Seil, I really want to hear more about this from you. Regular progress reports? Consider this a request from the Heritage Roses Group . . . :-)

Jeri

I'd love to keep you posted on it, Jeri! If these three manage well I'm already looking at which Noisette I might give a try, lol!

I did research these on HMF and all three show they've been grown in some colder places. That was part of why I chose them. Well, that and the fact that I was just crazy about Mutabilis and wanted it! It hasn't disappointed either!

I'd expect Mutabilis to survive in any of them. I had one in the ground for a couple of years before I decided a 12 inch rose that barely bloomed was silly. It does much better in a pot in the garage. Old Blush is another one that won't necessarily die outside.

I've never grown a Tea. I'm trying to remember what Lily said about them. I think they are considerably fussier than Chinas to grow around here. They may want more summer heat.

So I'd put the tea in the shed, and the chinas against the house. I'd also buy a min/max thermometer or two, and see what the real temperatures in these various places are. It is possible they don't conform to your thinking, and that may affect how you store things in the future.

The early Noisettes are going to be hardier. Tea-Noisettes are greenhouse roses here, and even then they aren't a cakewalk.

Thanks, Mad, for the suggestions. I hadn't thought about just putting one or two in the shed.

I'm surprised about your Mutabilis. I rooted my cutting in June of 2012. When it came out of the greenhouse in a one gallon pot in April of 2013 it was already growing and now is a 3 X 3 foot bush and is still in bloom even in the cold we have right now.

But surprisingly both of the other two are blooming right now too! The temps have been down as low as 30 at night with day time temps in the 40s and 50s and both the Duke and Duchess are blooming! They've grown a lot from their bands but are still much smaller than Mutabilis so maybe I'll try and get just those two in the shed? I'll have to see if that's doable.

I do have a thermometer inside the greenhouse all winter. It's particularly useful in the early spring because of the strengthening sunlight. I've had the inside of the greenhouse go up over a hundred degrees and had to open it up to vent it and cool it back down. I don't have one inside the shed though so I'll definitely have to do that and check what happens in there.

As a rule, Seil, I think that it is winter wet which is the killer - much more than winter cold.....so, like you, I take some precautions (but dealing with very different plants). Once dormancy has been reached, then I keep any plants almost dry - I often tip pots onto their sides to keep rain and snow out of the pots and with my tiny high alpines, I cloche or cover with simple panes of glass. I think if you are using a mulch or cover such as bracken, leaves, etc.. I would be even more circumspect about keeping all excess moisture out. My citrus, for example, are almost totally dry, as are many of the south African bulbs. But hey, I have seen pics of your winter protection set-up and it surely looks just the ticket for coddling wimpy roses.

Thanks, Camp! Winter is usually our driest time actually. Even with the snow our humidities fall a great deal. With that and high winds we battle dehydration here so sometimes I end up having to find a way to water them if it doesn't snow on them. I can't leave a hose hooked up because of the freezing temps so I end up carrying water out from the house in jugs. I save a bunch of milk jugs to use. I'm sure it looks funny to see me out there watering plants in February!

Hi Seil

You know I'm totally rooting for you (pun intended) in overwintering these kinds of roses, since I'm a zone pusher myself. I have 5 teas with two more ordered, a noisette (MAC), and plenty of other roses that aren't supposed to survive in zone 5. You obviously have a great system that works for you, and I admire your tenacity in burlap wrapping and leaf-stuffing these roses. You get the benefit of that effort, since I've never pulled back protection to find actively growing roses, but at least between us we can attest that these warm weather roses can survive reasonably well with some active planning and care.

I agree with camps that winter wetness is much more of a problem to avoid, particularly if you have leaf cover for the roses. I presume the leaves you pack around the tender roses are kinds that don't mat down, as I've had some nasty surprises with cane death from soggy leaf masses in the spring. The main thing that I seem to be doing these days to winter protect my teas is provide a significant wind break, and a protected pocket of air around the wimpier ones. My system is to set full leaf bags around the perimeter of all the teas and fill in the middle space with oak leaves. I don't do anything else fussy, and the tops stay open to snow (or lack of snow, most years). I'm way too lazy to provide winter watering or fussing, and the teas have been basically cane hardy with this method, though not actively growing as yours have been.

