You are unlikely to find any definitive studies on human health because in order for such studies to have merit, they would have to be done as a bioassay. The diet of the human subjects would have to be strictly controlled, and if negative consequences were found, ethics would require the study be discontinued. I don't think you are going to find solid evidence either pro or con, just opinions; some better informed than others.

In agriculture, both chemicals are a concern because they contribute to soil acidity (not usually a desirable trait here in the southeast) and they add nitrogen without contributing to soil health. Plants need more than NPK, especially perennial and tree crops. Further, just because the plant has adequate NPK doesn't mean that the crops are necessarily have the health benefits of the other micronutrients normally stored in their fruit. (Again, solid evidence is unlikely to be available on that point.)

Additionally, both contribute to excess nitrate in the environment, particularly in water systems. Excess nitrate in water consumption IS a health hazard. To be fair, the problem with the excess nitrate runoff is more because many farmers over-use these relatively cheap chemicals and do not practice good erosion control.

While these fertilizers can be toxic directly to the farmer, as far as I know there's nothing to indicate that plants would uptake those fertilizers and store them in their fruit or leaves in any harmful form.

IMO, it is certainly possible to cause environmental harm and not have healthy soil farming "organically" and it's also possible to behave responsibly and be a good steward of your land using non-organic materials and methods. Organic safe nor does non-organic = dangerous.

In my own garden, orchard and buying habits, I go for what I call "organic-ish." I try to use the best and safest effective remedy that has a reasonable cost. If that remedy comes from an organic source, great -- but I don't choose not to use a very safe chemical like iron phosphate just because it doesn't technically come from an organic source.

I LOVE that word, alabamanicole...."organic-ish". That's a very worthy goal for most of us!

barberberry, how do you label your produce now? "Organically Grown", "Organic", "Pesticide Free"? Just wondering.

Medically speaking, no harm will occur to those who eat your delicious fruits and vegetables and berries if you use ammonium based manufactured nitrogen as your fertilizer of choice.

You see, plants can only take up their essential nutrients as specific chemical elements. Plants cannot tell the difference between (just for example) between a nitrogen source from a bag or bottle or cow or goat or whatever. It won't be taken up until it is transformed (by microbes) from manure to a nitrogen compound that plants can absorb. ZERO difference, once it gets into the plant; exact same chemical fingerprint.

HOWEVER, it does make a big difference to the soil and to that very important population of beneficial microorganisms within that soil. Organic matter (stuff that was once alive) is primarily what they feed on. Without a teeming microbe population in the soil, plants can't grow (survive).

That same soil population has a need for other elements aside from NPK, as alabamanicole reminds us. It is absolutely possible to find manufactured fertilizer products with a supply of the important micronutrients (miner elements), however. But you do need to be aware of that necessity. Plants cannot live by nitrogen alone. Those miner elements have very important roles in the plant body. Without them, plants cannot function normally.

And you, as an organic-ish grower, will benefit enormously if your practices build healthy soil and foster those beneficial bacteria. It is much easier to grow healthy plants if the soil is healthy, too.

By the way, there HAVE been human nutritional studies in regards to the lack of certain micronutrients in their diet. The lack of complete nutrition comes from the fact that the animals we consume are fed with stuff grown on deficient soils. Heck, even manure from nutrient deficient animals can contribute to that unhealthy cycle.

I am an organic-ish gardener, too. I don't hesitate to use 'chemical' fertilizers for my plants (veggies, grass, annuals, containers) IN CONJUNCTION with a pretty wide variety of organic-based (once alive) products.

Here is a link that might be useful: Facts about Nitrogen

Thanks for your great feedback! All of my blueberries, blackberries and muscadine are advertised as pesticide-free. Unfortunately where we live, we need to spray Imidan on our peach and plum trees for plum curclio after petal fall and Captan in late April and early May to fight back various fungus-related issues. But, just for the record, I do use the Rainbow brand of fertilizers that contain a nice mix of both major and minor nutrients - 16-4-8 (with ammonium sulfate-based niotrogen) for my blueberries and 13-13-13 (with urea-based nitrogen) for my other fruit plantings - with both mixtures loaded with the proper levels of micronutrients as well.

I had heard from my extension agent that chemically-based fertilizers were safe, but I justed wanted to get confirmation from some on the organic side, not that my extension agent is not organic-minded.

I too like your organic-ish term and I will continue to strive to be more organic-ish as I continue to learn more every day about the not-so-exact-science of growing fruits and vegetables in the deep South.

Thanks again for all your great feedback!!

Ken Barber
Millbrook AL

Here is a link that might be useful: Some photos of our farm

I hate to see that you use Imidan, one of the most toxic chemicals on the market. I hope that one day these organophosphates will no longer be available. Perhaps by then, there will be a less insidious product you can use to protect your crops.

That's why I only spray at petal fall. I really don't care if the adult plum curculio come back in May and make small marks on the outside of the peaches. However, keeping them from laying their eggs on the peach bud right after petal fall is a must. Having worms in your peaches is just not a good thing for business. If anyone has any ideas on effective alternatives, please let me know.

