Tammy, if these roses are "can't live without" types and you're willing to gamble that they won't either come in moldy, dead or not what they're labeled, AND, you're feeling lucky, go for it. I first bought from Hortico in 1984. There were the same problems associated with them then as there are now. Some people have acceptable service and results from them. I purchased roses no one else offered from them until about 1990 (with misnamed plants in every shipment I received) when not only did I not get what I ordered and what their tags said were the varieties, but the roses came in heavily molded and mostly black and squishy and none lived. I have never received my refund nor were the plants ever replaced. I fought them for several years until I finally gave up and wrote them off. Mine is NOT an isolated incident, nor have they cleaned up their act as the exact story I just related to you happened to people I know this year. How much risk are you willing to gamble and how much money are you willing to throw away? It's been 21 years since I threw my money away on ordering from them, and I continue hearing the same complaints about them year, after year, after year...Kim

Now Kim your story is over the top! I've ordered from them for years and enjoy roses I never would have without them. Now I could say the same thing about Vintage. A lot of their's ended up dead.

To say that Kim's story is OTT is to imply that his story is either a gross exaggeration, or patently false. Based solely on my own experience with Hortico, I find his story to be entirely believable.

Like Jim, I've lost some of those tiny, barely rooted cuttings that Vintage sometimes supplies. However, on the rare occasions that I've felt it necessary to contact Vintage with a complaint, I've never been blown-off and subjected to a barrage insult and baseless accusation (as in 'blame the victim'). Even the most basic tenets of customer service seem to be foreign concepts at Hortico.

Personally, I find it OTT to mention Hortico snd Vintage in the same breath.

I've received good quality roses from Hortico over the years, been pleased with the roses, and shipping.

They do have an interesting selection of roses, many of them that can't be found elsewhere.

I wonder if it has anything to do with shipping location? From just the couple of responses, it looks like the people who live closer to Onterio are having better results than those who live a greater distance. I've had what sounds like similar issues with Edmunds, at about 50/50 on survival rate. (but I to must defend Vintage, I really prefer own-root roses for the most part, even thought they require a little more effort on the front end)

"Stuff happens" and it's how it's taken care of that makes all the difference. Only three nurseries in nearly thirty years of buying roses via mail from pretty much everywhere in the US and Canada who would ship to California were consistently bad enough for me to write off. Hortico was the first. Distance and time of year could logically be considered causes, but only the distance and how they didn't fix their mistakes remained constant. I will plant any plant I receive with sufficient life left in it and out of several thousand, I have lost precious few. Only one own root supplier consistently provided too immature, too soft plants, also consistently mislabeled. They were the second source I wrote off for this and their continuing deliberate misinformation concerning virus infection. The third source is gone.

You pay your money and take your chances. If you like to gamble and can accept that your issues are likely, based upon past and recent reports, to be ignored, go for it. Kim

I had a terrible track record with Hortico until last year. Last year (while laid off) I went through and counted up all my prior purchases from Hortico where the plant never broke dormancy, were mislabeled or something else happened that I thought was their fault (and I do keep good records) and added up that I thought they owed me 31 plants for probably 10 years worth of orders with a wide assortment of issues. I sent them a LONG email detailing all that, what was wrong, and why I thought they owed me the 31 plants, along with a request to either replace the specific plants I had lost or "here is a list of acceptable alternates to those if you don't have them" that I had pulled out of their current website list.

Guess what? I got 31 free plants, most off the list of alternates (but that was fine with me). And they all lived and were properly labeled, save one that had the same name, but was a different rose of that same name from the one listed on their website (they do that alot).

And one of those is my very favorite florrie at the moment -- Goldelse.

I am satisfied, now finally, with their customer service. But it was a long process to get the issues fixed, and this was not the first time that I had complained.

So they are back on my "ok to make new orders list" if they have something I really, really want. That's not true of several others, that are in a whole class by themselves -- never ever send any money to Growquest or Summerstone, in my opinion. And I have not had good experiences with Vintage, and they are on my "don't buy here" list as well.

The thing that is really annoying with Hortico (and I think they still do this) is they will charge your credit card for a portion of the price of the rose up front, and the balance on shipping, and the shipping is generally at their convenience. Their website could say "available in October" and your roses will show up unannounced in April. And their inventory control system is horrible -- the people in the office will never have any idea what is actually in the warehouse, or when it can actually be shipped. I have heard people say that sending money to Hortico is like gambling -- you puts your money in, and you never know what you will get, and that certainly matched my experience for about ten years. But I like to gamble and take risks, and I consider Hortico a form of pleasant gambling now, and I've gotten some really good roses available nowhere else because of it.

