I ask Starbucks for bags of used coffee grounds. Earthworms love it.

Mauvegirl -- It's going to take more than a five-minute explanation, but if you are not using sprays to kill the few harmful insects around, you will also not kill the many GOOD insects which if allowed to will eat most of the bad bugs. Nature will balance out, and create a healthy environment.

It is a slower way to garden. It may take patience and -- often -- less money and sometimes a more work. But it is healthier for you, and your pets and children.

Jeri

That perfectly explains it, jerijen!

All I can add is that I quit spraying about 12 years ago, and yes, it did take awhile for everything to adjust, but the benefits are such I would never think of spraying again. We have tons of beneficial insects, anoles, gheckos, etc (even in the house). They seem to take care of the problems just fine!

I did not spray for the rose slugs this year, we have never had this many roses or rose slugs. Those old leaves look pretty sad

But, we have tons of parasitic wasps here now (not saw flies) looking for bugs to eat. (Not yellow jackets either)

Wonder how they will effect future rose slugs and if the wasps will be here earlier next rose slug season

We have so many different creatures in our garden ranging from bobcats to bees, with roadrunners, small frogs, lizards, snakes and different birds in between, and I'd feel terrible if I were to hurt any of them. I've never sprayed chemicals and use only organic planting soil and fertilizer, and I can't imagine gardening any other way. If there are plants that don't do well with this regimen I don't keep them, but actually I've only discarded roses and other plants because they couldn't tolerate the heat here, not because of disease problems. Having dry and warm weather also helps of course. We don't know for sure that these chemicals won't also harm people and pets and I'm not willing to take that chance.

Ingrid

Even here in the mid-atlatic, where blackspot and japanese beetles are a real problem, I don't spray. I live with defoliation and deer-munched tips for all the reasons above. All manner of critters depend on my garden. I don't want chemicals in them, in their water, in the water table. To me, spraying is an ego-trip. Love of living things, love of gardens, even love of beauty take second place to the sprayer's desire to put on a show and be admired. Nature is not picture-perfect. It is a continual balance of forces.

Spraying is like the lady in the patio home on the next street over who tried to shoot my cat because he catches the occasional bird. A developer bull-dozed a hillside, cut down forest and scrub, built huge patio homes surrounded by chemicalized lawns. She moved in and wants to kill my cat for killing off the wildlife.

Can someone tell me the negatives to the environment and animals, if one only sprays for Blackspot with a fungicide? I am trying to go as organic as I can, but Blackspot is my main enemy...and was thinking a fungicide wouldn't be that bad for the environment and creatures in the garden...nor myself. Am I a bit uneducated on the subject...I am happy to hear some feedback and consider changing my ways.

Thanks,

Steve

I second catsrose's observation. My last house is only 1/2 hour away but with acidic soil and neutral tap water. I had the worst infestation of aphids and blackspots despite using Bayer's Insecticides, and spraying for BS frequently. A neighbor made a caustic remark, "why do you even bother growing roses with all that spraying?"

So I quit altogether for 15 years - zero roses, until I fell in love with fragrances at the rose park. Coming back to roses is easier with my present house in alkaline soil, with well water high in lime (a natural fungicide). I don't spray, don't use insecticides. Surprisingly zero aphids, no mildew, insignificant BS even with humid and rainy weather.

I bought Paul Neyron, a disease-fest, on purpose to experiment. He broke out in BS when I lower the pH of my well water by used lemons. He broke out in BS in compacted clay mixed with acidic peat moss. Finally I moved him to composted pine bark (has tannin, a natural fungicide) amended with lime (another fungicide). He's 100% clean for the past several months.

Scentsational mini is a blackspot magnet, it's clean by mulching with horse manure (has lime, high in potassium, plus stay dry even watered, so BS can't germinate). Another person reported that she mulched her pot with banana peels (has potassium to fight diseases), and she didn't get BS either. I have never seen a mold growing on banana peels, but I have seen plenty of mold on strawberries, lemon rinds, peaches, and other wet acidic fruits.

Hi Steve: Dr. Henry Kuska, a retired chemistry professor and rosarian who posted info. on eye damage with spraying, also posted studies that show aphids increased with insecticides. Treating the cause rather than symptoms is more effective, and cheaper in the long run.

