It was my understanding only the business was part of the sale. Keith Zary and the propagation part and growing fields were not included. I don't know what became of him or the plants in the pipeline. I'm sure they're some restrictions on his work and plants for a number of years.
The J&P catalog you got is from Park Seeds and Wayside selling under J&P's name which they own.
I haven't bought from J&P in years so I've dicovered most of the others

You guys -- Here's the deal.
No more J&P.
DONE. Over. Finished.

Keith Zary recently resigned -- tho there wasn't much left to resign from.
Weeks will sell J&Ps final crop -- after that, finis, tho some entity will own the "intellectual properties."

The domino effect hit Weeks, and their holding company also just filed Ch. 11 bankruptcy, so it will be interesting to see what we are left with, in the end.

Karl, FWIW, the J&P growing fields in Wasco WERE sold separately. I'm sure they will, eventually, "grow" industrial buildings, as that is what is happening in that area.

Jeri

I wonder if any of these roses will not be available anymore after this year? More to the point - wondering if I should order a few?

This just kinda makes me sad.

and yes, will roses from J&P be really hard to find after this...? Will it be like some of Moore's roses, which you just can't really find anywhere after he died?

I was planning to order one of J&P's umbrella trellis' next year. Do you think I should get it now while I can or are you saying there's another company doing business as J&P.

Laurie

Jeri, I figured the field would grow malls, industrial sites, or housing developements. Wasn't sure of the rest. Thanks for that info.
What a waste!

I'm not a regular reader of this forum or a rose scholar by any means. I have a decent bed and all are from J&P.

I moved to a new zone a few years ago (I'm on the exact border of 23/24 in San Diego) and have had to try a lot of different stuff. Some have worked, some haven't. My best performer by far has been Voluptuous. I was planning to order several more plants from J&P for delivery about Jan 1st. Is this a good or bad idea?

Are there other good bare-root providers who ship in January?

clob, anything you could order from J&P, you can buy at a nursery in your area.

For me, mail order is for older and rarer roses, which were not available from J&P to begin with. Mainstream moderns we have always bought at a local nursery.

Patronize a REAL nursery, please (not Home Depot or Lowe's) and help them stay in business. They, too, are endangered.

I am told that Weeks will be marketing J&Ps final crop, so those roses should be available at nurseries in your area.

Jeri

Jeri, I'm in San Diego. I usually patronize Walter Anderson's or Armstrong's. I don't ever recall seeing Voluptuous as a bare-root at either of those places in January.

I also don't know of any other "real" nurseries in my area that would carry it. If you do, please let me know.

Clob, what you CAN do at your local nurseries as as the manager what they ordered (and from whom). Not a guarantee that the whole order will be filled, but at least it's information.

Jeri, how do you think Weeks will offer the last year's roses. The J&Ps are not on their website yet...

lagomorphmom
Weeks is a wholesale only grower. J&P's roses will only be sold to nurseries and garden centers for retail sales to the public. You can't buy roses directly from Weeks site. You'll be at the mercy of the nurseries and garden centers.

Clob, There are at least two very reputable mail order nurseries in California that currently offer 'Voluptuous' -- Garden Valley Ranch Nursery and Regan Nursery. Both have websites, and both supply superior bareroots.

I live in San Diego also.

Voluptuous was on Walter Anderson's rose inventory last year.

Another local nursery out in El Cajon is Kniffing's Nursery. Voluptuous was on their bareroot rose list last year also.

http://sdrosesociety.org/2009_kniffings_bareroot_rose_list.doc

Here is a link that might be useful: Walter Anderson's 2010 rose list

Thanks windeaux and segask.

Segask, I guess I've always shopped at the Walter Anderson's in midtown/Pt Loma. Sounds like the Poway center is much larger. Guess I'll just ask them. I'd also never heard of Kniffing's. Thanks for the tip.

"Jeri, how do you think Weeks will offer the last year's roses."

*** Tom told me they were contracted to market J&Ps final crop.
I didn't ask for details.
I would expect that the J&P plants will be sold through nurseries, as the Weeks plants are.

Jeri

Weeks was "contracted to market J&P's final crop"

Well, sort of, Jeri. According to the legal websites about the Weeks bankruptcy proceedings, Weeks was growing the crop of J&P roses for 2010, and didn't get paid for them, to the tune of $1.7 million. Therefore, they ended up with the next crop of roses that they thought they were also growing for J&P, as roses are grown for two years before delivery. That is part of what caused the Weeks bankruptcy, the other part being some land leases for which payments were due, that were essentially guaranteed by Weeks parent company, but for businesses which that company had sold and no longer controlled.

Here is a link that might be useful: Declaration of Weeks' Lawyer re Weeks' B'cy

Interesting link from KStrong.
The begats that lead to the mess (who bought whom and when), the comments as to inferiour roses being produced in Arizona as opposed to superior plants being produced in California, and the relative gross income of the dwarf conifer part of the business versus the rose business. (Who'd a thunk that dwarf conifers were making them more money than roses?)

