What about a Damask Perpetual? Marbree and Duchess of Portland are only semi-double.

Just got a last call email from Vintage for their French Import roses. I admit to drooling over one Hybrid Perpetual from Loubert called Clemence Raoux. That's a frilly one, but I'm moving toward roses more suited to hot climates (Chinas and Noisettes), and leaving those others alone.

Here is a link that might be useful: Clemence Raoux

I grow all the classes and love them all. I can't help myself.

Campanula, it isn't really that I'm not interested in other classes, I've just decided that trying to recreate the universe to make those unhappy with my climate and growing conditions isn't worth wasting my limited resources on. I've been there and done that and it takes real effort to grow things unsuited to my climate. Now, if Damasks and Centifolias, Rugosas and their like would cooperate in my virtually year round season with low winter chill, very alkaline soil and water and intense summer heat, I would give homes to as many as I could create level space for. But, they didn't like the colder old garden and certainly wouldn't like this warmer one, so I concentrate on those things which cooperate with me and the area. It makes life a whole lot more enjoyable. Kim

I can say this, at least -- I HAVE grown most sorts of roses, even if I don't grow most of them now.

At least, I've grown Gallicas, Damasks, Centifolia and Damask Mosses, Hybrid Perps, Bourbons, Portland-Damasks, Rugosas and HR's, Floribundas, Several sorts of climbers, multiple ramblers, several species, Hybrid Teas, Miniatures and Micro-Minis, Polyanthas, Teas, Chinas, Noisettes --- Now I grow for the most part what will grow here with the least trouble, having eliminated (like Kim) the sorts of roses that just don't want to live here.

I've exhibited, too, and did a fair amount of winning -- tho we no longer do that.

At this point, I want to ENJOY roses. Not fight with them.

Jeri

Well, this is the dilemma isn't it? Do we attempt as much as possible in interests of knowledge, experience, desire, curiosity or just serendipity....or do we try to take a hard look at just exactly how hard we are going to work, how much we have to spend and mostly, what sort of space we have to fill. These two, often opposing positions, result in teeth grinding - which is why mine are now made of something definately inorganic...that, and too many sweets.

It appears that decision comes with the determination of how much energy and resources you have and how much of them you're willing to throw at the subject. Like Jeri, I've been there and done that. It was frustrating as all get out and it taught me many important things about the roses and gardening in general. The individual is the only one who can make that decision. I loved exploring and the discoveries it led me to. Now, I honestly don't want to have to care for a thousand plus plants (of any kind) and the associated water where I am now would definitely eat me out of house and home. I don't begrudge having the experience, but I wouldn't do what I did before, again. Too much work for too little reward. Give me happy plants I can work with and around instead of fighting them. Too much like people! LOL! Kim

I, too, have grown most of the classes mentioned by Jeri, some of them amazingly briefly. When I was young and had all that energy and less of that knowledge and wisdom, I wanted to try everything. That passion is tempered a little now - just a little. But, practically speaking, if we do not go through the process of experimenting how do we know what will grow well (and easily) in our climate? I am the opposite of Campanula in that I would not consider anything other than a fully double frilly rose. Now my taste has broadened and I appreciate the other forms as well and so in a sense I am like Campanula being willing to expand my horizons.

Cath

I completely ignore the once-blooming classes. There would be no point to growing them here. Without the long cold winters they need to go dormant, they would decline and eventually die.

Also, when you have a long long growing season and little space, having a blooming plant that won't be blooming 90% of the time, doesn't make sense. Unless it looks great as a foliage plant. Most roses don't look that great as foliage plants.

But I agree with others that sometimes you just gotta try. So I've tried HPs and Portlands and Bourbons.

By the way campanula, how do you feel about Malmaison carnations? I've got Duchess of Westminster this year. (I zone push with other plants, too!) I know they (and carnations in general) are a bigger thing in your country than mine.

I've never grown once-blooming roses but otherwise have tried every class, including repeat-blooming mosses (bad idea), hybrid perpetuals (ditto), singles, doubles, semidoubles and every color except true red. Basically I think most of us end up with what works and for me that's tea roses, the small Bourbons, Austins and a few each of polyanthas, old hybrid teas, Chinas, modern floribundas and tea-noisettes. I would hate to have to grow only one or two classes; that really would be boring.

Ingrid

Like most of you I've tried roses from every class I could grow at all, or thought I could grow. Noisettes were a mistake but I had Gloire de Dijon for a couple of years. I have never been fond of polyanthas or minis as I want my roses tall with blooms at nose height. I have a few as edging plants in front of bigger roses but I still find them rather uninteresting and generally scentless. Nathalie Nypels is an exception because I have a mass planting of it for colour more than for the value of the individual rose.

I should add that all roses like my climate. I do work very hard but it is only because I plant too much and it's all on a steep hillside.

