No, I've never seen it before. It is a single though. Maybe it's that it is not a deep red or what I would call a true red, but is a very light reddish. I hate ordering roses I've never seen! It's so frustrating! And I've discovered that a lot of times the blooms are a lot smaller than they appear in photos- I want to know about it before I order the rose if the blooms are really small (like Dame de Coeur). Roses are not a big item around here. You do not see big displays of roses. I called one local nursery and they told me they didn't have any roses this time of year! This is the best time to plant here- easier for the plant to settle in, cooler, so less worry about watering.
Yes, I've heard of Illusion, but it seems to only be available from Vintage- not from anyone closer to me. I don't want to order just one rose from them. Brandy

I think, when you ask what roses would be good no-spray, it would be helpful if you would say what diseases are problems in your area.
We don't have a problem with blackspot here, for instance.
But we ARE troubled by powdery mildew and rust, and occasionally anthracnose or cercospora.

So a "disease-free" rose for me is one that is not troubled by those diseases.
It might well blackspot like mad, where that disease is a problem.

Jeri

First blooms aren't really indicative of what the mature blooms will be like. Weather also affects them.

My dramatic reds are Dame de Coeur and Francis Dubreuil, and both seem to do well in Atlanta with minimal (or an acceptable amount of) BS and no spray. I recall seeing Dame de Coeur for the first time at the Atlanta Botanical Garden several years ago. The fragrance and beauty of the bloom were so appealing that I crawled under the plant to see the name on the label. Quite a site, I'm sure.

Jeri- blackspot is the main problem here. I am not sure yet about mildew. I know when I lived right on the coast (about 20 yrs ago) that both bs and mildew were big problems (decimated all the roses I bought and I never bought any more roses until last yr). I don't know anything about the other diseases you mentioned.
Thank you, Annie. Maybe they'll be more satisfactory as they grow.
Chattahoochie- you were probably not the first! Thanks for sharing that story.
I don't think I'm excessively impatient, I don't mind waiting for the plant to mature some, but I don't like the uncertainty of waiting for a plant when I don't know what to expect (because I haven't seen it as a mature rose). I did see Playboy and Folklore and was impressed w/ both of them, so I got them. As for orange, the pics of Morden Sunrise look really great...
I just looked up Erotika- very beautiful. So, I guess that is two roses I would need to order from Vintage.
I have 3 roses in front- rugosa Alba and Robusta, and HT 4th of July. Only Robusta has had bs this yr, and 4th of July has the worst spot of them- behind them where it must get more shade. I'm dissatisfied w/ Robusta- from being graceful and arching, it now seems gangling and mostly has bare canes below. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about that but I've read that rugosas can be pruned heavily. The alba is disappointing to me because it is a once bloomer. Also as a plant, the shape is not much to look at. The rugosas are the oldest roses I have- were bands in '06. So, I'm really a newbie. Sorry to run on! Brandy

I think Illusion is also available from Pickering.
Olga

If you can provide support-- Dortmund, Altissimo, or Dublin Bay are all very showy. Dortmund has healthy, glossy foliage-- Altissimo has the largest bloom (a single)--also it's a vertical grower, doesn't get too wide. I've seen Dublin Bay in a number of public gardens-- always looked good. I love your idea of having a lot of red roses in your garden, go for it!

I appreciate all the great feedback! I am hoping to order from a local company, but if not I might order from Pickering- it would be a different selection of roses.
I actually have Altissimo in a pot. I ordered it at the beginning of the summer intending to put it in my new garden, however I was advised that its vertical habit would not work well on a trellis. I have a spot in mind for it but have not had time to prepare the spot yet, so poor Altissimo is still in a pot. I do like its bloom. (I actually got 3 of them- a 3 for the price of 1 sale and gave them away as they sprouted leaves, I kept the last one to show signs of life. It is lopsided- only a cane on one side, but I hope it will eventually sprout canes from the other side and even out.) Brandy

I like reds too. Though I spray there are roses that are healthier than others. Here are some reds I like which don't seem particularly bs prone:

Red Eden - mine's in a big pot but has pumped out the blooms this summer. They're very lovely, a rich beautiful red, and very long lasting. Very healthy plant. Not too stiff for a trellis.

