellow striped. http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.4594&tab=36

But, breeding a yellow rose with other colored stripes is far more difficult than breeding a red or pink with white variations. The closest Mr. Moore came was Earthquake http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.1696&tab=36 ; Double Treat http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.1606&tab=36 ; and Little Tiger http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.3867&tab=36 .

The more common types he regularly found in his seedlings were like:

Twister http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.6357&tab=36

Charlie Brown http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.1092&tab=36

Stars'n'Stripes http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.5963&tab=36

Kim Rupert http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.37686&tab=36

Pinstripe http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.4871

Joan Austin http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.3507&tab=36

Cee Dee Moss http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.1032&tab=36 This one tickled him to name. The parent was Carolyn Dean and he liked "see the" moss of the Cee Dee name.

Where red to pink, most often with lighter pink to white variations appear over the darker color. Add the very temporary nature of yellow pigments, quickly fading to very light yellow to near white and it makes obtaining a good yellow variegated petal even more of a find.

Orange with white (Tiger Tail http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.21944.2&tab=36 ) and mauve with variations of mauve to purple with white (Secret Recipe http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.5677&tab=36 and Purple Tiger http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.2285&tab=36 ) are even more difficult to create. Tawny Tiger http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.37076&tab=36 melds several difficult traits together in one rose.

And to think, they all came from Ferdinand Pichard with Little Darling, through minis all the way back to big roses and climbers. Who would have thought it? Kim

No, Jeri is correct that it is up to the breeder to determine what to register the rose as. Ralph Moore registered Mr. Bluebird as a mini in 1960, even though by breeding it is reportedly pure China, being Old Blush X Old Blush, whether you choose to believe it or not, that's how he reported it. When I asked why he registered a China as a mini, his response was, "Kim, WHO bought China roses in 1960?"

But, you are correct that there are genes governing background color as well as all other pigments expressed in the entire plant. There are expressors which intensify traits and inhibitors which tone them down, sometimes to the point of making them disapper. Your thinking worked perfectly. Kim

So, thank you Jeri and Kim, and of course more questions. Kim while you were typing all that information out I was reading an article by Frank Moore on Paul Barden's old website, and .... so....

you are saying that somewhere way back when Brush Strokes took its tendency to stripe from that crossing of Ferdinand Pichard with Little Darling. Yes?

Here is a link that might be useful: Ralph Moore on Striped Roses

I'd have to know its pedigree to answer that (perhaps Kim does?).

I'm guessing that stripes are a recessive characteristic, so it would probably be, like, my Dalmatians have long hair because they carry the gene for long hair on both sides of their pedigrees.

Jeri

Not a question but a statement. THIS is a beautiful striped rose. This picture is not my rose, but mine looks more like this than any of the other pictures at HMF.

Here is a link that might be useful: Claude Monet

Yes, Susan. Ralph Moore selected Ferdinand Pichard to use to breed striped roses because it was the only striped rose which had no listed parentage, meaning, the only one which wasn't listed as a sport or mutation. He theorized that it MIGHT have been a seedling and might have the potential for passing on the striping.

He raised many seedlings, most of which were once flowering, few with any striping at all, and all of which terribly susceptible to mildew and black spot. A very few showed any striping, and even then, only on a few petals per flower. Through selection of seedlings and further breeding, he obtained Stars'n'Stripes. That was named for the Bicentennial and released in 1976, bred from one of his two first striped breeders.

These were 14 Stripe and 26 Stripe, from the same year and same parents, Little Darling (seed) and Ferdinand Pichard (pollen). 14 Stripe was the fourteenth seedling to flower from that cross in that year. 26 Stripe, the 26th to flower from the same cross the same year. His tracking numbers used a number for the cross, the year it first flowered and the number of the seedling in flowering order. 14 Stripe was a climbing striped rose. 26 Stripe was bushy. Its code number was 10-69-26 Stripe, meaning the cross of Little Darling X Ferdinand Pichard was the 10th combination of parents made in 1969, and this was the 26th seedling of the cross to flower. His shorthand made it 26 Stripe.

Cee Dee Moss is the only released seedling out of 14 Stripe, all the rest originating with 26 Stripe, and its descendants, which he preferred because it was more dwarf and bushy and created dwarf, bushy striped seedlings. No one else was working with stripes prior to this.