I tried all classes. I am fortunate enough to live in a climate where once bloomers as well as tender Teas, Chinas, etc., all can be grown. It allowed me to see what I really like and what is growing well here.
It allowed me to understand that it does not really matter to me if a rose is repeat or oncebloomer. I would choose overwhelming show (even if it is brief) to constant bloom, if I really like the blooms.
I now grow species, gallicas,albas, spinosissimas, few damasks and mosses, teas, chinas, bourbons, some modern roses (includind Austins, HTs, Clements roses, etc), several wichurana and multiflora ramblers. I am especially fond of early oriental yeloow roses like Canary Bird, Primula, Hugonis, etc.
I don't grow centifolias and Noisettes anymores and only one HP. I probably will eliminate some roses moving forward which reqire more pampering, but ovberall my garden is quite easy to maintain now and rewards we with plenty of blooms.
Olga

Campanula, it's difficult to be adventurous when our tastes are so dictatorial or our climate is so restrictive. I adore big, fat blooms, have learned that singles can be exquisite but still find it hard to appreciate those floppy semi-doubles. I have a Wichurana rambler, Francois Juranville, simply to cover a partially shaded arbor with its healthy, mostly evergreen foliage. I'm looking forward to its 3rd spring coming up, hopefully, with a bunch more flowers and rampant growth. I have a few DPs that are supposed to like my climate, and they are teaching me a thing or two about roses that teas and chinas can't, not least that knowing a little about one class of rose doesn't make me a rose expert. I did so want to grow several Hybrid Musks, but they just didn't like my garden/climate. On the other hand I dug up Penelope long before I knew she would not be good here. All the praise that gets heaped on that rose was lost on me with its teensy, blah (imho) white flowers and deadly prickles out the wazoo. I have Mary Guthrie, an Alister Clark hot pink single, that so far is a scaggly, ungraceful bush that defoliates some in summer that I was going to take out until I saw her November flush. Wow! Those nearly 3" flowers blew me away, so she will move to a less prime spot this winter. If I had refused to try a single, I would have missed out on this beauty. There are several teas that are less double than I like that will never live in my garden. They leave me cold and there's no room anyway. So just like to-ma-to and to-mah-to, we have different and sometimes stubborn tastes, but it pays big-time once in a while to venture outside our comfort zone. Sometimes we just don't know what will thrill our heart until we get thrilled.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

I have grown a lot of different classes but not the winter tender ones...yet. I like to experiment so I'm looking at trying some Teas this year. As for HPs and Damasks I have Reaine des Violettes and Rose de Rescht, both of whom I love, but you can't really say you can see stamens on them. At least not very much or very often. But they're both lovely and they smell divine! The few once bloomers I have are all my own seedlings so I'm partial to them and would never part with them. But I don't purchase them because our season is so short as it is that I want as much bloom as often as I can get it! Otherwise, I'm open to growing just about any rose. I've never really found a bloom style I didn't care for. Or a color either for that matter. I think they all have their own charm and beauty no matter what they look like. And variety is the spice of life!

Seil, the trick is to select the arctic hardy, once bloomers whose flowering season closely matches the length of your season. I'd actually expect those to not only present you with fewer hardiness issues, but much less disease as they'd be matched well with your climate. Not to suggest you shouldn't experiment and explore. Far from it! Kim

We had a Striped Moss in the Sacramento cemetery that finally produced one bloom after an exceptionally cold winter - then died!

Then, I went to Ohio to the Garden of Roses of Legends and Romance and saw how mosses and damasks and rugosas and gallicas would look on mature plants grown with the right conditions. Why bother in Sacramento, I wondered, and that's my position still.

I'm not very interested in pushing the zone on any of my plants. If it can't stand the heat, or the frost, it needs to stay out of my garden. I think that means that I'm not really much of a gardener, but I accept that. Life's too short to be coddling unhappy plants.

Now, are there some roses that I don't like for aesthetic reasons, not because they are ill-suited for my climate or my patience? Hybrid Teas. I don't like the stiff-caned plants and the pointed buds are booorrrriiiinnnngggg.
Anita

And I agree with Anita 100%.
Grow roses that you like, but select among those the roses that want to grow where you are -- and you will have a happy garden.

The roses should make you happy.
They shouldn't be an unending struggle.

Jeri

I've tried all classes and find there are roses I like in just about all of them. Even hybrid musks which generally leave me cold -- well, there's the magnificent Buff Beauty. I'm not a species rose fan but then there is Rosa moschata. Who could ask for more?

I do adore the deliciously fragrant once blooming old garden roses of Europe -- gallicas, damasks, albas, centifolias, moss roses, all so lovely and exploding into bloom like fireworks! Probably they are my true favorites. They are not at their best here, but a few of them do okay. I grow a few. It would break my heart to devote more space to them, though. I do like the HPs because they resemble the OB OGRs and are willing to forego the winter chill, and even repeat! But they struggle here with diseases, most notably rust.

If I were to list my dozen favorite roses the list would look wildly random. They come from classes scattered all across the rose spectrum. They only thing they have in common is that in some fashion they appeal to my senses.