The cause of diseases? Something out of whack with nature, something out of balance, either too acidic, too much salt through fertilizer, too much nitrogen acting as aphids-magnet, or too much chemicals that kill beneficial organisms that hold diseases in check. Dr. Henry Kuska got his Ph.D. in Chemistry in 1965 from Michigan State University (that's when I'm still in diapers). He posted a few research links that showed bacteria in horse manure suppress pathogens. Health is a balance of organisms, rather than dumping chemicals and throwing things out of whack. I made my mistake putting chemical fertizer on Mary Magdalene early this summer. She's the only rose that broke out in mildew, despite tons of water given. I had to scrape off the salty fertilizer, then zero mildew afterwards. I also got her leaves all wet with my water high in lime, which acts as fungicide.

There's a farm report that showed mulching with lime pellets and using sulphate of potash yielded the HIGHEST harvest in soybean, beating fungicides and fungicides plus insecticides. Lime is a natural fungicide, sulphate of potash is highest in potassium, which increases bloom production, strengthen stems, and fight diesases. Both are cheaper than fungicides, and help the soil. EarthCo. that tested my soil stated that 1/3 of soil tested are deficient in potassium.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pellet of lime and potash beat fungicide in yield

Steve, another way to approach this problem is to do some research or even ask on this forum which roses are the most resistant to blackspot in your area and then concentrate on those. Half the battle, no matter where you live, is to grow the roses that are best suited to your environment. My problem is excessive heat and I'm constantly studying which roses best fit my conditions. I've had to discard quite a few but consider it worth the money and having to start over again with a small plant if it will give me the effect I want.

Honestly, Steve, the effects of fungicide used in a garden are going to vary widely with the fungicidal chemical used. You'd have to research a specific chemical, to learn its desirable and un-desirable effects.

I cannot speak to blackspot. It is a rare visitor in my area. We, instead, can potentially deal with powdery mildew, rust, anthracnose, and cercospora.

In our garden, a rose that is constantly troubled by disease is simply removed. There are THOUSANDS and thousands of roses. We look for those less-likely to have disease problems. Taking that approach, we have a garden with very little disease.

We think this is a safer and more pleasant approach to rose-disease control.

Jeri

I agree with Jeri and Ingrid. I bought Paul Neyron for experimental purpose, but he's like a fussy baby: needs pefect soil to stay clean. If he's not 100% thornless it's not worth it.

I planted Honey Bouquet where Paul Neyron acted up. Honey Bouquet is 100% clean and TOUGH. My soil is not perfect so I need newly-bred TOUGH roses. Kordes "Flower-Carpet" is like perfect shiny plastic here, even if a crowded damp bed. Kordes "Deep Purple" is perfection, not a speck of disease.

I put up with older roses for the sake of fragrance alone, like Comte de Chambord, but he's never can be as TOUGH and "shiny plastic perfection" like Kordes roses. I think Kordes bred plastic into their roses' tissue. Just kidding.

Strawberry Hill, Ingrid and Jeri,

I appreciate your responses and for sharing your experiences and advice with me. I have replaced the roses in my garden, that had the biggest blackspot issues. This year I haven't hardly had any leaves end of with blackspot, but I do spray weekly with "Bonide 147 Systemic Disease Control". I will need to check the ingredients more closely. I will also maybe try cutting back and seeing how the roses do, and see if they can thrive without any spray at all. I tend to think, half the roses I have could probably do without spraying.

I just really love and am motivated to try growing all the roses that inspire me and testing how they do in my garden, even if they aren't supposed to be ideal to my area. Just this week I planted Grandmother's Hat, Rosette Delizy, General Gallieni, Mme. Antoine Mari and Mel's Heritage.

I recently went to the NYBG and looked at similar roses to mine, specially the Hybrid Perpetuals, Bourbons and Tea's and thought mine looked so much healthier and impressive, but that was the middle of the summer. It would just be really discouraging if I stopped spraying for blackspot and all those ended up looking ugly. I'll try to ween off it and see how they do though. I have gone organic, with fertilization, plus mulch and use cow manure compost....so I am trying to be better.

p.s. I am posting a pic of my "Reine des Violettes", just to share a rose pic.