I can attest to the issue on living closer to Canada not helping. I can see the Canadian shore from my street (across the Detroit River) and it is a 15 minute drive to Windsor, Ontario, Canada. This past spring I received a note that a few of my roses on back order were not available. I placed an order for a few additional roses and spoke to them on two occasions to make sure everything went smoothly. Well, first off the roses went to an old address, which was not that bad since I still own that house and the tenants called me the same day to tell me a box was there for me. After retrieving the box I took it home and opened it to find nothing but dead, shriveled grade #3 (I know, but that's how bad they were) bundles of junk. I have new ones arriving this fall, but to say I am a bit pessimistic is an understatement.

I've ordered hundreds (!) of roses from Hortico over the years.
Yes, my experience is also a mixed bag of emotions, but I don't think, I will ever stop ordering from them.
On the negative side, yes, you can have some roses on backorder for years, but I found a way to avoid this inconvenience. When I order, I make a clear remark that I don't want any roses on backorder. Just send me whatever you have in stock.
Yes, sometimes I receive mislabeled plants. Sending to them a simple email with my issue, supported by photos, always helped to solve the problem.
Their plants grow nicely in my garden. I believe, it is their understock.
Sometimes I prefer Pickering Nurseries over Hortico if they carry the same varieties, but nevertheless, I consider Hortico as a very good vendor, especially for newer and rare varieties.
Marina

Well...I think what I may do is order the 3-4 roses that I REALLY want and cannot get elsewhere, and cross my fingers that I get the correct roses & they live. I don't so much mind getting the wrong roses (if they replace them with the correct ones or refund my money), plus its still a rose...and that can't be a bad thing :) I'm more afraid of the ones that don't break dormency or arrive dead. I definitly won't go overbeard ordering from them (like I sometimes do from other places...lol!) ...I guess I'm one of those people that has to learn things the hard way :) Wish me luck! I'll either be one of the people praising Hortico or hating them by this time next year!

Well, don't ever expect a refund from them. THAT won't happen, ever. The most you will ever do is get some replacement roses. But if you apply some discipline and only get the ones that you cannot get elsewhere, then it can be fun to have roses that no one else has ever seen.

And folks, just like every other rose biz out there, I'm sure they are having the same financial difficulties as everyone else and would appreciate whatever biz they can get.

And if you expect the replacement roses to be better than the originals...fa getta boud it! They replaced my Canadian White Star twice and each time the specimens got worse not better. I gave up and wrote it off.

Well, I'm cured of ordering from Hortico. Planted 2 of their HTs last spring (first time I ever ordered from them)--the plants they sent were about 6-8 inches tall after planting. I eyeballed them this morning--they are still 6-8 inches tall--not one inch of growth in 5 months time! And I'm not waiting around a couple years to see if they are just slow starters. I'm digging them up and ordering the same HTs from Regan Nursery.

Don't know why the Hortico HTs won't grow--I didn't notice anything wrong with them last spring, although they did seem slightly smaller than bare roots I have received from other nurseries. I need at least a few new leaves to encourage me--but not even one new leaf on those two losers.

Guess I'll write it off as a loss.

Kate

well...as much as I hate to turn down ordering the three roses I really wanted, I think that's what I'm going to have to do for now. I just made up my mind that dead on arrival roses and mislabeled roses aren't going to get me those 3 roses I wanted anyways. Hopefully another seller picks them up and I'll be able to get them in the future (or a weak moment comes along and I break and end up ordering from Hortico) Just for curiousity's sake, or in case anyone knows of another seller (HMF's "where to buy" is out of date for these0, the 3 I was looking at purchasing were Imperatrice Farah, Waltz Time, and Bill Reid :(

I'm sorry the listings are out of date for the ones you're interested in. It's the listing nursery's responsibility to maintain their availability on the site. Unfortunately, too few seem to think it important. Kim

After looking around a little more I was able to find Imperatrice Farah at K&M Nursery in Mississippi. They seem to have a good reputation, but the problem is that they graft onto Fortuniana rootstock...which from what I've read isn't good for my zone & heavy clay soil....so I'm back to square one I guess :( Unless someone can tell me that Fortuniana rootstock is ok this far north...

~Tammy

"I'm sorry the listings are out of date for the ones you're interested in. It's the listing nursery's responsibility to maintain their availability on the site. Unfortunately, too few seem to think it important. Kim"

Perhaps HMF could make periodic updates a condition of their inclusion on the site.

And, what exactly does it entail for a nursery? Does each nursery have their data in a format which is easily uploaded to HMF periodically or would someone have to go through the list regularly to add and delete items? Seems like nurseries are struggling enough right now that maybe this is not their top priority.

I live over on the east side of the smokies. Same zone. Half of my roses are on fortuniana root stock. A little bit of winter protection come December through early March and everything should be OK. Just make sure your roses can survive your winters. I do a little bit of back round checking on my roses before I order. Surviving our winters is my biggest concern. I haven't lost anything due to rootstock failing. I figure if a rose survives mid west winters, it will be OK here.