He loved to tell the story of Sam McGredy wanting a plant of his Pinstripe (1986) which was a more dwarf, bushy, double flowered stripe. Mr. Moore was still exploring Pinstripe's breeding potential and hadn't introduced it commercially yet. He didn't want to let it go prematurely, so he offered Mr. McGredy plants of Stars'n'Stripes, suggesting he raise some self seedlings of it to fix the more dwarf, bushy character and create better breeding material from it. From McGredy's striped rose releases, he didn't follow the advice, as they were, for many years, pretty much climbing types. Even his larger striped roses, such as Oranges and Lemons were, in warmer climates, rangier shrubs demonstrating the real urge to climb. It's the reason I've frequently teased "you can tell it's a McGredy as it's suitable for pegging!"

It is a very safe bet that today's modern, inheritable stripes have all originated from Mr. Moore's seminal work with Little Darling and Ferdinand Pichard. There are no records of anyone replicating his efforts using anything other than Ferdinand Pichard to create them. What had been a hit and miss proposition, the inheritance of striped petals, he selected into being a trait quite easily bred into any size, type and nearly any color you wish to create. Why would anyone choose to reinvent that wheel, when perfected examples of it could so readily and easily be obtained?

Taking the stripes from the original parents, through his miniatures which contained genes from healthy, vigorous species, much of the rangy, climbing character has been selected out, along with much of the mildew and black spot. Not all of it, of course, as that is likely impossible using the set of genes we continue to over milk, but the health, vigor, even beauty and habit of today's modern stripes are light years superior to the originals.

Perhaps striped petals were originally recessive, but with the selection and selfing which has been carried on for the better part of half a century, striped flowers can be raised from only one parent possessing stripes. Pinstripe when crossed with Maestro created Peppermint Twist, which, when crossed with Playboy, resulted in Scentimental. So, the maternal grandmother was a striped mini, three quarters of the genes are unstriped, larger roses and the result is a striped large rose.

All of which really should inspire the question, how can a lightly scented mini, when crossed with three larger roses unknown for their scent, result in a highly scented rose? Still so much to learn! Kim

Wonderful thread! Reminds me of the kinds of conversations we used to have on this forum ten and fifteen years ago. I am simply delighted to see this kind of in-depth conversation show up again.

Not that the other kinds are not fun, too. They certainly are. But it is nice to have this included in the mix.

Rosefolly

So, landperson, where did you find this brushstrokes on this side of the pond? I've been collecting stripes for years and haven't come across this one.
Kathy

Karen, Brush Strokes seems to be what I got instead of this

Here is a link that might be useful: Marjolaine NOT

Kim.......

Since Susan is asking about genes carrying a trait, it seems appropriate to ask this question in this thread.

I can't remember whether this snippet of information came from a discussion with Mr. Moore or through you in a discussion I had with one of you years ago, but I seem to remember that the striping trait is a form of virus that does not harm the plant but creates a bloom that is not fully saturated with color and that it is primarily carried through the pollen parent.

This question has been bothering me because I haven't found confirmation while doing some research last night.

Did I remember it correctly ?

Smiles,
Lyn

Who is now off to haul more rocks up stairs.

I love striped roses and this is all fascinating information. As usual, Kim, you are a fount of good information!

When I first read the question I looked at Brush Strokes and thought maybe the color designation was based on the predominant color of the parents. But the seed parent was an unknown seedling and the pollen parent is Solitaire which is very red so I guess that isn't any clue.

I guess it really is all up to the whims of the breeder. And we all know some of them have been a little capricious in their choices from time to time, lol! I love hearing Ralph Moore stores! He must have been quite the character and I wish I'd had the chance to meet him, Devilish sense of humor!

Now, I love stripes, but yellow/red/orange stripes don't really appeal to me ... So, EYE would love to have "Marjolaine-NOT."
That's right up my alley.

And, BTW, I grew Ferdinand Pichard himself, years ago, and it's a VERY nice rose in and of itself. It was vigorous and disease-resistant here at the coast, and I'd recommend it highly for my area.

Jeri
Coastal Ventura County, SoCal

I have the rose Scentimental. Our climate in Florida does some interesting things to this striped rose. Right now it is almost totally pinkish red. Sometimes in the coldest winters it is nearly totally white. I get the regular stripes in more moderate temperatures. I don't know if it is the sunlight or the temperatures that influence this.

Morning Lyn! There are known viruses which cause striping in flowers. Striped tulips, IIRC, are either thought or known to be viral. To the best of my knowledge, no one has tested striped roses for a color breaking virus. Discussing the virus issue with several people and reading Henry's marvelous contributions, I believe the jury is still out on whether virus can be or definitely is transmitted to seeds from either parent. Also, IIRC, there is thought it could be, but there are many viruses and only a small percentage are what we actually have isolated and can test for.