Thanks! -Steve

NY_Steve--the organic gardeners are going to get mad as heck at me, but I am so tired of their exaggerations. The answer to your question is that if you spray a fungicide occasionally, especially in the spring and fall, and that is all you do (and I'm understanding your question that way), then not much damage will occur.

If you spray everything in sight all the time the way some posters describe above (and I don't know anyone in real life who does that), that might be a problem.

Now, if you have a large farm and are out there spraying acre after acre on a regular basis, that probably is a problem. I'm assuming you are talking about a small backyard garden, not a farm of many acres.

By the way, the really serious harm to the environment is caused by big farm businesses--agri-business. A backyard rose gardener growing 60 roses is not a major threat to the environment like agri-business can be.

Just use some sensible cautions. Spray early in the morning before the wind starts to blow--so the wind doesn't suddenly blow you a faceful of fungicide. Wear clothing that covers arms and legs and feet--and wash them immediately after spraying. Spray with a wand, so you can stand back further. Don't spray all your roses--spray only the ones showing initial BS problems. Plant disease-resistant roses--to cut down on the number of roses that need spraying and to cut down on the number of times a rose will need spraying. Don't spray a rose that does not have BS problems. I even let mild cases of BS go by with no spraying. Spray as little and as infrequently as you possibly can. I don't spray in the summer, for instance, because it is too hot here for roses to get BS--no point spraying if there are no BS problems.

Make sure you water and feed your roses regularly so that they are healthy and less likely to succumb to diseases. Quit planting your roses in the shade--that will cut down on the BS. Quit cramming them in tight for the so-called "cottage garden" look--leave space for air--that will cut down on BS.

OK--now wait and see. I have just given you advice on how to spray as seldom as possible and to use sensible cautions the few times you do spray a fungicide. This advice will probably, as usual, provoke several posters to outrage that I am recommending everybody should spray all the time and everything they can get their hands on. In fact, it may even be implied that I am of the devil's party because I do not think an occasional spray of fungicide in the home garden means the end of nature and civilization. It doesn't.

Kate

Kate,

I like your advice and for me it seems very practical and a good moderate approach. I have really only been rose gardening for the last 3 years, but have really gotten obsessed with it. I have about 85 roses in my backyard. I am originally from Los Gatos California, and am so jealous to see my Dad's and Mom's roses grow out there, California seems like the perfect place to grow roses. This NY area I am in now, seems like the growing season is so short. I really do love my collection of roses and am enjoying a great bloom right now, since the weather is back to the mid 80's and the rain stopped pouring down on us. I guess I should feel lucky it rains so much here though, hearing how dry and hot it is other places this year.

I appreciate everyone's posts, I have learned so much from everyone. I will attempt to be more and more organic in my garden. I am really looking forward to seeing my rose garden, once it matures in a few years.

By the way, speaking about Paul Neyron, I was just smelling it's beautiful bloom this morning...it's just a year old, but starting to do well for me...no blackspot at all...great fragrance. It is sprayed with fungicide though...

-Steve

Steve,

I have not sprayed insecticide or miticide in maybe fifteen years. But I spray fungicide every 2-4 weeks during the growing season. There are hardly any repeat-blooming roses that are disease resistant in my climate. I know that because for decades I tried planting roses that are widely considered disease-resistant and recommended as such by growers in other areas such as the Midwest and PNW. I also observe no-spray gardens in town. My garden is small, it's up-close, and it's almost all roses. If I didn't spray, my garden would be mostly leafless snags from June on.

For years I used sulfur (considered organic). It had to be applied every week without fail, and it wasn't fully effective. I changed to Bayer Disease Control because I got too lazy to spray every week.

The environmental hazards of tebuconazole in the home garden appear to be negligible, except that, with heavy use on sandy soil, there is danger of it percolating down into the ground water or aquifer. I don't think we can say for sure whether there is or is not a significant health hazard to the gardener from using tebuconazole or propiconazole with appropriate PPE. They seem to be safer than many pesticides of the recent past. But like a vast array of other synthetic chemicals that we are exposed to in various ways, they may be capable of mimicking sex hormones in the body, or in very large doses may cause cell changes, reproductive effects, or liver tumors in test animals. Women who are or might become pregnant should be particularly careful about exposure to synthetic pesticides.

