Thanks for the tip about Susan Louise - mine has been languishing for 5 years in partial shade - I will put it in the hottest part of our garden and see if it likes it better!

Re "china blood" - all of the tea roses that you cite as thriving have "china blood".

Jackie

Right, Jackie; but does the china blood need odorata blood to be really comfortable in the heat?

Although the topic doesn't concern me directly, I enjoyed reading the informative lead post. Thanks for posting it.

Have you tried any of the Souvenir de la Malmaison family?

Interestingly, I've also noted that the Chinas don't do as well for me here as the teas. They seem to need more shade, and it always surprises me when people say both of these types should be planted in the hottest, sunniest part of the garden. Not true for me! I haven't found a single rose yet that adores the sun and reflected heat from my hilly, boulderstrewn property, even though they get plenty of water. They just tolerate it and some, like Le Vesuve and William R. Smith, better than others.

Ingrid

Ingrid, I've also found some chinas do better than others. Old Blush does fine here while Rival de Paestrum is a skeleton right now (lost all his leaves in the heat). Le Vesuve does ok but not great like some of my teas. It's interesting to watch how they differ in their heat tolerance.

Michaelg, I do grow SDLM and she does great here. I forgot to include her in the list. She does mildew alot in the spring though.

I'm hoping to encourage others in my climate to grow OGR's as so many of the teas do so well here.

Jasper, we need more folks who can report on a hot, dry, climate like yours. That's a real service. Thank you!

Jeri (near the Ventura Co. Coast)

Gosh, do you have a bunch of beautiful roses!
Laura

My thanks, too. It's always good to get an informational post like this one. How do you grow your roses: mulch and fertilizer, soil, water; do they get any protection from wind and sun?
Melissa

This is an interesting post. While i'm not located in the desert, the heat in TX and OK this year was nearly equal to many hot spots in the desert SW. This was the hottest summer on record w/ June - Aug averaging well above 100* for daily highs and lows in the 80*'s. The drought here is among the worst on record also. I am witnessing 100 yr oaks, southern magnolias and decades old crepe myrtles die from the drought. Many floribundas and modern roses had 100% leaf scorch despite daily watering. These roses have been troopers in the heat: perle d'or, marie pavie, mrs br cant, belinda's dream, souv de la malmaison, mutabilis, mme. joseph schwartz, nachitoches noisette, purple buttons, old gay hill china, pleasant hill cemetary (tea-nois) and manchester gaurdian angel (tea-nois)- all continued to bloom even during highs of 105* to 110*. All other chinas shut down and arethusa really seemed to suffer. Cinco de mayo, fourth of july and julia child took the heat better than the other moderns I grow. The canes on reve d'or were blackened, but survived.

Jeri, glad to be of service to my beloved roses!

Melissa, I mulch, mulch, mulch them. I truly think mulch makes a huge difference in my climate. I use anything I can get ahold of, mostly leaves. I also mulch heavily with compost (mostly purchased but I also have a compost bin). I try to protect them from the sun in the summer as well as I can. I use beach umbrellas, shadecloth, and trees. I do alot of spot protecting in the summer as I see roses looking stressed. I do water regularly with an automatic drip system (a necessity here), and also do spot watering.

sabalmatt, very interesting information on how your roses performed in similar heat. Sorry to hear about the trees dying! I've lost nachitoches noisette twice but maybe I should try again...no room though.

'Souvenir de la Malmaison' has a Tea rose parent, I think that is why it, among Bourbons does so well in a hot climate.

Luxrosa.

The rose that was most heat tolerant in my garden through the Texas record setting triple diget heat (up to 116) this summer is September Morn.
{{gwi:309870}}

This photo was taken the next day after the flowers had been in full sun and 103 degrees all day ...
{{gwi:309872}}

Photo of another bloom taken a few days ago ...
{{gwi:309874}}

The plant was purchased as a band from Rogue Valley Roses this spring and bloomed like this all summer. The blooms did not shrink to be small in size like most of the roses, and the petals did not fry to nothing on the first or second day after opening like the rest of them. On top of all this it is extremely fragrant! Frankly, I am amazed.