So, if the viruses don't infect seeds and aren't transmitted to the seedlings from the parents, how can striping in roses be viral? If it is viral, why would using other sources of striped petals result in unstriped seedlings? Why would the initial striped X unstriped seedlings have shown so many with only one or two petals demonstrating stripes? Why would it have taken as many seedlings to fix the striping patterns, instead of it happening quickly as if it was an infection? I'm not saying it isn't an infection nor that it can't be one, just raising the questions which come to mind and make me doubt it.

It would be interesting for someone to heat treat striped roses to determine if the heat removes the stripes as it reportedly did in tulips.

Hi Seil, thanks! It's FUN remembering and sharing them. Yes, Ralph was a character and one of the kindest, gentlest souls I've ever been blessed to know. One of the marvelous things about his sense of humor was it never was at anyone's expense. Roy Hennessey was well known, quite infamous for being "hot headed" and quite a bit profane. When Ralph recounted his visit to him and letters he knew of flying from him to others, his comment was, "Roy's letters would be STEAMING!" Yet, Hennessey never sent a steaming letter to Ralph Moore. He never condemned a person, though he could and would condemn an act the person committed.

We know enough about genetics of roses to make educated guesses about many facets, but it's still up to them as to what comes out. Selection has at times, seemed "capricious" to us, but we have to remember a number of things. Pernet-Ducher slaved to incorporate the Foetida yellow into HTs. When asked, years later, "what about the black spot?" His surprised, honest reply was, "WHAT black spot?" In his climate, there wasn't any black spot, so how could he have known or attempted to breed or select for resistance? Mr. Moore bred some rather interesting Rugosa hybrids, one of which he gave to Tom Carruth for Week's to evaluate and then shared plants with several others and myself. I reported back to him some time later that while I enjoyed the plant and thought it pretty, it rusted terribly for me. He was surprised and stated Tom had reported the same thing. It didn't rust for him as his climate didn't support the fungal growth. It was too hot and too arid. It wasn't until several years later the weather pattern there allowed that rose to rust and then it was terrible.

The same holds true for his Bracteata hybrids. In his green houses and field, they were clean. Most weren't in my garden, though I still admire them and study them in amazement that so much of the wild nature of Bracteata could be tamed out of it in such short a time.

Unless you can test the rose in many climates quite different from your own, there honestly is no way to know what to expect of it. Unfortunately, many to whom they were given with the expectation of hearing back about performance, didn't report back.

The same goes for parent selection. In Visalia's climate, many roses were very clean, unless grown in ghettos of very close proximity. The green houses were so hot, fungi didn't grow most of the year. Out in the open ground, it was usually quite arid, preventing the spores from germinating, but when pots were grown in very close proximity, raising the humidity and reducing air circulation, and with the overhead spray of irrigation, when the weather was mild enough, black spot did grow. Those areas and in those seasons, they had to spray. But, the same roses planted out in rows, were very often extremely healthy. He would never introduce a rose which demonstrated moderate to extreme disease issues for him. That was completely against his focus, goals and ideals. There were many VERY good seedlings he never released because they wouldn't root easily. He demanded from his work the plant be bushy, of acceptable size for its type, easy to root and grow own root, with good disease resistance in his climate, with an attractive flower. Unless he was evaluating his Halo Roses, then the flower took a higher importance as that was the desired characteristic. Even those, though, were held to higher standards. If the plant was a down right dawg, it didn't see other gardens.

Breeding selections do seem questionable sometimes. There are times when a rose is used because it is SO fertile, everything takes on it. Very useful for difficult pollen. Some are frequently used because every seed germinates well and makes vigorous babies. Particularly when working with crested or moss pollen, this can be quite difficult as they are generally not very fertile. It took quite a few years to create seed fertile moss parents, partly due to the infertility and scarcity of moss pollen, as well as the "mossing factor" as he called it. Pollen would sometimes take and result in some interesting seedlings which demonstrated absolutely no moss or cresting. Nice, but not if those are the desired traits you're seeking. The choice of parents is often limited by which roses will express the characteristic you seek. I personally don't care for the rose Rumba, nothing about it "speaks" to me. But, it had bright colors with an acceptable plant in his climate. Most importantly, the scarce, precious pollen took on it and the seedlings expressed his sought after mossing. Very few other seed parent selections produced mossy babies. This characteristic can quickly turn on and off depending upon the choice of other parent.