Louis XIV - I still don't know how to capture the dark velvety reds in pictures - this one has a similar color to Francis D but blooms much more for me. Mine is in a pot but has been one of my best bloomers this year in the heat and drought. Lovely garnety color and a little fragrance.

Oklahoma...hard to beat for the beautiful, large blooms and breathtaking fragrance. Not a bs magnet. Mine's in shade and still blooms.

LD Braithwaite...a bright true red, very good bloomer.

Traviata...same as above but a little darker and a much taller plant...very stiff. BS resistant here.

I'm also trying Fields of the Woods and DAme de Coeur.

Oh, Lavaglut is a fantastic plant and a dramatic, rich, glowing color. Individual blooms are small but they occur in great numbers and last a very long time.

Martha Gonzales is a good short plant with med. small single blooms. It pumps them out and they're very bright and cheery. CAn't see how Home Run can have anything on Martha.

Happy hunt for great reds. Oh yeah, General Jacqueminot is a lovely red hp with an intense fragrance. Gets some bs though.
Linda

I don't spray, and though these reds will get some BS they will bounce back and keep blooming:
Oklahoma (darkest, most dramatic)
Cl. Etoile de Hollande or Cl. Crimson Glory -- two very fragrant climbers. I think Etoile has slightly stronger fragrance though CG is close behind and has better flower form. I find Etoile to be easier to grow and more robust, while CG has been wimpy for me. Fields of the Woods is new to me so can't compare it yet.
William Shakespeare 2000 -- looks like dark pink in hot weather but still is very dramatic/beautiful due to all the petals and great fragrance.
Prospero -- very short Austin for small bed/front of the border but a very healthy one and good repeat bloom.
Lover's Delite - possibly same rose as Fisherman's Friend.
Souvenir du Dr. Jamain -- very dark and dramatic, but repeat bloom is not good in my garden.

I have a couple I could nominate as being showstoppers. One of them is Lavaglut and has been mentioned already. The other is an older Kordes floribunda called Lilli Marlene (sp?). It is a really pretty, in-your-face red. It blooms a lot and cycles frequently. It also doesn't get over about knee-high and makes a tidy bush. It does need spraying, but it responds very well to Messenger. I recently missed a week on my spray schedule, and while many other plants went down the porcelain facility with the blackspot, this one did not because I had been using the Messenger. If I were going to line a walkway with a red floribunda, this one would get a lot of consideration.

Papa Meilland is a favorite for me, but my best red without any attention is Traviata. I love Francis but I have to keep him away from sunlight. You have some good ones: Fields of the Wood, Dame De Couer and what is more elegant than Deep Secret. I am not a big fan of Black Bacara. It is black but when it is crisp and it sits sulking about whether or not it wants to bloom. That big mophead of a bud is as large as the bloom. Not a big fan of BB. I love Chrysler Imperial and Mr. Lincoln but Mr. Lincoln is somewhat of a diva, and not worth the effort, JMHO on ML and BB.

Well, if you are relatively new to roses you should, IMHO, try to get at least a few grafted roses so you could see some sizable plant and more flowers in the first two years.

Lot of the roses mentioned above, e.g. Illusion, Folklore, Cl. Etoile de Hollande and some others are available from Pickering - from less than the bands you would pay for; or, from Palatine about for the price you pay for a gallon potted rose. So do yourself the favor and at least look at the website catalog of Palatine and Pickering to get familiar with all they have to offer.

Erotika is available grafted from Hortico - but in this case I would not encourage you to get it. They sent me a very puny plant that still gets dieback and not much taller than second year bands are (that too are still immature).

