ellen, can you recommend an organic potting soil that is readily available and reasonably priced? I am having trouble finding one.

Other than using MG potting soil to WS my seeds, I garden completely organically, and do indeed pay close attention to building up my soil. I think many of us here do also, and I also think that many of us try to be good stewards of the earth, so you may be preaching to the choir, lol!

But seriously, if you can recommend an organic alternative to MG potting soil, I for one would be very happy to give it a try. As I said, I've been trying to find one locally, for a good price, but haven't had any luck yet.

Thanks,
Dee

Forgot to add -

I've been seeing ads for organic MG here on the forums. Maybe I should check out a bag of it if I can find one, and read the ingredients. If it is indeed truly organic, and has the same quality as their regular potting soil, my dilemma in using a non-organic mix for seeds may be solved.

Has anyone tried or seen this organic MG yet?

:)
Dee

Okay, one last thing! Sorry - I should have thought out my response more thoroughly before posting.

Anyway, I've got to add that as far as environmental issues are concerned, I'm much more concerned about the (IMHO) excessive use by WSers of plastic bags, than I am about them using MG. I think all that plastic going to the landfills is a bigger environmental issue than using MG to start seeds with.

Okay, I'll give someone else a chance to get in on this thread, lol!

:)
Dee

Re: plastic bags. I save and reuse my wintersowing ziplocks; They are quite sturdy, take virtually no room to store and last years and years. -I have yet to throw one out.

Hi, Dee,
I spent a lot of time online trying to find a good mix and from what I found, Pro-mix is very good. However, I can't find that locally. [is available on-line] I did get some very good soil from my retail gardener, he sold me a big bag for only $4.00, I don't know where he gets his, or what brand it is.

So that is something I am still looking for. I am so frustrated, because in the big garden centers, I couldn't even find perlite without MG in it, and I am not buying anything with MG in it.

This is a link to another garden forum, with a discussion of soil, which may be informative.
As far as I can discover, 'Organic' MG is in no way organic. Again, if you go to the forum I link to, you can do a search and find people's opinions about 'Organic' MG [not very good!]

best,
ellen
PS - if you go to the recommended forum, and want to search - do *not* use the search box to the upper right, instead go to tab marked "find" and search there.

Here is a link that might be useful: soil

Dee,
A lot of the plastic bags I use are ones that are taken off of things we've purchased. I save them up along with the milk jugs. The higher quality ones I'm able to be reused for the following year. Instead of putting large holes in the bags this time of year to air out seedlings, I just open up the bag. That way, I can use the bag next year without any alterations.
I do use some of the clear garbage bags, but I try not to. I need those to use for, well, garbage...lol.
All those that are un-reusable get rinsed and put into the recycling bins that get picked up weekly.

Ellen,
You know, I just found out a couple days ago that those fertilizers you mention (like Osmocote) are not so good for long-term life of the soil.
I usually break out with the fish emulsion in the late spring, summer, when the plants are larger and we get less rain. Rather than buy another container of Osmocote, when this one runs out, I will figure out an alternative for next year. (I put a teaspoon of Osmocote under a layer of soil under my seedlings when I transplant).
I suppose I could always save eggshells through the winter (my husband will love that. We already have a bucket of coffee grounds I've been filling up all winter). But if it makes the land and its creatures happy, I'll be happy :-)
Thanks for sharing this, Ellen. I learned something else today.

Linda

In regards to plastics and styrofoam and such, most, if not all, can be reused and/or recycled and it's simply up to us to take the initiative and make the proper decision. Even after using 2 liter pop bottles - sometimes 300 in a winter sowing season - I still take the initiative to place my mangled and cut-up bottles in the recycling bag. The styro cups get used again and again until they are ready for the recycling bag as well, etc.

As per potting soil and the soil we generally use to winter sow our seeds, there is one simple solution. At the end of the season when you are cleaning out the pots and putting them away for the next season, just toss the contents in the compost pile and mix it around a bit. In the end, all the leaves, kitchen waste, etc., will all make it lead back to compost which you can amend your gardens with the next season.