Consider Rainforest. Sheri Anne, the little orangeish mini named for his grand daughter, has light prickles, some, but not overly so. Apply the pollen from Scarlet Moss, one of the prickliest roses to have come from Sequoia in many years. Orange, lightly prickled with no moss mini, times saturated scarlet, intensely prickly mossed smaller shrub, results in pink to green? and often nearly thornless? What?! Nothing we know explains that.

Then, a very real issue to consider...after studying the lineage of his Halo Roses, as Hulthemia has been one of my intense interests for many years, and I have been fascinated how he could select and create that look without using any Hulthemia genes, I asked him WHY he chose to intensify and enlarge the lavender petal base on Anytime by crossing it with such a TERRIBLE rose as Angel Face. The response was simple, honest, innocent and totally pragmatic..."Because, I HAD it."

I had studied, discussed, researched the backgrounds then set off to collect what I thought would be the best for me to use to achieve the goals I held dear at the time. Very easy, fun and nice for the idealistic hobbyist. But, when the mortgage payment depends upon speed of results, you use what you have. It had large flowers, flowered quite a bit, was surely fragrant enough and performed well enough in pots in the nursery. It has disease issues, but not particularly bad in his climate. It also is so fertile you can nearly pollinate it with dirt. Every seed germinates and the vast majority are mauve, which is what he sought from the cross. Necessity is the mother...

Part of it is the whimsy of the breeder. But, as he loved to say, "Just when you think you know the rules, the rose changes them!" A friend recently shared with me a saying from his culture, "Man plans, God has a sense of humor!". Oh, yeah!

A friend's favorite story about Ralph Moore occurred at an ARS meeting where a gentleman was beating him up over why breeders don't get busy and make GOOD yellow roses. Ralph, as was his way, patiently allowed the man to finish, looked him squarely in the eye and calmly stated, "If you KNEW what it took to get where we are now, you'd be on your knees thanking rose breeders you HAVE yellow roses!"

How can scentless roses create highly scented ones? How can highly scented roses when bred together create unscented ones? How can saturated orange when crossed with saturated scarlet produce pink turning green? How can two extremely prickly roses create a virtually thornless baby? How can a striped rose result from only one quarter of its line containing stripes?

Then, just as you think you know, Jim Sproul in Bakersfield, who has done amazing things with Hulthemia, taking it decades past where Harkness and Ralph Moore were able to take it, in just a few years (comparatively) found the petal blotch the type is famous for, is evolving into a stripe down the mid rib of the petal! "Just when you THINK you know the rules...." Kim

If I read this portion of the Ralph Moore article that I linked to previously, I think he's saying that roses have been heat tested:

"On the other hand, many of the old striped or variegated roses, including all (or nearly all) the striped gallicas, are striped because of certain rose viruses. This should not seem unusual, as the striped tulips and nearly all the striped camellias are also caused by virus. Evidence of the viral origin of the old gallicas and certain other striped roses came about when some of these varieties were given heat treatment to eliminate certain other suspected viruses. Young plants were grown in a changer under high intensity fluorescent lights and kept at 100 degrees fahrenheit for several weeks to rid the plants of any viral disease. After such treatment, the virus-free plants had lost their stripes! Thus the striping was not an inheritable genetic trait. And the other striped roses, originating as bud sports, also did not pass on this characteristic to the offspring. "

I once mentioned to Tom Carruth that I enjoyed seeing the "quilted" look of Ferdinand Pichard's leaves show up in 'Scentimental.'

Tom expressed surprise that F.P. was back there.
Tom was working from Pinstripe, which came from No. 33 Stripe, which came from No. 26 Stripe, which came from Ferdinand Pichard.

You could be surprised at seeing a characteristic like that appear generations down the line -- but then imagine the shock suffered by a breeder of Dalmatians who gets a litter of long-haired puppies -- not realizing that both parents carried that gene.

SURPRISE!

Jeri

Thanks for bringing that back to my recollection, Susan. Sometimes things get lost in the "soup". It's surprising hearing that FP was as good as it was for Jeri. It was horrid in Santa Clarita where fungal issues were fewer and farther between. Mildew and black spot were terminal with it there, as with the rust on Neyron. Location, location, location. The only thing I can figure is the extreme aridity of the Newhall (Santa Clarita) garden led to faster water stress, which triggered the disease issues. I recently posted to my blog about "forcing" R. Arkansana to rust in Encino and how insuring more frequent, regular watering has cleared the issue up. No real change in conditions, still in the same pot in exactly the same place, just more water. I guess another example of water being our best fertilizer, fungicide and insecticide. Kim

Re FP growing well for Jeri: If there is one thing (and there are certainly lots more than that) I have learned on this forum it is that at least one or two or three someones have been dismayed or disappointed by every one of the 260 or so roses that I grow.