Thank you, everyone. I have seen pics of Red Eden and I thought it was beautiful. I am glad there are so many choices- probably take me a few years to try them all out!
Ceterum- Believe it or not, it is CHEAPER to order roses from Canada than from the next county over!!! I did look at Pickering after all you all have said about it and after working out the shipping, it's acually cheaper! Of course, I prefer green plants rather than bareroot ( a bit of distrust on my part), but given the price difference, hmmm, it's tempting. I think I will check out Palatine.
Thanks to everyone, Brandy (I will post the list of what I order so everyone can see.)

Brandy, I know that it is cheaper, that is why I suggested to you to check out these vendors. Most of my roses came from Canada in the last 4-5 years. I order own roots from all over of the US but I order those and only those that I cannot get from Palatine or Pickering.

No need to worry about bare roots. Really not. If you get quality bare roots in no time you will see green foliage and very soon you will see flowers, too. In our zone the best time to plant is in mid or late February, so ask for delivery in February 2008.

As to Red Eden, it is a very frustrating rose in coastal NC. It has very healthy foliage but the blooms never open, they always ball. They did ball even in the heat of July and August. I will give away mine: 3 years of waiting to see an open bloom (but I have never seen one opened) is just too much.

Thanks for the reinforcement, ceterum. I plan to have them send whatever I order right away if possible. To me, this is an excellent time to plant. Thanks also for letting me know about Red Eden. BTW, did you have japanese beetles this summer? I saw very few but I suspect they'll be around in full force next summer. I've seen quite a few grubs as I've been digging. Thinking about trying Milky Spore... Brandy

Well, I placed my order w/ Pickering. I ordered Alec's Red, Chrysler Imperial, Illusion, Raven, Royal William and Westerland. (What can I say??? I like red! and orange- but they were out of Oriana.) Most of these are also fragrant!!! The only thing I'm concerned about is whether they will get too cold on the journey- it seems that Pickering does not ship again until Nov. I want to have them in the ground so they can get settled in over the winter. Anyone have any experience w/ winter shipping? Brandy

i have kuroshinju which is pretty darn dramatic. It's new though.

It is better in bud than in bloom, which can get a bit messy.

But it is a deep, dark red. Lovely.

I have a small band that has been pumping out blooms all summer.

Good for you and I hope you will like their plants.

The Canadians cannot send you plants earlier because those plants are most probably still in the ground and they just start harvesting them in October.

Furthermore, it would not be good for you to plant bare roots so early. The only danger with bare roots in our climate is that if November, December and January are mild or very warm (like in the last two years) the roses come out of dormancy as soon as they hit the ground, start growing and then the beautiful new growth can be killed in a deep freeze in February, February being usually the coldest month here. This happened to me twice, in 2006 and 2007 (and I didn't request November shipping but delivery in December, after the customary Thanksgiving freeze), so I requested now shipping in February 2008. The unpredictable winter is probably the reason why Pickering offers a very generous warranty for roses planted in late winter-early spring (4-5 months! warranty up to the next freeze in the fall) but they do not guarantee winter survival.

However, you ordered hardy roses so hopefully nothing happens to those. But if the roses leaf and branch out before a hard freeze hits us, be prepared to cover those plants in very cool nights. I usually put a big pot lined with newspaper over them on those killing nights. I over wintered this way even the very tender Marechal Niel without any dieback or freeze damage but I diligently covered the plant when the forecast indicated below 30F in nights. Last winter after the February deep freeze I lost two wonderful plants from Pickering that were in full growth in January; but they were in pots and I forgot to protect them.

I understand why you wanted to get them as early as you can, and I agree with you, I too prefer planting trees shrubs, perennials in fall or early winter. Nonetheless because of our whimsical winters lately I became more careful with roses. I just wanted to give you a bit of warning to protect them if nature again produces warm early winter and deep freezes later on. And that was the reason why I suggested asking February delivery.