Kate, I can't imagine your minimalist and common-sense approach for areas that have BS would provoke the kind of outcry you envision. I count myself lucky that I live in a climate that doesn't foster much disease, although this spring for the first time I saw mildew, blackspot and rust. Fortunately once it warmed up these things went away, but that's probably because of our low humidity. Not everyone is that lucky. I admit when I'm on the regular rose forum and someone says they spray religiously every two weeks that is distressing to me. It doesn't seem to be just an isolated poster either, probably because they grow mostly modern roses, many of which seem more disease-prone. As far as agribusiness is concerned, you're absolutely right and I tend to believe the greatly increased incidence of cancer, at younger ages than ever before, can at least partially be attributed to them.

Ingrid

Ingrid, I think it's because people are taught that they MUST spray regularly. We were taught to spray EVERY week, whether we saw problems or not.

And yes, I think over-use of all SORTS of chemicals (not just in gardens on roses) is probably a factor in the increased incidence of cancer, neurological diseases, and other really unpleasant things.

So -- I'm not showing roses anymore, and I like my garden, but not enough to do all that. And no, I wouldn't scream at someone who did do it. But their priorities are not mine.

Jeri

"Can someone tell me the negatives to the environment and animals, if one only sprays for Blackspot with a fungicide? "

When it comes to fungicide you need to worry about yourself first! Here's the warning on the label for Bonide captan fungicide:

DANGER: Causes irreversible eye damage.

Now this is a product that is atomized and sprayed in the air! How can you help but get it in your eyes unless you wear some kind of airtight goggles. Does anyone ever read these labels?

As for the primary difference between organic and chemical gardening: with chemical gardening you feed the plants; with organic gardening you feed the soil. Healthy soil will build healthy plants and a healthy environment for you, your family, and your neighborhood.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bonide warning label

I dunno, maybe stand upwind of the spray? (j/k)

Then again, I find the warning labels on cups of "OMG HOT!!" McD's coffee to insult my intelligence as well.

Well, I am considering starting to spray again, I haven't sprayed now for almost 3 years, the BS was the worst but I have replaced the most susceptible roses w/resistant ones... but now I may have to start spraying because of the Chili Thrips, this year they are decimating almost all my roses, even Belinda's Dream, there are a few it doesn't seem to affect, Ducher, Mrs. Cant,Louis P., Spice, Champney's Pink C., Prosperity.. and a few more.. but I have abt. 150 roses and those few that stay clean are but a drop in the bucket.... does anybody out there have a solution??? I don't want to start spraying again, but do understand that Spinosad has some control, but have read terrible things abt. it.... any comments or advice? thanx, sally

Saldut, spinosad is classed as a reduced risk pesticide and certified for use in organic agriculture. It has a low acute toxicity for us mammals and has less impact on beneficials than most insecticides.

And regarding captan, nobody with any sense has recommended captan for roses in a long time. It dates from the DDT era.

The link below discusses the potential problems with homeowners using Spinosad for Chili Thrips on ornamentals.

Here is a link that might be useful: background reading on Chili Thrips

That link also says that Spinosad works and it's one of the very few things found effective. The "potential problem" mentioned is the same thing I've read about mite control--overuse of any agent can lead to genetic mutation in the target where it becomes resistant to the -cide.

Mauvegirl, I quit spraying over 20 years ago. I really loved the birds & other critters in our big back yard. My great, grt, uncle was "the original organic gardener" who could grow anything & just KNEW all those sprays were "gonna kill us all".

What cinched it for me; though, was getting a pet duck. Diazanon is very toxic to birds, & there she was slapping around barefooted in the yard. I'd also heard some sad stories from friends who treated fire ant mounds & found dead birds the next day. You don't mention your zone, but mine was hot muggy Gulf coast for 30 years--bug heaven.

The first yr-18 months, yeah, the bugs exploded. But the explosion of "good" bugs, frogs, chameleons, toads, birds, geckos, fence lizards, etc. followed hard upon. I never have sprayed since. Yes, each year is different, dry years have more grasshoppers, wet ones more slugs, but their predators balance them out. Sometimes a particular plant may need personal intervention, but there are a number of harmless options, e.g. row-cover, pepper spray, etc.

I don't mean to criticize anyone who chooses to spray--I doubt that an exhibitor could work under wholly organic outdoor conditions--but it's a choice I feel happy with. One person from GW that I used to swap with a LOT commented that whenever she opened a box of plants I'd sent, there was a distinctly "sweet" smell to them, & she asked about the aggravation of going no-spray, intending to do so herself.