I have never found a rose that doesn't grow here, so I just have to stay completely out of and away from any "recommendations" and "suggestions" threads.

Everything grows here....Lucky me...

Susan

Uh, landperson, the rose you have, MarjolaneNot, also does not appear to be BrushStrokes. The Brushstrokes on HMF looks about like George Burns. The MarjolaneNot picture on Vintage's site has no yellow in it and very different form. I was actually thinking it reminded me more of Soutine, which is one that Vintage carries sometimes, and I think Cliff had it too. Or maybe Modern Times. Or Candy Stripe. Or maybe Broceliande (which I know Cliff had) . . . There are lots of possibilities.

And as I said, I've been collecting stripes for years (have over 80) and have been to Cliff's place a few times, and if he had one I didn't have, I would usually buy it on the spot. I don't think I ever saw anything called Brushstrokes in his collection. So anyways . . . don't know what that is, but you probably could call it MarjolaneNot BrushStrokesAlsoNot.

Kathy

Here is a link that might be useful: My Soutine

KStrong, I understand why you are confused, so am I, but remember that you have not seen a picture of the rose that I actually have. The rose that I actually have looks nothing at all like the one pictured on Vintage's site. It has no white. It is red and yellow.

I agree that the picture at Vintage's website might be of Soutine, but my rose is definitely not. It is most definitely red stripes on a yellow field. And you are probably right that my identification of it as Brush Strokes is incorrect, since the rose did definitely come to Vintage from Cliff. I like your label idea: henceforth she will be BS-NOT.

Kathy, you have opened up a whole can of worms here and I am going to have to pay more attention. I just went outside to water and looked at Marjolaine-NOT/BS-NOT and tonight at the very end of her cycle one of the blooms is predominantly red and white....sheesh. So, my question to you is this: does Soutine ever show yellow in the background? Even when those petals on my no-name rose fell to the ground I can see the yellow at their bases, so I know I did not imagine that they used to be yellow, but now I'm not as certain as I was of....anything.

I haven't a clue, but I wanted to make sure not to have come across as if I did....have a clue that is.....:-)))

That isn't surprising Susan, you know how fleeting yellow is in roses. It just faded out. Kim

Well, that does it. I really really am going to have to master my new camera so I can take lots of pictures of this rose and see if I can figure out who she really is. I mean I can live with "Marjolaine NOT BrushStokes NOT" but it's a bit cumbersome and a lot to put on a label....:-))))

Susan, Soutine does not have any yellow, so that's not it. But there are many that do that "yellow fading out" thing, Broceliande comes to mind first and I know Cliff had that one. In fact, most yellows are rather fleeting in hot sun -- it's a goal for hybridizers to get the yellow to stick in high temps and not fade -- that's the reason St. Patrick did so well for so long in the hybrid tea market. Because its color doesn't fade out and, unlike most yellows, it likes hot. But it's the same theory with stripes -- the yellow parts often fade out. You ARE going to have to take lots of pics if you want help with the ID.

Kathy

Kathy, Kim, everybody. This is going to be fun. As soon as I get a new bloom and can get a picture, I will start a new thread and maybe we can all figure out what this rose really is. Meanwhile I will look up/at Broceliande and see if that solves the mystery right now....

Thanks for piquing my curiosity further

Here is a link that might be useful: Broceliande

Keep in mind, it was exactly the desire to create a saturated, unfading yellow that led Pernet-Ducher to introduce Foetida into modern roses, complete with all of the associated disease, climate, growth and fading issues. It has taken the better part of the last century to breed and select as good yellow roses as we have, hence Mr. Moore's comment about thanking breeders for any yellow roses.

Many amateurs are seeking a more stable source of brilliant yellow, hopefully, without the foliage and growth issues. Browse the Rose Hybridizers Association for threads related to this search. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: RHA Forum

No longer on topic of how, but I just saw this picture on HMF and thought you stripe lovers just might join me in a group drool.....:-)))) Or maybe it's not your kinda stripe, and maybe I wouldn't even love the whole rose, but this picture ??? I love it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Another stripe

Thanks Susan, I noticed that last night. If only that was available twenty years ago! Ironically, now I could suggest to you how to create something like that! Kim

Okay, Kim. You're on. How?