I guess I am too late to vote but I grow Linda Thompson, a hybrid rugosa, at the Jersey shore and she is a great red. She has very little BS but no fragrance. She blooms more and more each year. I highly recommend her since she is such a lipstick red.

I forgot to mention... According to Pickering there is no problem with November and early December ground shipping. February is a different issue. If the weather is extremely cold up there they call you and offer the option to postpone shipping for a week or so or they send the roses by air. I did opt for air shipping once or twice.

I think Palatine has the same policy re shipping but I didn't need to switch to air with them.

{{gwi:267608}}

That is really a beautiful rose, emily. thanks for sharing it.
Carol- I've heard Linda Campbell mentioned before but I heard conflicting reports as far as bs. Also, I'm not satisfied w/ the 2 rugosas I have- Robusta and Alba, which makes me feel cautious about another rugosa, especially a hybrid because I have read they are more likely to have bs than the non-hybrids.
Ceterum- thanks for the information. I think I will leave the ship date as Nov. I'll get their holes ready before and be ready to plant them as soon as I follow Pickering's care directions.
I may have goofed in ordering Alecs Red- I was thinking of Griffs Red- and I don't know anything about A.R., especially how disease resistant it is. Anyone know anything about that? Maybe I should substitute Gallivarda- gorgeous red w/ cream reverse- but I don't know anything about its disease resistance either. Brandy

No, you didn't goof with Alec's Red. Wonderfully fragrant rose with many, many petals, lasts both on the bush and in the vase quite long. In terms of blackspot it is not a bad at all. I think I read that Cocker worked on disease resistance when most breeders were not that much interested in this aspect of breeding. In any case, maybe my recollection is not correct but Alec's red is a fine rose; I grow it.

Brandy, seeing how quick you want your roses in the ground, please, please when you get them throw them into a huge bucket of water and leave them there to re-hydrate the roots for 24 hours. Then plant them.

Ceterum- thanks for the feedback. I plan to follow the directions from Pickering as to care. I could order 1 more rose w/o an increase in s&h- any suggestions? I was thinking about a red rose w/ yellow or white reverse on the petals-
Gallivarda? Perfect Moment? Or maybe an orange? Tambourine? Any suggestion from anyone? Brandy

Do not expect any recommendation from me on glowing orange colored roses because I would not have any.:-)

On more reds, yes, but I do not know anything about Gallivardia; I see that it had a very low ARS rating (4.9) that in itself means nothing but for ordering it I would want feedback from those that growing it in similar zones to mine.

As to reds, Liebeszauber usually gets good ratings from growers on the east coast. I would consider Precious platinum if someone who grows it on the east coast affirms it to be good.

Granada is very colorful and fragrant - I have to check if mine is alive after this awful drought. I forgot that I had this rose (mine is own root so it must be still small). Do not order Asso di Cuori - that rose didn't like my climate at all; produced a few gorgeous blooms in early spring and late fall but it is not a rose for the south and kept getting canker so I wanted to SP it by fall. Well, no need for that because it dies while we were away.

I hope others chime in - I truly would hate to take all the responsibility for your order.

But, ceterum, you're such a class A enabler! At the rate you're enabling me, maybe I better lock up my checkbook before I put together a whole new order! Seriously, I very much appreciate your feedback as it seems our weather conditions are considerably alike.
The way I am arranging my garden is red and 2 or 3 cream colored roses on one side, plus a yellow, then Folklore in the center w/ a sitting area, and oranges on the other side. In the back of the garden are my climbers- red and cream. Hopefully there will be good contrast. Brandy

Ceterum,
I hope you don't mind me expanding your thread to ask, Are there any no-spray red Hybrid Perpetual roses that are suitable for coastal gardens?

Lux.

Lux- feel free, expand away. Brandy

Lux, I doubt that any would be no spray here on the humid east coast. But, as far as I know there are quite a few that do very well in California. You live in CA, aren't you?

Brandy, if you are still looking for a red/yellow blend, you might want to check out Gypsy Carnival. Don't know a lot about it yet, but it's beautiful and I'm considering it for my spring order.