Does anyone else grow this rose?

It's lovely!

It is in the San JOse Heritage Rose Garden, I believe. It was a great favorite of the late Col. Mel Hulse, there. It's apparently made for hot weather -- NOT a rose for cool coastal zones like mine.

Jeri

Beautiful Roselee! I'm not surprised, though. September Morn requires heat to open that flower and prevent the heavy mildew it is highly prone to. I grew it way back when it was "resurrected" by "he who shall remain nameless", the San Jose nurseryman who sent out hundreds of them in the 90s. Great rose in hot weather and that fragrance! Very nice! Kim

Yes, the Chinas, Noisettes, and Bourbons were champs during our south Louisiana summer of weeks of 100 degrees-plus heat plus drought. Here's a link to my photo of the found Bourbon 'Maggie' after two weeks of blast furnace temps and exposure to full sun all day. I gave this bed a bit of water every other day. (And the only good thing I can say about the drought here is that the Bourbons have been remarkably free of BS in my no-spray garden.) You may want to investigate all of the found roses in these classes, they're tough 'uns.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:309867}}

Jasper, thanks for your detailed rose report. That is certainly helpful!

roselee, your September Morn is to die for, thanks for posting these wonderful pictures.

SpiderLily, your Maggie looks great despite the heat. Wouldn't have thought that this rose, actually bourbons in general, can take so much heat!!

Christina

Here is a link that might be useful: Organic Garden Dreams

Thank you from me too, jaspermplants. I'm always interested in which roses love or survive the long hot summers. Many of those that did well for you also did well for me except that all of mine stopped blooming for a month except for Sallie Holmes, who was not in full sun.

And thanks, Sabalmatt, for your report from my area. I have not yet tried perle d'or, nachitoches noisette, purple buttons, old gay hill china, pleasant hill cemetary (tea-nois) and manchester gaurdian angel, but now I'll keep them in mind.

Roselee, I think I've got to have September Morn now that I've seen her and Kim commented on her fragrance! I'm looking her up right now.

Spiderlily, your Maggie looks wonderful. Mine is new this year, but I have great expectations for her. Lou

I will have to look into September Morn, thanks for the info; she's beautiful. Like I have any more room...

Thanks for repeating sabalmatt's list, Lou. I missed reading that Purple Buttons continued right through the heat. That's wonderful to hear! Purple Buttons was my first seedling to go "commercial". I'd given it to Ralph Moore for evaluation. One evening, the phone rang and it was him asking "what do you want to do with it?" I told him I'd always loved it and he said he did, too. He said it was too good to lose and he would be honored to offer it for sale, so Sequoia introduced it to the world. It was quite thrilling the first time I walked through their greenhouses and found flats of Purple Buttons in four inch pots, blooming away! I'm glad you like it. Thank you! Kim

Jaspermplants and everyone who replied to this post, I too appreciate the reports on what roses are doing well for you in the heat. Some of them I don't have and will be checking out.

Spiderlily, in a recent news letter Antique Rose Emporium in San Antonio also had some good things to say about Maggie:

"It is good to take note of the plants as they bloom throughout the seasons. It is possible to have a colorful garden even with a record breaking summer heat. One of the stars to stand out in the crowd this summer was the found rose, Maggie.

"Maggie started a big burst of color in July and is still blooming through September. It has been a Texas tough rose this year. Full of fragrance and vibrant magenta color, this shrub grows 4 to 6 feet tall. It's a winner!"

After 102 temps yesterday September Morn is still holding up well. Slightly cooler temperatures in the mid 70s at night is helping. The petals dried around the edges a little quicker a month ago. This picture was taken this morning ...
{{gwi:309876}}

Lucky for us (we have enough other things to contend with! :-) mildrew is not a problem in my part of Texas although S. De La M. and Duchesse de Brabant might get a touch of it in the spring.

