Dont you think that the problem with the Bourbons as a class is that they are so diverse-you cant really say exactly what a Bourbon is when you compare SDLM and her close relations with either Mme Pierre Oger or say Prince Napoleon. Boule de Neige seems more like a Portland and Coquette des Blanches is different again. I think your description is very accurate. I like them in general but they really need to be sprayed to do their best here..except a few. Mme Issac Periere is great in the spring but I usually expect most of my Bourbons to shine in late summer after they put on a new coat of leaves and rebloom. My once bloomers overshadow them in the spring. If they are not watered I would not expect much rebloom...still they are tough and cold hardy fragrant and make good cut flowers. That is as good a reason to grow them as I can think of.

patricia

ZD - no thorns, fabulous smell, great foliage.....lovely. yep, mildew but even complete defoliation fails to disturb her equilibrium - oh, and she is a doddle to prune and shape. What's not to like?

Your list of attributes looks pretty good to me. Sumptuous bloom form and great fragrance are the biggies for me.

I think Bourbons would be great for you if blackspot isn't a problem for you. It's their only fault in my garden. I have slightly alkaline clay soil. The long caned varieties seem to thrive in zones 6 and 7 where they don't get knocked down by winter, yet get some chill. I have Zephrine Drouhin, MIP, Louise Odier, Deuil de Dr. Reynaud, and Mme Pierre Oger...all very vigorous.

Deuil de Dr. Reynaud
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Eric

The short-caned or dwarf tea-bourbons (basically the SDLM clan) are so different as cultural subjects from the long-caned bourbons that the common class name seems quite misleading. The tea-bourbons are somewhat resistant to spot diseases but susceptible to mildew. They do well here with spray for blackspot but usually suffer significant winter damage at around 5 F. They are commonly grown no-spray in Texas and the Deep South where they enjoy the heat and get much bigger than here. The LCB are highly susceptible to blackspot, rust, or mildew just about everywhere in North America except the inland desert. Secondhand, Louise Odier has been mentioned as unusually hardy and can be grown in parts of USDA zone 5. Zepherine Drouhin and MIP were fully hardy here in zone 6b.

The dwarf tea-bourbons are busy repeat bloomers, the LCB not so much.

I know so little about keeping roses alive but do know this: bourbons do well in my Florida zone 9-10.
Souvenir de la Malmaison, Deuil de Dr. Reynaud and Climbing Souvenir dlM are still alive and flourishing while many others have perished this past summer.

They take a beating and keep on ticking. LOVE their heady fragrance, rebloomability and voluptuous petals. Love that they survived and are actually flourishing. Gonna have to buy some more. I don't spray except some very very occasional dilute Miracle Gro.

WHAT MAKES A BOURBON? I don't think anyone knows, & it's my belief that there's more confusion and mystery surrounding Bourbons than any other class.

WHERE DO THEY DO WELL? It depends on which Bourbons you wish to grow. If I were suddenly to decide that I must have a no-spray garden, I would focus first on Bourbons (primarily SdlM and her sports, but also a few other 'compact' members of the class). There are other Bourbons, however, that would be among the first to be banished.

I love Bourbons well at least the repeat Bourbons.
I have Souvenir de la Malmaison, Kronprincessin Vintoria, Capt Dyel de Graville, Romagi Plot and Catherine Guillot.
This is Madame de Sevigne from Long Island Rose (george's Garden)
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Capt Dyel de Graville a sport of Souvenir de la Malmaison
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Kronprincessin Viktoria probably the best performer of all my Bourbons it's supposed to stay comopact but has reach 6 ft on it own roots and even now when evrything else is dying down has 9 blooms on it (it is susceptible to powdery mildew)
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It has been sporting for 3-4 years now the sport resmbles SDLM
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Catherine Guillot I'm perplexed by this rose as it's supposed to have a good rebloom but I only get a sporadic repeat very fragrant .
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Lastly the top of the crop Souvenir de la Malmaison somtimes I thinky your not so special then it catches me off guard and I give in oh yes you are.
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Here is a link that might be useful: Paul Barden on Bourbons

SdlM is my only Bourbon. I was pleasantly surprised last year when I moved her from a pot and planted her in an unprotected spot in my garden. You'll made me think she was a sickly little thing. She has thrived and produces many flushes throughout the season. About 4x4 now. No winter die back! She gets sprayed about every 3 weeks.