As to other ripples from the J&P rock dropped in the pond, the potential loss of Park Seed Company is very bothersome to my part of the country; I like their seeds, they have high viability, and a good, if not great, selection at reasonable prices.

Unlike many, I'm not too dismayed at J&P's demise; they dominated AARS winnings most years and their roses, with notable exceptions, were bred too much for California to survive in my climate. I'm hoping the loss of J^P and other large growers will help out the smaller fish like Rogue Valley and Heirloom and Antique Rose Emporium, etc.

Blame it on Knockout...and Home Depot and Lowes etc.

Here is a link that might be useful: Garden Musings blog

I thought I read that Parks seed was bought up (can't remember by whom right now) and that they are staying put for at least 3 years. I agree with Ann whole heartedly about this company. When I first started using them they only offered seed, then they began offering perennials and then roses. The latter may have been due to their afiliation with Wayside/J&P. I haven't heard anything about Wayside at all. Disappointed as I am in loosing J&P and possibly Wayside, I'd really be distraught if Parks went of business.

Well, shoot.
That information about J&P defaulting on Weeks is later than my conversation with Tom.
And I am REALLY sorry to hear that.

J&Ps action doesn't surprise me, but sure disappoints me.
That may explain the timing of Keiths resignation from J&P.

Jeri

It's also explains why the AARS rose designations are in disarray.
I wonder what Tom had to say in Atlanta this past weekend?

I HOPE he was able to say that Weeks can pull out of this and go on.

Otherwise, it's like "The day the music died . . . " only it's "The year the roses died." :-(

Jeri

Will Kieth Zary be retiring? I suppose he had to give up ownership and control of his breeding stock?

There's the question I've been pondering. What's going to happen to the intellectual property? Is there any hope that massive failure among massive companies will lead to changes in the way breeders are able to get their creations to us?

I'm having problems finding the right words, but in essence, if the big wholesalers cease to exist, does it follow that our favorite mail order nurseries might have a better chance at developing better relationships with hybridizers? If there aren't powerhouses driving the market I would think that the next viable option for customers and creators to turn to would be the places from which we all order our roses. Does this make any sense?

With these recent developments, we're experiencing a virtual sea change in the American rose industry -- a change that's likely to be the new norm for a very long time to come. It was the "powerhouses" that had the resources to engage in hybridizing and lengthy trial periods on the scale necessary to bring a handful of new rose varieties to market each year. The nationally known hybridizers with whose work we're all familiar could hardly have achieved their stature without the backing of those few major companies.

The present disintegration of the industry is creating a huge void in the system as we've always known it. It's conceiveable that before too long, most new introductions into the American market will come from European houses. Perhaps I'm being too pessimistic, but I doubt that I am.

Maybe a silver lining in all of this will be an ever-increading interest in OGRs. That would be a good thing.

OGRs???? what does this mean?

Another silver lining is more amateur hybridizers might be able to get their roses marketed. There are many great roses hybridized every year that fail to get noticed. A few get pictured here with an available source, but, while we make a lot of noise among ourselves, we are not that big of a market to support the rose industry.
How many of us might buy a rose from an independent hybridizer, 500, 1000?
Weeks and J&P pretty well controlled the wholesale rosebush market. They featured their own roses or those of other well know hybridizers. Any attempt to crack into their offerings met with failure. When they did offer something not from their program it was what was popular, like the Knock Outs, English Roses, or the better selling offerings from Kordes, Meilland, or other European hybridizers.
Conard Pyle (Star Roses) is one of the few wholesalers to offer roses from independent hybridizers. Early on they picked up the Knock Out roses when nobody else would take them and now they're about the only rose offered in many garden centers and nurseries.

Happy Butt, which I have a lot of fun with, is a really nice hybrid tea.
{{gwi:336588}}
Aside from me there are few sources for this rose. I'd venture to say, it's in fewer than 300 gardens.

Karl, that's sincerely what I'm hoping. I'd never wish for the failure of any company that brings roses to market for us, but maybe without the pressure induced by some of those houses we'd see other hybridizers' work as nurseries scrambled to get something to sell.

I read elsewhere some interesting discourse on the topic of advertising. We have cars, pharmaceuticals, and video games crammed down our throats, but when was the last time you've seen an ad for a rose? Over the entirety of the summer I saw 1 ad for Carpet roses three times on one network. Seriously---compared to the products I listed, roses are a mere drop in the bucket when it comes to spending discretionary income. I saw tons of ads for other plants by Proven winners, and they appear to sponsor much of the programming on the Weather Channel.

There are 1000 channels on tv right now. Many of them are tailored to outdoor/rural living, green issues, or home improvement. There isn't ONE company willing to drop an ad or two on any of these networks?