As Spiderlily mentioned in regards to not having a problem with B/S in this heat and drought I haven't had one black spotted leaf all summer, but I don't recall B/S being a problem when I grew September Morn several years ago.

About the heat: 103 to 105 temps are not unusual for Texas, but 110/112 temps day after day is an entirely different matter especially when combined with hot hard winds and our usual high 80s all night. It's taught us a lot about watering, mulch, shading when necessary and what plants we can depend on. My yard looked like a tent city for awhile there ... LOL I'll be watching garage sales for beach umbrellas to use if we have a repeat of last summer's heat.

But whatever, it's good to note what roses grow and bloom best and for me September Morn is the top contender for championship in that area. Plus it's beautiful, healthy and VERY fragrant to boot.

Roselee--Your pictures of September Morn are beautiful and I love the combination with the cobalt blue flowers---

Lovely pictures---

Florence

Does anyone here grow 'Mme Pierre Euler', the darker-colored sport parent of 'September Morn'?

I've often wondered why September Morn is more popular than it's sport parent 'Mme Pierre Euler'. There are only two pictures on HelpMeFind; both from the same person.

As you all probably know it's available as a custom root from Vintage. I asked to be notified if and when it becomes available. Since they are closing perhaps they won't be propagating it, but maybe if enough of us asked for it they would. Actually I'd like to have one in EVERY color ... LOL!

Florence, thanks for your comment. BTW, the purple/cobalt blue plant is Angelonia, "Summer Snapdragon". It's a great plant, comes in a lighter purple and white, and blooms all summer in the sun here.

Kim, how interesting. I didn't realize that Purple Buttons was yours. As a result of this information, I searched for more info on Purple Buttons and came up with a most interesting thread (Rose Pollen Pimping and Purple Buttons . . ) between you and Susan. Now I'm mulling over the fun you two have had with your rose seeds (and Lucretia). Maybe I'll try it too.

Hi Lou! Yes, Purple Buttons is mine. I'd imported Cardinal Hume from Harkness and found myself even more in love with it in person than the photos made me.

I'd known from very early in my growing roses, I wanted to raise new ones to see what was possible. I also knew I had to see where we'd been to determine if what I raised was "new" or different from what had been. You can't know where we should go until you know where we've been. I also figured before I put any real effort in creating seeds, I should learn how to raise them successfully. Why invest the time, effort and creativity in making them if you can't get them to grow?

I already had a source of seeds right outside, the roses in my garden. I figured the ones which set self hips easily should make good mothers, so I began raising seeds I collected from them. Why not? That's what "breeders" had done for eons until the latter part of the Nineteenth Century when some actually began hybridizing. Many OGRs are the result of self set seed someone either discovered had germinated in their gardens or nurseries, or deliberately raised. Very many of them were so similar to their seed parent, several old rose authors actually began typing them by what they strongly resembled. Many were dismissed as being inferior versions of their "mothers". Discovering that was a great lesson!

You have to be careful raising too many generations of self set seed. Too much inbreeding results in undesirable recessive traits becoming the rules rather than the exceptions. We see it in improperly bred dogs with their psychological, physical and medical issues. It's no different with any other living organism. When the background is too homogenized, bad things come very easily. Being able to research the breeding of a rose allows you to determine how closely related its parents were so you can decide if raising self set seed from it is desirable. Cardinal Hume has a widely diverse background, so seeing what it could produce by itself would give ideas of some of what was possible deliberately using it for breeding. Purple Buttons was one of the more exciting results.

By all means! Go grab some hips, pry out the seed and get them planted! You'll find a lot of information here on GW as well as over at the Rose Hybridizers Association site on the various methods used to successfully germinate them. Do yourself a favor first...remember Nature permits the hips to be eaten and the seed "eliminated" through the animals where they just come up by themselves. She also lets them fall off the plant, rot from weather and soil organisms and then spring to life when conditions are appropriate. Knowing that, how hard do you have to make raising roses from seed for it to work?