Rosefolly

I guess I look at it differently. I don't think of pushing the envelope as added work but more experimentation and a learning/growth experience. Yes, I often have roses that just don't make it but that's how I learn what will. I sometimes mourn the loss of a rose that was particularly lovely all summer but didn't come back the next spring. So then I know that's one that isn't for here and it opens up a spot for me to try something new. That keeps my garden ever changing, new and interesting for me too!

Rosefolly (Paula, I can't help calling you by name) -
I wonder if you spent time year-round with the species if your feelings about them would change. In the late fall and winter their foliage and hips are so beautiful. Some of the flowers are really exquisite, too. I need to take a photo essay of just the cemetery species right now. They take my breath away.

The cemetery doesn't have R. moyesii and I covet it madly. Those urn-shaped hips thrill me, for some reason, and the bright flowers of 'Geranium' in the English borders were so striking!

I don't have room at home for many species, though, and am so lucky to have the cemetery nearby to enjoy and observe big roses. At home, I have R. glauca and a way-too-big eglantine (is there any other kind?).

By the way, I do grow one once-blooming OGR at home. Crested Moss (Chapeau de Napoleon) does surprisingly well for me. I have it trained up a tripod and over an arch and get six weeks of incredibly fragrant flowers, as the buds in the flower clusters open one at a time. I try to ignore the fact that I've seen it with much bigger flowers in other parts of the world.
Anita

Anita, call me either Paula or Rosefolly, both are fine. I like the name my mother picked out for me and I also like the name I chose for these forums.

The thing with species is that for most of them, the beauty is subtle and nuanced. I like roses to whack me over the head and saw, "Pay attention, I'm glorious!" I suspect I would take greater pleasure from a photo essay on species roses than from the real thing. In any case, I am trying to squeeze enough real estate out of my fenced area to put in a bed of teas I am slowly collecting. It's going to require terracing to make even that happen, so at this time I do not plan to add any species roses. But never say never. At one time I was done, completely done, with tea roses! Now I am trying again.

As for the OB-OGRs, I've had a few that do well. Madame Plantier (an alba/noisette hybrid) is growing on a structure by my chimney and it is thriving. Gallicas tend to decline after a few years, but right now I have two that are growing forwards, not backwards, Tuscany Superb and La Belle Sultane. The alba Felicite Parmentier was doing very well for me, then suddenly declined. I suspect gopher damage, and have moved the remnants of it to a new and protected spot. I'll know soon if it comes back or not. I'm trying a couple other albas but the jury is still out. Autumn Damask was thriving for about ten years, then died. I'd blame the gophers on that one, too, except that it started to decline a couple years before it failed. My other damasks, albas, gallicas and one centifolia (about a dozen in all), all struggle. You can see I am earnest in my attempts to grow them, but as they fail, I will not replace them with more.

Rosefolly

I'd rather see something ordinary and climate-appropriate really thrive, than something exotic limp along. It seems a cruelty, like keeping a dog in a cage. :( The garden is more than just space, the climate is as much a part of garden as the soil.

It's different when your season is only 4 months long (maybe 5 if the weather is weird) than it is if you have an all year long season. Believe me, you try to pack as much punch into those short and fast flowing 4 months as you can. Most roses planted in April will usually bloom by mid-June and put on a wonderful show even in their first year. But a lot of OGRs, once bloomers in particular, need years to build up enough to give you any kind of bloom, let alone a big one. Space is precious too and a lot of these roses need lots of room. So I guess that's why I have a limited number of them. I don't want big areas where there won't be any blooms for 3 to 5 years when I can plant 2 or 3 smaller repeaters in that same space that will bloom right away. It's a different and climate related mind set. If I had my dream garden I'd have treeless acrage somewhere on the zone 7/8 border where I could grow just about any rose...and I would!

I have always thought that it is reasonable to plant 5%-10% of your roses in OB-OGRs, that is of course, if the gardener is interested in them. Ramblers would count since most of them are once blooming, or very nearly so.

I agree with Seil that zone 7b into 8 is ideal. It would allow a gardener to grow every class of roses, from those that need a chill period to those that cannot tolerate sustained hard frost. Let's make the soil neutral to mildly acid while we're at it. But as for me, I would not want the space to be treeless. My father passed along to me his love of trees. I would want some trees there as well.

Rosefolly

yep, it is hard to kill a rose in the UK - they can and will limp along with the most appalling neglect.
Bellegallica, I have never grown Malmaison carnations - they are gorgeously fragrant but a lot of stopping and staking, faffing and temperature control. Even so, a couple of garden writers are predicting a revival...but not in my garden. I do, however, grow the ordinary clove pinks (Thompson and Morgan sell a good deep red seed strain called Fenbow something). I grow more of the smaller (and easier) alpine pinks - maiden pink and cheddar pink and various hybrids such as D.allwoodii and I couldn't imagine not growing sweet william (D.barbatus). Lovely plants, great foliage, easy to propagate.