Hey Kathy! Tell you what, I'll start a new thread for the suggestions so I don't hijack this one. Kim

I was very interested to hear you talk about Angel Face, Kim. I've been using it for several years in my crosses with very little success. It sets hips but few seeds germinate and a lot of them don't seem to make it. Those that survive are truly awful! Weak, spindly, disease ridden things with lack luster mauve blooms.

Each time a new "break through" rose becomes popular, there is the rush to use it to the point of over use. Grey Pearl, Pinocchio, Peace, Queen Elizabeth, Lavender Pinocchio, Sterling Silver, Angel Face and many others were forced into every breeder's lines, now Living Easy, Knock Out and several others are the studs to make the next "wave". There is great push to continue using what worked and made other commercial roses. More push comes from memories of how wonderful the variety was and can be, but in my opinion, going backwards and using older roses, particularly ones with such severe issues over much of the country, tends to give you less of anything you want. In many places, AF is a real weed when it comes to fertility and it does create many mauve seedlings, but that comes at too high a price when considering vigor, health and habit.

You'd probably be much better off choosing a newer, healthier mauve rose to play with. Whichever one performs well in your area would make significantly better babies for your breeding, presuming it is fertile where you are. There was a mauve modern introduced just this year, IIRC, bred from AF. I remember thinking, why would anyone DO that? Considering how bad many of its seedlings are, the thing can't be very good many places.

Each decade, the bar is raised significantly concerning health, vigor, performance. Why stand in a hole when you're trying to reach higher? Kim

It's called Singin' the Blues, Star/Meilland put it out and I am about to get rid of it. The best newer "blue" florries here are Blueberry Hill and Blue for You. Both are MUCH better than Singing the Blues.

Do you grow Rhapsody in Blue, Kathy! I'm interested to hear how it compares to Blue For You (which I love!) in the same garden. Blueberry Hill has been out for some time. I didn't like how it stopped flowering in my heat as jiminshermanoaks reports Rhapsody in Blue does for him. I like the deeper character of these two and improved foliage over older types. It will be interesting playing with them with Tom Carruth's better purples. Tom's purples have played a role in Jim Sproul's vastly improved Hulthemia foliage.

Yes, Singin' the Blues is the one I meant. What a terrible waste of a decent name. And, it's from Meilland. You KNOW they know better! What a disposable introduction! Kim

I do grow Rhapsody in Blue. It's been in the ground here for about 4 years and is about 10-12 feet tall, although I train it along the top of a fence. Grows like a typical climber here. It LOVES fog, and a totally opaque June gloom brings on the flowers and the best colors, unlike any other rose. No disease, ever, and I usually skip it when spraying the others. It HATES temps above about 78 and totally shuts down then, no growth no nothing if temps reach 80. Fortunately, our highs in mid-summer top out at about 85 here, and then only once in a while, so this is its one and only climate of choice.

I've grown Blue for You for about 2 years now in a pot, and it has been a happy little camper here, and I've been spreading it far and wide, as it propagates very easily. I love it too.

I didn't even know that Blueberry Hill stopped blooming/growing in heat, I guess because it doesn't get hot here and no one mentioned that to me before. And actually, the one I grow is the striped sport of it, Tejoe. I don't have the solid colored one. Rhapsody in Blue's dislike for heat on the other hand is well documented (and incessantly complained about) whenever anyone mentions that rose's name. But, I like it.

Lavender Spoon is the other lavender that I am totally in love with. But it needs to be on roots other than its own. On Pink Clouds (thanks to Burling) it is stupendous.

Kathy

Going back to my previous mis-identification of Marjolaine-NOT as Brush Strokes, today Gregg Lowery confirmed that the rose he got from Cliff and I got from Vintage is Broceliande. End of THAT story....whew......

Here is a link that might be useful: Broceliande

Thank you for that information, Kathy. I've not grown Rhapsody in Blue, though I LOVE the name and the musical piece. I love seeing it at jiminshermanoaks' house and photos on line. I just don't need another rose that shuts down above the high seventies, which six months of the year are here. I'd think shying away from things bred from it should be a better idea, too. I agree about Blue for You being wonderful. I'm pimping pollen on and from it like mad this year.

Lavender Spoon I grew in Newhall from Ray directly. It was OK, but it was also own root. I'm increasingly avoiding roses which require budding and sticking with those which root well and grow well own root right here. It makes it more difficult to breed for that trait when parents require budding. Kim