Some people take pleasure in making projects difficult and involved and that is fine. It leads to many discoveries and often advances knowledge. But, just because it CAN be made involved and more expensive doesn't mean it HAS to be. Keep it simple and you'll keep it fun. Isn't that a great part of our growing roses? Have fun! Kim

Roselee, I think the reason September Morn has become more popular than 'Mme Pierre Euler' is because it has been more readily available, longer so it has the "push" and promotion behind it. More of us have seen it, grown it and waxed poetically about it, so more know of it and have bought it. Currently, only Vintage is listed as a source for the Mme. here, and only as "Custom Root". Few are willing to pony up the price required and wait for the plant. Not disparaging Vintage in any way. I believe most of us are more into the "immediate gratification" aspects of our gardens. That is a huge reason why more don't know and grow the rose. Make it more easily, readily, immediately available; those who grow it, post more praise about it and I'm sure it will become as popular and "must have" as September Morn. Kim

Well Kim, as much as I'd love to have it I'll probably never set eyes on Mme Pierre Euler. I wouldn't mind the wait, but with shipping costs plus the fees it's a little rich for my blood ... sigh.

Hopefully, someone in the US will pick it up and offer it somewhere down the line to those of us in hot climates.

I'm just glad I stumbled on September Morn.

Well, watch it closely and notice anything which might be a sport. When it was broadly available budded years ago, the nurseryman who reintrduced it through his business found it reverting. You MIGHT luck up on a reverted cane and perhaps be able to propagate one for yourself. Kim

Now wouldn't that be nice! Whoo hoo! You all will be the first to hear IF it ever does!

You COULD try pollinating it with some of the other bullet proof roses in your garden and raise new ones of your own. Kim

I ordered a September Morn from Rogue last spring, but was told it was too small to ship. (Code, I suppose for ordering too late.) They're holding it for me until it gets bigger, which I suppose might be now. With winter coming on -- not that we get real winter here in southern California -- should I pot it up, or put it in the ground?
I was already in love with this rose, but from what everyone here is saying about it, I can't wait for its arrival.
Kay

Onederw, re what to do with winter coming on, and being a creature of immediate gratification myself, I'm doing both with my bands--potting them up in 1 or 2-gal pots, then "planting" them in holes at the exact places where I intend the rose to grow permanently, with the rim approximately even with the soil and ringed by straw or compost. I leave them this way for a month or so, then de-pot and plant them permanently in the hole. I followed this practice over spring and our awful scorching-drought summer and believe it kept the root systems cool and hydrated, encouraging root systems to develop faster. I also threw a bit of alfalfa, blood meal, bone meal in the hole before setting in the pot, my reasoning being that the roots would be attracted to those nutrients. I now have between 200 and 300 cultivars I established this way. The only thing you have to be careful of is to monitor whether the soil is friable enough for water to drain off properly at the bottom of the hole--just lift the pot out and check. I plan to put in several dozen more bands this way over fall and winter here, which is prime planting time in south Louisiana anyway--though I will probably leave them in the pots longer. It's all a grand experiment!

Spiderlily, I love your statement, "it's all a grand experiment"! We need more experimentation. It leads to discovery and increased knowledge. Thank you!

Roselee, if our climates are similar enough, what I have always done is start bare roots in five gallon cans until they have the root system under them to plant where I want them. For small pots, they go into the appropriate size can and are upsized when needed until they are mature enough to hold their own in the open ground. The warmer soil in the pots and the greater attention they tend to receive while potted stimulate them to mature faster and safer than when fending for themselves out in the open with the potential rabbits, gophers, squirrels, "hose pruning", etc.