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They don't like humidity, but that's not a problem for you. I've given up on them here. I still have a few, but blackspot eats them alive. They did very well for me in Santa Fe, NM. My definition: If it smells divine, looks as lush as chocolate decadence and gets blackspot, it's a bourbon.

SDLM is supposed to do fairly well here in Central Florida inspite of our humidity. I don't know why. I have two young plants, and I'm hoping for the best. I know her well enough to know she didn't get her name for no reason, and if she gets some BS, I'll just have to pull out my vinegar water bottle. I'm hoping I won't have to yank them. She's so beautiful.

I had Maggie for a season. I like your definition, catsrose. It fits.

Sherry

My definition is simple: They have long canes, blooms delightfully scented of Old Rose, with very full form, few glandular parts, and, with the exception of the Tea Bourbons, which are tolerable, they are pitiful martyrs to blackspot and rust. Often the foliage leans more toward their China heritage in shape with pointed tips to the leaflets, in comparison to their siblings, the Hybrid Perpetuals, whose foliage leans more toward the Old Europeans in shape - - although this is not a hard and fast rule. Often the foliage is thinner than that I associate with HP's, again, not a hard and fast rule.

I won't grow them, apart from the Tea Bourbons. Period. Smell good, look like @#!*%. I could tolerate the blackspot in many years (if we don't have a damp spring), but rust, nope.

Thanks to everybody for all this information, which I'm going to be digesting for a while. I do think I have a relatively good situation for Bourbons, as black spot and rust are basically not a problem here, and they seem to take fairly kindly to our soil. The pictures fans posted certainly are tempting.
I'll add the reason why I posted this in the first place. I got a mislabeled rose that I puzzled over for some time: it certainly wasn't the Tea it purported to be and it didn't look like a Hybrid Tea either, or anything else I could place in a class. Then one day I was gazing at its pink blooms with cream underlay, its smooth green canes and large leaves, its big globular orange hips with persistent sepals, and I was smelling its distinctive and delicious scent. Something clicked in my brain, and I said to myself, "Bourbon". I still don't know what my rose is, though I like it, and I can't swear that it is a Bourbon; but my identification made me aware that I had a developed a set of identifying characteristics for this class, and I wanted to know how accurate they are. Thanks for the help! I think I'll be looking for places to put more Bourbons in our garden.
Happy gardening to all!
Melissa

re; olga_6b photos of roses. please, please someone tell what that rose is in olga's photos? I have just fallen completely and utterly in love!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I must have one, whatever it is!

My best guess is that it's the first rose she mentioned, 'Madame Isaac Pereire'; I would have waited for her response, only I don't think she still posts here, unfortunately.

It's a beauty, I agree,

Virginia

thank you for responding so quickly! I've got a madame Isaac pereire but it's a bare root rose so hasn't flowered yet. i'll keep my fingers crossed.

I hope 'MIP' does well for you; many Bourbons seem to need a bit of patience, but if it's in a good location, it may not take too long before you get some flowers.

Good luck,

Virginia

Marie, do a search of fragrancenutter (who currently posts on the Roses Forum), and you will see one post devoted to MIP that's just wonderful. Fragrancenutter grows incredible roses in Perth, Australia, in a very hot, dry climate. All her roses are grafted on fortuniana. It certainly looks like Olga's photos are a match with fragrancenutter's MIP photos. Diane

I live where blackspot pressure is high, and I don't use fungicides. I also have a handful of Bourbons in my garden, and some do better than others with regards to keeping nice foliage.

For me, the cleanest is 'Souvenir de Victor Landeau', followed closely by 'Mme de Sevigne' -- which is like a "free-standing climber" version of 'Mme Isaac Pereire'. I don't know if it's that they're inherently less susceptible to whatever fungal strains are in my area, or if they just quickly shed affected leaves and replace them. In any case, they keep their leaves almost perfect until about November.