There's a post on the Rose Gallery with pics of it, and I have a query about it on the Rose Forum. We'll have to see what more info. surfaces about it.

It's really beautiful.

Kate

Thank you, Kate. I looked it up on HMF and it is really striking. It's colored like Gallivarda (which I asked about but I don't think anyone had it- no replies anyway). I wish I knew more about the two of them, or Perfect Moment, or a similar colored rose. I think a red and yellow would look good w/ my reds. Brandy

ok - eroika & deep secret both look interesting, but what would a relatively local (i.e.-east coast) source be?

Geo= I just looked at HMF, the only U.S. sources for Erotika are Vintage (Ca.) and The Applachian Rose in Tn.
I ordered Deep Secret from Heirloom (Or.) According to HMF, the only other U.S. source is Sequoia (Ca). Brandy

thanks, brandy!

Re: Illusion - looks like THE rose I'll DEFINITELY consider in the future:

1. Olga recommends?
2. Longwood Gardens recommends - so as I am in the middle
(of 1 & 2), climatically speaking, sounds good
3. Strong (dog rose?) fragrance
4. Reportedly - JAPANESE BEETLES LEAVE THIS ONE ALONE???

Will be getting Deep Secret in the spring, so am looking forward to that; couldn't find Eroica anywhere; will also be trying Traviata (have heard fragrance there ranges from nonexistent to strong).

George

Gypsy Carnival is a beauty but it does blackspot but does not seem to bother mine, as it just keeps blooming. NO spray all summer long secondary to drought but it kept on blooming if I remembered to water.

I have a couple of reds in my garden.

Taboo is one of the cleanest and the many petaled, deep red/almost black blooms are outstanding as is the fragrance. I did find this rose to be very slow to start, but then that may have been my fault since I moved it 4 times the first year (and almost lost it). Now it is looking quite wonderful.

Lavaglut does seem to blackspot in my garden when not sprayed at all. However, even if it isn't sprayed regularly, it seems good against BS. The flowers are small, dark red and abundant. It stands out in a crowd.

Showbiz is absolutely wonderful, but it does black spot, though quite strong when kept sprayed. The blooms are a BRIGHT, eye shocking fire engine red. It's a good thing this rose is small in stature. Any bigger and it would be overwhelming. Though it's small, people can spot this rose from 250 feet away.

Thank you Geo, Patricia, and Julie.
Dusky Maiden has had a few more blooms since I first posted this thread, and her blooms are very deep red and small. Much more satisfactory than the earlier blooms.
HomeRun currently has a couple blooms on him. Small but bright. I will have to see how he fills out, might want to get a couple more for that spot.
My Illusion is due to arrive next wk (along w/ the others from Pickering). I am looking forward to seeing them! Brandy

I second the nomination for Lili Marlene. Floribunda rose, quick rebloom. It is fairly small/compact, mine is still in a pot, and the bloom is a beautiful red. A lot of the pictures I've seen online show the colour as more of a cherry red, but mine bloomed a deeper red than that. It took me by surprise, and it is quite beautiful.

Too bad it would limit your choices significantly, but fortuniana grafted roses would be a great way to get some real big reds- especially if you have sandy soil.

Accept advice from those of us living here in California with great caution. We don't have the summer humidity you face. While we do have diseases, our blackspot pressure is much less than yours. Many years I only spray once or twice at pruning time, and my garden is usually pretty healthy. In part this is because I remove any roses that need much more than this kind of treatment. Having said all this, I'll throw out my random bits and pieces. You can take them for what they are worth.

When you say 'dramatic red', I'm not sure what you mean. Scarlet reds can be dramatic, and so can crimsons, and so can dark purply reds, and so can brilliant cherry reds,but putting them in a bed together without other colors to tone them down can be a disaster. Ask me how I know.