You can easily practice "pushing" with the immature plant, too. Pinch off the flower buds as they begin to form to push the plant into faster growth. Unless you're concerned with hard freezes. Fortunately, that isn't something I have to be concerned with here. Kim

Kim, this paragraph was taken from your post on Fri Sep 30 11

Some people take pleasure in making projects difficult and involved and that is fine. It leads to many discoveries and often advances knowledge. But, just because it CAN be made involved and more expensive doesn't mean it HAS to be. Keep it simple and you'll keep it fun. Isn't that a great part of our growing roses? Have fun! Kim

My question to it is, does this mean not to go outside the square in thinking of 'breeding, Regards David Mears.

Hi David, absolutely not! While you might raise something appealing to you from doing the "same old, same old", no real improvements are really to be discovered. That line of effort has been over mined for over a century. Improvements in hardiness, disease resistance, quantity of flowers, different shapes, colors, etc., come from thinking and working outside the box, forgetting "the nine dots". If your goal was to create the next catalog entry for a glossy publication, playing safe is what you must do. Anything else requires decades (often) for improved, commercial results. But, if your desire is to IMPROVE what there is to grow and play with, going where none (or few) have gone before is the only way to go. It's also one of the best ways to answer the "what if?". While I agree it's fun to raise a seedling which seems worthy to have growing in gardens, it's even more fun to raise one which contains roses not previously involved in creating the ones you usually encounter.

My comment was to assure those who may not have considered raising seedlings or even deliberately creating them, that it doesn't HAVE to be as expensive, involved, scientific or labor intensive as some have made it. I don't care how difficult someone wants to make it, that's their choice and if it pleases them, fine! My only point was, YOU don't HAVE to, and you can still raise new roses and even create good ones.

I don't know about you, but the more like "work" something becomes, the less I want to do it. Kim

A big YES to your final comment about "work", Kim. A blacksmith friend of mine memorably defined art as the divine and human at play. I like to think of gardening in the same way. Sorry to go off topic but I couldn't resist sharing that--Janice aka SpiderLily7

I am wondering if those of you who grow roses in hot climates also experience cold winters. In my garden, the roses not only have to survive and perform in high temps, they also have to overwinter where the night temps are consistently below freezing... between 20F to 10F.

The major problem in this climate is that the temps in spring can go from cold/cool to hot within days. The opposite is true in the fall. This week we had temps in the 90s, by tomorrow the temps will be down to the sixties. I have a theory that the quick change in temps creates stress for the plants.

Do any of you have this kind of climate change and what roses do your recommend ?

Smiles,
Lyn

Roseblush1, when I was growing roses on a mountaintop in western North Carolina at 3300-foot elevation, our effective growing zone was Z3 because of extreme wind chill, yet winters often had sudden mild spells. I found that Kordes-bred roses, along with the Canadians, performed extremely well.

Kim, thanks for the encouragement. My roses are now beginning their fall flush. After that, I'll be looking at which of my roses have hips, something that I've ignored before - maybe because some are orange and I hate the color orange. But you make it so much fun that I've got to try it for myself. Just for the fun of it and the knowledge. So in the meantime, I'll start researching the parentage of the roses now in my garden. Maybe next year I'll have something fun to report. Hearing you get excited about the process is like a welcome rain after a long, hot summer. I'm excited all over again about growing roses.

How lovely, Lou! Thank you! I'm honored. It IS fun! Not just seeing your efforts rewarded by the successes, but in getting to name them. Nothing compares to showing a cherished friend or family member a new flower and asking what they think of it, then asking if you can name it for them. Those tears are wonderful!

Coming up with the names is great fun, too. I grew a seedling Ralph Moore shared with me on my balcony. There was a devastating fire and the balcony and all on it were melted, and turned to ash. Six weeks after the fire and a good rain, a green shoot sprang from one of the piles of dirt where my balcony was. I collected it and the danged thing grew! Not knowing what it was, I called it "Phoenix" as it literally rose from the ashes. Once Mr. Moore identified it, I assured him though he may never create the most disease resistant or perfect rose, if he ever had someone request a rose which could live on an active volcano, THIS was it! He got a great laugh out of that one.