I am absolutely not criticizing, but sympathizing with you. Imidan is so hazardous that I know it must be terribly challenging to protect oneself from it. I wish that universities would put more effort and money into agriculture.

I don't know if this would be cost effective for you, barberberryfarm, but the folks at Gardens Alive have numerous organic products, including pest control for fruit trees.

drippy: I checked out the site, but unfortunately I couldn't find any organic product to fight plum curculio, peach scab, squash bugs or stink bugs. I already use Neem Oil and Dipel, but neither of those work on the above. Hopefully one day the wizards of science will come up with an OMRI way to do that. Thanks, though, for telling me about this site.

Just wondering if you've given Surround WP a try. It's commonly recommended for a wide variety of pests over in the Fruits and Orchard Forum and a quickie search indicates that it is the top organic recommended product for curculio.

Spinosad products have been reported as being successful in controlling stinkbugs and other plant feeding insects. What have your results been? Neem is not used to create an immediate kill on ANYthing, but is a very successful anti-feedant and growth regulator. Neem also has fungicidal properties.

Just out of curiosity, do you belong to any Alabama or Southern fruit growers associations or to any other agricultural/small fruit support affiliations? Groups such as that can be enormously helpful! You probably know this already, but you don't have to wing this alone. You have the support of millions of research dollars behind you....you just have to link up to it.

rhizo, thanks for the great information. This past summer I found a little bit of Asana XL one time did wonders on killing squash and stink bugs when they invaded my outdoor hydroponic garden as well as our pumpkin patch in late July. What I also liked about it was its dried residue was harmless to bees the following day as well as it only had a 1 day preharvest requirement.

I'm a member of the GardenWeb Fruits and Orchard Forum and contribue to it periodically. As far as associations go, I am a member of the Alabama Fruit and Vegetable Growers Association (AFVGA) and the North American Raspberry and Blackberry Association (NARBA). I gain a lot of great information about growing blackberries from NARBA and some good information from the AFVGA and Southeastern Fruit and Vegetable Growers annual converences. Unfortunately, the AFVGA doesn't have a blog that I'm aware of where Alabama farmers can exchange information on a daily/weekly basis. I wish there were.

As far as winging this alone, my regional extension agent as well as the GardenWeb and the associations I'm a member of, have been a great source of knowledge these past seven years that my wife and I have delved into this full-time farming adventure. But I've also found growing produce here in the Deep South, especially down here near Montgomery, is not the same as growing it in Tennessee, North Carolina or even Florida. That's why I always enjoy exchanging ideas with other folks from Alabama when I can find them.

Thanks again for your ideas and I'll try Surround WP on my peaches and plums at petal fall this coming year and see how it goes.

Ken

You sound like one of those people who have your fingers on the pulse of your industry! Good for you! Not only will your associations with those organizations help you, but YOU and your experiences will help them.

No, not really. I'm more of a "trial by error" kind of guy, but I try to learn from my mistakes. Funny thing about farming, just when you think you're finally on the right track, Mother Nature comes along and says "have you seen this one yet?" I guess that's why I like this stuff so much. It's kind of like golf. Everybody can give their opinion on how to do something, but when it comes down to it, it's just you and the plant.

Thanks again for your thoughts!

Ken

I like your attitude, Ken! Just you and the plant, and sometimes the BUGS.

But your willingness to "trial and error" is an invaluable resource that others would be interested in knowing. It says you will try something different where others might continue doing the same old thing regardless.

So you might be the catalyst, or the missing factor, required to bring life to solving the problems of your industry. Go for it!

I don't know about that, but what I do know is there is a tremendous amount of information on the ACES web site as well as other Internet sites. The trick is in determining which information applies to your specific location, climate and soil type.

I remember hearing that we couldn't grow raspberries down here near Montgomery because of the summertime heating. However, when I read a lady had terrific success growing them down near Mobile under a grove of pecan trees, we were inspired to try and bought about 200 plants. We tried for two years and had some minimal success, but since we didn't grow them in a shady area, the day and nightime heating pretty much cooked them and they died off the third year. Lesson learned: pay attention to the details of an article and the location where the plant is being grown (e.g., under a pecan grove and in an area where there cooler evenings).

Cherry trees also fall into this catagory. We planted 24 cherry trees and have two Dwarf North Star varieties left. Lesson learned: Just because the chill hour requirement for some fruit trees might be in the same range as where you live, doesn't mean they will grow like they do farther North. The same goes with Granny Smith apple trees and their susceptibility to fire blight (based on ACES information). It eventually killed 12 of the 14 apple trees we planted. Buy apple tree varieties that are resistant to fire blight.

However, we have had great success with blueberries, blackberries, peaches, nectarines, persimmons, plums, plumcots and our outdoor hydroponic vegetable garden and are still quite motivated to continue with our farming adventure and recommend it to anyone who has ever thought about growing fruit and vegetables in their backyard. There is definitely plenty that will thrive in our warm and humid Alabama climate.