'Souvenir de la Malmaison' doesn't seem to get blackspot, either, but does get a touch of mildew in Spring before the first flush when it's cool and damp. This disappears on its own when the temperatures get into the 80s, and doesn't return until about November, when we often have had some cold spells followed by warm spells. In any case, its "ugly times" are when there aren't any blooms, so I don't pay it any attention.

"Sophie's Perpetual" is usually listed as a China, but I think of it as a China-leaning Bourbon -- since it smells like a Bourbon. Mine gets touches of blackspot, maybe only slightly more than the others I mentioned, but since it's still small and growing slowly, one affected leaf is a higher percentage of the total number of leaves. So maybe I notice it more.

'Honorine de Brabant' keeps healthy leaves most of the season, but starts to lose those on the bottom foot to foot and a half. To give perspective, it's currently reaching over 6 feet tall. When it loses leaves lower down it doesn't replace them -- instead focusing on extending the tips of its canes and leafing out there.

'Mme Dore' and 'Mlle Blanche Lafitte' both go naked or nearly so in July, after the first flush is over. They then leaf out again, only to go naked once more by about October. These two are slower growing, for me, which probably relates to how quickly they refoliate. 'Mlle Blanche Lafitte' has me scratching my head, because it does have a few stout canes about 3 feet tall, but it seems to focus on making just one cane at a time, leafing out, then blooming. Maybe I'll give it a harsher haircut in Spring and see what it does. 'Mme Dore' I know doesn't get big, so I just snip off Winter damage and leave it alone, other than dead-heading.

"Maggie" is new to me, having come only this year. So far, it's kept its leaves, but it's also still small. We'll see how it does.

Then there's poor little 'Eugene de Beauharnais'. I originally planted this at the base of a tree in my front yard, where it got too much midday sun which burned its blooms. I moved it to the back, and it took some time to get adjusted again. Now I think I'll just turn it into a pot-pet, but that will wait until Spring. Why keep it in a pot? Well, I keep hearing how much of a wimp it is on its own roots, and I prefer wimps in pots filled with my "magic mix" to get them to be their best.

"Huilito" is a bit of a mystery. It's usually considered a China based on its growth, but anytime I see a "China" with that fragrance, I think it's something else genetically. Maybe it's a Bourbon -- I don't know for sure. This arrived only last Spring, so it's still new. But it keeps healthy foliage for me.

So there you have it -- a small but rather diverse group of Bourbons in my garden. Some stay clean, some don't. I may be trying a few more in pots, and if they do well, bring them down to my cemetery project. It's really hard to say for sure what will work unless you hear from others in your area, or are willing to try them out for yourself.

:-)

~Christopher

That is very detailed and full of information Christopher! BTW 'Souvenir de Victor Landeau' isn't available anywhere, it must have been another steal from vintage! Are you working to get some of the rare babies you have available? You are so lucky!

I've noticed another photo higher up the thread that shows a rose Deuil de Dr. Raynaud, could this be the rose in Olga's photo? I cannot find that name listed in the u.k. and am wondering if it goes by a different name? marie.

Perhaps the name isn't turning up because it's 'Deuil du Docteur Raynaud', not 'Deuil de Docteur Raynaud'? http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.1517.2

ooh, I hadn't noticed my misspelling, thanks for that!

I know Olga did have that particular rose and praised it highly. I had it for a short time and it grew and flowered very quickly, but it's not really a rose for hot, dry climates with poor soil, and it had long branches rather than being bushy, which wasn't right for that particular location. It still seems to be an excellent rose.

Marie, it's super-easy to mistake a 'de' for a 'du'; the original post had it wrong, also. I once had a heckuva time trying to find 'Souvenir de Dr Jamain' for the same reason... now I know it's 'du'...

They're both gorgeous roses; I hope you post lots of photos once your MIP finally starts blooming.

Virginia

Marie, your going to have to have some patience. That rose needs at least 3 years to have the big, incredible flowers. It needs good rich soil and plenty of water. Don't be dismayed by the fewer small flowers of the first years. Give the bush plenty of room to grow and don't cut it too short. Just the fragrance alone makes it worth growing. If you want something similar that's a more compact plant, you might like La Reine.