Another looked very much like an Austin rose, but was pure HT breeding. As the country music program of the same name was also a favorite, I called it "Austin City Limits" as it really did encroach on Mr. Austin's "look". Another also resembled one of his roses, only in an oleander pink, hence "O'Leander". Very pun-nish, I know, but fun and hearty laughs when shared with garden visitors. Another was a cross of Frances Ashton and Mrs. Oakley Fisher, so I called it Frances Fisher. The actress of the same name was a client of mine when I worked at the beach. It was great fun directing her to the rose's entry on HMF. She thought it a hoot discovering a rose was "named for me!" You're going to have a ball! Kim

All of my roses are still quite young. Duchesse de Grammont, Jeri Jennings, Nuits de Young, and Autumn Damask arrived last year in the fall. Mme. Issac Pereire joined them at the beginning of spring. All of them then needed to be moved at the end of spring to a new house. Nonetheless, they seems to be doing fairly well with the exception of Nuits de Young.
DdG put out two long new canes and has bloomed in flushes throughout the spring and summer through now. Mme. Issac Pereire bloomed, was interrupted by being moved, and then continued mid-summer for one flush. However, the blooms in July were beginning to dry and wilt by the end of the same day that they opened. After that, it went into cane production. Jeri Jennings arrived as a band, but has done well (purchased originally for, and again later moved to, a shady wall).
Autumn Damask grew so vigorously that it caused some issue for moving it and the plant got stressed, but has recovered and continued. It has not yet shown signs of blooms or buds though.
Nuits de Young is the one that doesn't seem to like it here.
It did have one bloom this spring, but has grown little if at all and has never really seemed to be happy.
I've recently added R. hirtula and R. henryi, both of which seem to be doing well so far.

Oh, meant to indicate that I'm located in Vegas, with the above roses.

Is it too late to follow up with some questions on this thread? I live in Phoenix, and I was wondering: how big do the following roses get in a climate like mine?

• Romaggi Plot Bourgon
• Souvenir de la Malmaison
• Mme Abel Chatenay
• Mme Isaac Pereire
• Mme Joseph Schwartz
• Duchesse de Brabant

Also, now that y'all have been growing some of these for 11 years (or more!), do you find any of these to be particularly fragrant and floriferous? I'd like to create a multi-rose hedge under a Palo Verde in my front yard, so I'd like it to be pretty and fragrant. :)

(Adding debbym, Tempe, AZ Zone 9bcs she lives in my area, and I'm *really* hoping she'll chime in too. :))

Thank you!

Romaggi Plot Bourbon is one of the shorter Bourbons, around three feet tall according to helpmefindroses, and it was small in my garden. Souvenir de la Malmaison for me was about 5 x 5 feet at maturity. Duchesse de Brabant and her sport, Mme. Joseph Schwartz were around 4 x 3, although one DdB grown against a wall with afternoon shade wanted to be a climber. My area is not as hot as yours so this may not be very helpful for you. Mme. Isaac Pereire from what I've seen in photos is a larger rose, but there again I imagine it would depend on climate. My best advice is to try growing a few that appeal to you and see what happens. In your area I'd definitely advise growing these roses in afternoon shade, though.

Mme. Joseph Schwartz in my garden

Souvenir de la Malmaison

These photos were taken about five years ago, before climate change was as much of a factor as it is now.

ingrid_vc - do you have any favorite OGRs? I must say, based on your picture, SDLM looks pretty spectacular. 🤩

debbym, Tempe, AZ Zone 9 - Yeah, I'm not worried about summer blooming either at this point; I really just want to enjoy them as much of the rest of the year as possible!

I think for my "hedge" out front (which will be planted underneath a Palo Verde), I'm going to start with a white rose (still TBD). as well as Mme Joseph Schwartz, SDLM and Duchesse de Brabant. TY ingrid_vcfor helping with size guidance!

Hopefully I'll get lots of fragrance and blooms!

Those are some great choices! I have Pope John Paul and love it! It is a great rose. Good luck and enjoy; nothing more beautiful than roses!