Dame de Coeur and Alec's Red are both unusually healthy roses in my experience, but are a light, bright red, not a deep dramatic color. The healthiest fragrant dark red HT I have any experience with is Oklahoma. Also fitting that description is the HT Barcelona, but it is usually sold as the tea rose Francis Dubreuil. You can get that dramatic deep color from some of the HPs, but I can't imagine growing HPs unsprayed in North Carolina. I've had good luck with Austins Prospero, The Prince, and am now planting Tradescant, but these would probably need spray for you to grow them.

The most dramatic healthy red climber I've ever seen was a mature Cl Etoile de Hollande. The most dramatic healthy red rambler I've ever seen was Chevy Chase. Both are stunning. Dortmund is healthy too, no scent and a brilliant cherry red. It is indeed dramatic, but would clash with most of these other reds.

Now here's a trick. If you really, really, really want intense drama do this. Try out several different roses to see which you like best, and which is healthiest in your neck of the woods. Then do a mass planting of only one kind of rose. This is incredibly hard to do, and hardly anyone can force himself to do it, but nothing gives more impact than this.

Rosefolly

Thank you, rosefolly. Yes, I have been warned about climate differences.
I think I prefer the dark reds- such as Taboo and Crimson Glory. I have actually seen both of these and I love the color and the scent. I have a bloom from CG that ceterum gave me and wow, what a scent!
My plan is to alternate reds w/ a few pastels, then have oranges on the other side of the garden. For instance, at the back of the bed is Reve d'or, Red Cascade, Fields of the Wood, and Ginger Syllabub. These are all babies. Lisa at Countryside was kind enough to give me feedback on this arrangement.
I would like to have a striped rose, but haven't heard of any that would work no spray. Maybe in the future... Brandy

Geo, I encourage you to get Erotika (Erotica) from Appalachian rose nursery as opposed to Hortico. The owner of Appalachian rose is very conscious of selling only RMV free roses, he either get them tested or bought clean budwood from UC Davis. He sells 1-gallon plants.

Thank you, Ceterum; I've emailed Appalchian on the matter & received a reply. Will probably drive there @ some point in the near future to get Eroica (as I have relatives nearby), and then order Illusion from Vintage Gardens (how are they?).

Now I guess I need to see how I can fit them in? Must be space, somewhere.......

Pickering also have Illusion and in case of climbers I prefer grafted plants if they are available. I do not like to wait many years till a band matures. But, as far as bands go I got very nice ones from Vintage though none of them were climbers.

I just rec'd my roses from Pickering this wk. Illusion was one of them. All of them are about 3 ft tall and look to be in good condition. I expect to plant them tomorrow (if it doesn't pour rain all day- though we certainly need the rain). I don't know where you are geo, but Pickering's prices and even the shipping are very reasonable. Good luck! Brandy

thanks, Brandy!

Checked Pickering's site, and the price for Illusion (own-root?) was reasonable ($11.50-is that U.S. or Canadian$). What would the taxes, shipping, inspection certificate cost?

But, unfortunately, they have a 3 rose minimum order & at this point I'm not there (as I'm presently topping off on my 39 rose order from various places for the spring). Am thinking about one more spot out front (move the souvenir de la malmaison rouge (or whatever its more appropriate name) to the side of the carport (as if more sheltered it might be less likely to ball?), to make room for erotica?).

Maybe Illusion (somewhere) in the back (but where?) from Vintage Gardens?

And to think this all started with just wanting to get a few rugosas for rose hips.

Pickering most probably offers Illusion grafted on multiflora, if own root is not mentioned separately.
No Tax, no inspection fee only shipping. There is a price list for shipment of 3-7 roses; there is a Canadian and a price for US - US shipping cost contains all paperwork included.

Ah, Geo, you have discovered the downside of rosemania! I had two when people on this website started enabling me, now I have about 20! And that was all this yr! Plus, I have about 10 clematis, too. Oh well, each bed you put in means less to mow :) Good luck w/ whatever you choose. Brandy