My take on your system is that you're already doing enough protection with your current system to expand your zone pushed roses. Putting them on the warm side of your house might be as much as a zone warmer, which for you would be zone 7, then the burlap and leaves add the potential for as much as another zone of buffer. Having them in pots might lose you an estimated zone of protection, but with your methods of stuffing space around the pots it might not, since you're duplicating the protection the ground is providing your roses. As long as there's some wind break around the rose, it doesn't sound like it's going to matter exactly where in your warm bed you put these, and I don't think you need to fuss with additional protection methods (like the shed or near the greenhouse) beyond what's already working for you. Worst case scenario is that you're creating a zone 7 environment with what you're already doing, and possibly the kind of zone 8 where they prefer to be. As long as you get the summer heat, they should be reasonably happy.

For what it's worth, I have two of my teas on the west end of my warm side of the house (an estimated zone 6 zone in my yard), and I do make sure to put up the wind break on the west side of those roses fairly early in the winter. Of course I do this with the lazy method - I've started collecting leaves from neighbors for my Christmas break rose protection "party", but I store a row or two of the bags waiting for official use on the west side of these roses starting any time now. Among the teas I grow, I'd guess Mme. Antoine Mari is the hardiest and best bloomer, followed by Maman Cochet and perhaps Mrs. B.R. Cant (these last two are the ones on the west end of the bed). Georgetown Tea survives fine but isn't a strong bloomer, and Duchesse de Brabant is overcoming a lot of competition from neighbors and is still tiny. Someone suggested that if MAC is cane hardy for me next to the house I should try Marechial Niel next time, and I'm sorely tempted, though apparently it's a bit finicky even in warmer zones. I'm definitely going for Mutabilis after the thumbs up from you and Mad Gallica, and you've encouraged me to give another China a try. Clementina Carboniari is on my wish list too, and I'm nearly to the point where there isn't a rose I wouldn't try, as long as we continue to have enough summer heat to justify the confusing winters.

The only remaining tip to ponder is something that Kim mentioned on a different thread. He said that the teas and evergreen varieties of roses are expecting to grow and bloom in the winter and rest in the hot summer, and it turns out that we in cold zones are expecting them to reverse their habits. I think the point we'll have to watch in our zone pushing might not be only whether the roses survive the winters, but whether they adjust to the summers with this kind of reverse habit. So far so good as far as we've both seen, but it's something to watch for.

BTW, the teas/noisettes/OGRs that I couldn't overwinter with protection include the following (though this was in years I was a little less particular): Reve d'Or, Safrano, Nacogdotches, and Monsieur Tillier. Still, those aren't bad odds, and I have more confidence that I can overwinter most teas than most Pernetianas or Dot roses. By all means, go for the gold, and we want to see pictures!

Cynthia

Cynthia, thank you so much! It's so nice to hear from someone who has tried all this too.

I do sometimes worry in the spring when the mulched leaves get wet with rains but so far I've been very lucky and haven't had a problem with too much water. I don't have oak leaves unfortunately. I am surrounded by many huge maples and those are what I use. We do mulch them up before using them but they can still mat somewhat.

I have to laugh because I steal my neighbor's leaf bags too! We get probably 10 or 12 bags of our own but I need about 20 bags to do the roses. So out I go in the wee hours of the morning before the trucks come and drag my neighbor's bags home. The things we'll do for our roses, lol!

The burlap acts as a pretty good wind break besides holding all the leaves in place. I haven't had a problem with the canes getting dessicated.

I never thought about the season reversal. My summers do get hot but rarely over 100 and usually for only a very short spell. Being on the water keeps the temps fairly moderate all the time. And the humidity UP. Even just a mile or so further from the shore and the temps go up in the summer and down in the winter from ours. Hopefully that might help. Those big bodies of water don't tend to change temps rapidly or a great deal and they moderate our air temps the same way.

You've given me hope and I want to see pictures of yours next season too!