So, that's my long story, YMMV. (After too many pets, including Ducky, I'm a veg., too, LOL)

I see sprinklers causing fungal problems all the time. If you can time them so that the plants dry off early in the day it seems to work the best. I hand water when I have time. Some of the roses got very bad rust and BS. I dug them up and potted them to give away. I didn't want the new person to have a sick plant so I sprayed them. Then I put them on the side where I don't have roses. What do you know....they never got any new infections. I still have them on the side. The other roses are doing better without the roses nearby that always got sick. Maybe it's because the side yard never had roses that I didn't have old spores there. I'm not sure but they have been clean without spraying now for a year and a half. These were the ones that got sick first every year. Sometimes it gets very bad and I cut everything low,remove the mulch, spray and put new mulch down in our mild winter. I've only had to do that twice.

This year, it was a cool wet spring. The lower leaves got rust after the spring flush and I cut them off with a scissors. The new ones never got it. If you have time to get a jump on the problem leaves, it helps so much. Leaving them seems to make the problem build up and spread around until it's a huge headache. I don't know how it would work if it rained more except to say that I get the roses on the side in the quarantine area wet and they still don't get sick.

Thank you Henry, that is interesting but not very encouraging information.... and they list whitefly also, well, I stopped growing tomatoes for awhile because of that one, I tore out all my Hibiscus because it is a host, and stopped growing my pole-beans as well... I cut off all the canes on my KOs at the first sign of C-Thrips and bagged them into the trash, but it didn';t seem to help....I hate the idea of spraying again, but guess I'll have to re-arrange my gardens and put all the Bee-Bird-Butterfly plants out in the back-yard and not spray there and just spray the front where the roses are.. and hope the scientists come up with something better...thanks, sally

I think that roses are both fun and easy to grow organically, and so rewarding.

I've found that organic fertilizers build the soil to create an environment where roses thrive, even with blackspot present in the garden. The roses drop their leaves, however they grow well and bloom well. Blackspot does not diminish vigor or hardines.

I grow a wide variety of roses in my no-spray garden; growing roses organically has not put restrictions on the types of roses I'm able to grow.

Pete -- WE had whitefly years ago. Hibiscus in the area were, yes, particularly troubled.

Multiple things probably worked together in eliminating that problem:

1. We quit using insecticides.
2. The local Ag people released predatory wasps.
3. The farmers out on the Oxnard Plain quit using most non-specific insecticides, and -- instead -- began planting "insectaries" around the fields where the problems were concentrated.

Occasionally, we see a mild infestation, hosting on plumeria or wax begonias, and we make sure to "erase" all of their egg clusters. We really haven't seen them here in years now.

Jeri

I don't use anything but horse manure (when I plant) and water...and the roses are beautiful. I do think it's important though, to grow roses that are really meant for your area. Organic seems to work better, when you're growing a rose that's happy in your zone and/or climate.

I had gone completely organic years ago and have not sprayed at all for abt. 3 years, and was fairly successful, or so I thought, for this climate... so when those chili-thrips showed up I assumed it would be something I could handle...boy was I wrong! the first year was mild and little damage, last year was worse but not devastating, I cut off all new growth with the signs of damage... well, this year is the Armageddon! those nasties started in the KOs, so I cut it all off, then they zoomed onto Belinda's Dream ( all 5 of her) and then spread all over the garden, even onto most of the OGRs..also onto the peppers in the backyard... now most of the Modern roses are just dead sticks, the Don Juans are bare, BD turned all her affected leaves yellow and dropped them but is now starting to put out new growth..Julia Child is almost bare ( 3 of her), the only roses with no signs of damage are Spice, Louis P., 2 Drift roses, and a couple others the names have slipped me. So all the organic stuff and loving care came to naught, and I pray that you rosies in other locations have dodged the bullet, this bug is gradually covering a lot of territory and I don't think the Ag. Agents know what to do abt. it, yet... hopefully (for you-all) it doesn't like cold weather, my research indicates it prefers warm weather... but we just don't know yet. They thought the same thing abt. Termites, years ago- but now they find them in Toronto even. Pleasant thought....sally