Pembroke, OGR = Old Garden Roses, which are elegantly discussed on the Antique Roses forum.

---Laura

flaurabunda
You along with many others here, fail to realize the market for roses is tiny compared to cars, pharmaceuticals, and video games.
You did hit the nail on the head though with the question "There isn't ONE company willing to drop an ad or two on any of these networks?"
Keep in mind though, advertising costs for hit shows on major networks and many independant cable networks are outof sight and probably more than the total yearly net income for most major rose growers. Their audience isn't all that big and I doubt an advertisement for rose bushes would have a very big payback.
While we think we on the rose forum buy a lot of roses, our contribution to the total number purchased each year is minimal.
Each time we cheat and root a cutting from a patented rose we're reducing that amount. Any time there's an economic downturn, people cut back on everything but basics. Among the first things they stop buying are landscaping plants and materials.
Because roses are our hobby and first love in plants, we think most people should feel the same.
While the rosebush market is huge, it's small in the overall scheme of things. With less money being spent on rose bushes, what remains has to be divided up among all the nurseries. Big outfits like J&P, Weeks, Park Seeds, etc. have a lot of overhead and fixed costs.
Imagine the taxes on all those growing fields!
There's a bigger return growing houses and shopping malls than there is roses.
With the crackdown on imigration, labor cost are going up.
The US unemployed fail to answer ads for farm workers, not enough pay, hours suck, and the work's too hard.
We'll have to support the remaining growers, big and small, or they'll be none left.

Karl, I WAS going to say that I loved your HAPPY BUTT...but on further reflection I realized what I would be saying. BLUSH!!! :-O

Take good care, my friend.

Debbie

P.S., I DO love the coloration and HT form your lovely photo shows. :)

The laws governing patenting of new varieties have never really been enforceable. Having said that, surely rose lovers can agree to 1. not violate patent laws, unless to preserve a variety no longer in commerce, and 2. not to buy from backyard and flea market vendors who indiscriminately propagate whatever is at hand. I once asked about the variety names of some minis offered at a flea market. I recieved a belligerent response from the vendor, a man with a thick hispanic accent, "Why do you need to know the names? They are roses!" I refuse to buy any rose which does not have the name clearly marked, including the "Palace Roses" sold at grocery stores. I gather they come from Paulsen, but the fact that the provenance, if not the identies, can be discovered on theis forum does excuse the marketers from the responsibility of proper and complete labelling. I have no wirh to denigrate all persons of hispanic extraction, at the same flea market I frequented the stand of a hispanic couple who offered potted roses, clearly labelled, and large, healthy plants. I bought from them, as I remember, Cottage Garden, and several other Austins, all of which did very well for me. I suppose the couple were buying leftovers from commercial nurseries, and reselling. If so, they were doing rose growers a service, as leftovers at nurseries tend to be shoved in a corner, allowed to dry out, and are generally in very poor condition.

I am quite sad by the news of J&P's demise. Some of my happiest memories are my mother and me pouring over the annual catalogue during the long winter months in Montana working and re-working our orders for the sping. We would have long debates about the potential of different yellow roses or which HT would best survive our climite. It was like a holiday when that catologue showed up with all the lovely photos triggering dreams of our spring gardens. Also I had very good customer service with J&P over the years, I am sad to see it go.

Karl,
I absolutely get what you're saying about the advertising, and how our numbers pale in comparison to other products or total market share for roses. However, it's amazing how quickly certain vendors are already sold out of popular roses at this point in the ordering season, and how hard it is to get other roses. There are quite a few right now that are out of reach for those of us in the north due to incompatible root stock.

There's certainly a demand, and to me I feel like there's a huge disconnect between the large suppliers and us as customers. We're asking for rose "x", yet they push out rose "y". Or worse, they rename an old rose & re-market it as something new. They send grafted roses to retailers in climates where we prefer own-root, and they languish or wither at the local nursery because we won't purchase them.

There are a few people out there who "get it" and are fighting tooth and nail to stay open while listening to their customers. What I'm hoping is that they are able to forge better relationships with breeders without the possibility of losing a contract to a more lucrative (yet usually restrictive) offer from a major company. I dunno--maybe it's just wishful thinking, or errant thinking on my part. It's obvious the business model didn't work, and hopefully the changes will be for the better instead of more of the same, which leads to extinction.

dove_song
After reflecting on your comment, I can see where it could be misconstrued. I have several larger potted plants in my greenhouse. If interested contact me via e-mail for particulars.

Karl, You're off base when you label Weeks as unresponsive to amateurs. They have two AARS winners from amateurs, St. Patrick & Dream Come True. Looking through their catalog, you'll see Heart o'Gold, Lynn Anderson, Honey Dijon, Pretty Lady, Gourmet Popcorn, Rhapsody in Blue, Pearly Gates. All from amateurs. Not so for J&P.

Sweet of you, Karl. Thanks. :)