Uploading a rose list is actually very easy. It can be done either individually by searching the specific rose and adding or deleting it from your list, or it can be uploaded as a text file. The instructions are right there under the "How Do I" tab on the top right. As the site got started, volunteers entered nursery lists and attempted to maintain them. As it's grown and volunteer efforts have become increasingly stretched, less time is available to maintain the nursery listings. Unless the nursery pays for a premium membership, it's free advertising for them. You come to find specific roses and where to obtain them. I know nurseries are stretched, but as easy as it is and as wonderful a method of getting your business known in the rose world, the few minutes it takes once or twice a year, unless you propagate continuously, should be considered well worth it. I don't know how successful requiring they maintain their listings would be. Personally, I'd love to see them all keep their information up to date, or pay to have it maintained. I don't think that's realistic, though. Kim

I've heard others say that once you get fortuniana through it's first winter it should be fine for zone 6 but I've never tried it myself. There are some that I can only find on fort that are very tempting though....

I'm not suggesting anyone try it, but I do know a lady from the Rose Hybridizers Association who grows an enormous Neptune on Fortuniana in New Jersey. The photos she's sent me appear it is VERY happy! Kim

I have ordered from Hortico many times. Would give their roses a B+ in my zone 5 garden. My Strawberry PArfait( Imperatrice Farah) is huge and healthy and about 4 years old. I find roses there that are not available anywhere else, like Sandra Renaissance, who is thriving in a less than desirable spot.

In regard to fortuniana, I guess there's really no way to know if it will be hardy here, other than to just try it with one or two bushes and see what happens. I guess whichever way I look at it I'm taking a chance; either with Hortico's quality control, or with fortuniana rootstock's hardiness. I think at this point the better gamble could be the fortuniana that comes from a nursery with a good reputation....

On a side note with the fortuniana, most every website catagorizes where I live as zone 6b, however if I enter my zipcode into the Arbor Day website, it tells me I'm 7a...So I guess that means I'm on the warmer side of the 6b zone, which is a good thing with the fortuniana...

The thing about fortuniana is that the root system stays rather shallow. I don't know, but I suspect that is the reason for the problem in colder areas. If you could put it somewhere (next to a building maybe) where the ground doesn't freeze solid too deep, that would probably help.

Tammy,
Fortuaniana, the rose survives well in east Tennessee. I know because mine has lived for twelve years, exposed to the winds on my hilltop.
The problem with grafting onto fort. is that Fort pushes growth 12 months of the year, regardless of the above ground conditions.
Because you want the rose (and it's not ten or twenty), you might want to test it and protect it through winter with a very loose mulch. You want to slow it down without cutting those main canes back.

If you get it this fall move it into a 3 gal. pot and drop the pot in the ground where you want it. If you get any REALLY nasty weather (below 20 with high winds) wrap it in an old blanket or something like that. That will protect it from freeze dry out. When the weather gets steady again, unwrap it. I've learned not to throw anything away I can wrap a rose with when necessary. NEVER use plastic.

Um, Ken, below 20F with winds is pretty common in the Knoxville area. Our linear mountains really funnel winds down our valleys.

Unlike north Georgia (which is somewhat protected by the Smoky Mountains and their southern extensions), east TN is the southern end of the Great Plains and there are times that it's easy to remember that the winds started out in the Canadian Arctic and really are just flowing at us.

Have you had a January thaw yet, followed by a late January deep freeze? That's the real problem time for roses that just couldn't help but start to grow when the days started getting longer in early January and the temps got a tease on March temps.

It's fun to try to keep one rose protected. Sometime ask me about how Susan Louise broke my heart. More than one or two is too much like work.

I know some friends over in Nashville who have ALL their roses on fortunia rootstock. All they do for winter protection is cover their garden about 2 ft. deep in leaves in the middle of December and start to uncover them in mid to late March. Their garden is 8 yrs old and the only roses they have lost were very tender ones. They won't order tender roses any longer. They haven't lost anything to rootstock failing them. They say the same thing. Take good care of it the first winter and you're OK. As far as a Jan. thaw? Yep. That is when you will lose a tender rose REAL fast. Winter protected or not.

Well, I had a weak moment tonight and ordered the 4 roses I really wanted from Hortico....let's cross our fingers that I didn't just flush my money! I was proud of myself for not getting any beyond the ones I truly wanted...that's an improvement for me :)

I think I will try 2 or 3 roses on fortunia, just to see how they do here. I guess I'll never know unless I try. Ann, I think you're right, I can baby one or two in the winter, but any more than that, and it becomes work!

I'll let everyone know what happens with both my Hortico roses and the fortunia rootstock...