I am a firm believer in the thought that if you feed the soil and it's microherd, you feed the plant and in the end your gardens will be better able to defend itself against pests and disease. Having actively composted for the last 5 years and gone completely organic in the gardens surrounding our home, I have seen the results.

But on my deck and veranda I have containers and I have yet to be able to place 'organic' soil in them and keep plants going for a full season. I use Promix and a brand called Super Soil and at times do add some synthetic fertilizers. Until someone can provide me with an option that will retain moisture and feed these containerized plants so I get what I want, then I will continue to do so.

One should also consider that it is doubtful that a worm would like to live in those containers. Confined to such a small area, would the worm and microbe population not outgrow itself?

There are many things to consider... I'd be interested in hearing from our fellow winter sowers who make gardens thrive on balconies - PVick, what do you do? I know if I was in her shoes, I'd still want to garden and if synthetic fertilizers provide the means to an end in such a situation, then so be it. We are, after all, providing food for the creatures which rely on pollen, nectar, etc. in these containers, so all is not lost...

Like Tiffy, I use organic practices in my soil, and I compost. But I doubt there's much of a microherd or worms in containers to worry about so I think the miracle grow potting soil is OK to use. When I can find it I will use Pro-Mix (just got a new compressed bale at Home Depot), otherwise I use miracle grow. But I haven't used chemical fertilizers in my beds for several years. I even talked my husband into trying an organic lawn service this year. I hope this guy does well so my husband doesn't want the chemicals back for his perfect lawn.

Karen

I found a great potting soil at the greenhouse at our local university. They sell the same product they use - no fertilizer. I paid $12 for a 2.8 bag. I can buy it year around so I no longer have to stock pile it.

Hmm, I *was* under the impression that ProMix was organic, but last fall I was told at the local feed & grain/garden center that it is NOT organic. So which is it? Can someone tell me for sure? I can find it locally, so if it is indeed organic, I'm there!

Thanks for that link, ellen. I'll check it out when I have a bit more time.

I'm glad to see that some of you reuse your plastic bags. I also recycle my mangled-up milk jugs and soda bottles, even the little pieces I cut off when I vent my bottles.

Tiffy, perhaps in your area there are options for recycling styrofoam, (which is great!) but it is difficult to find places around here that recycle them. There have been a few threads on the Going Green forum and others about trying to find somewhere to recycle them, and how difficult that search is. Maybe I need to look a little harder. :)

Dee

Lowes carries organic potting soil here. It is called Jungle Grow, however, you can't always get all soil everywhere. It is pretty good stuff, although I prefer to have the type with no nutrients and add it myself. Jungle grow is less expensive than Miracle Grow.
If you can't find the product you need, begin requesting it from your local stores.
I teach organic gardening at our local Ace Hardware store, and they have begun stocking anything I have asked for - and they are selling it too!

GGG

There's such a thing as over and improper usage. That goes with any fertilizer..organic or otherwise! I for one do use MG potting soil and from time to time I will feed certain plants with MG 15-30-15. I do however stay away from all other chemicals and I do compost. I've yet to find my soil depleted or the need to take out the guns for pest or disease problems that couldn't be solved by nature or a little hand picking/trapping and so on. I have worms like no tomorrow and a healthy population of beneficials. There are ALOT of other practices (besides the use of fertilizers) people can do to ruin any good soil.
But hey, that's just my opinion :D

Vera

sorry, somewhat ot

lblack61- what are egg shells used for? I've never heard of them being used in the garden, and I always have alot. (I'm that person that puts the empty shell back in the carton)

Kek,

Plants need calcium too. Just google 'Calcium and plants' and you'll find a wealth of info about how they use it. :O)

Kek,
My mom used to keep eggshells in a jar with water. It stunk to high heaven after hanging around for so long, but it made all her indoor plants really really green and healthy. So I figure the protein and whatever else in the eggshell and its inner lining must've done it.
I figure eggshells might be something easy to compost in the winter, just outside the door on the porch. I couldn't handle that smell in my house!

Linda

If my memory serves me correctly, ProMix is not "organic" because of the wetting agent used. It is close enough for me. I do use some fertilizers like Osmocote and I have used several bags of MiracleGro for wintersowing and containers. I am a mostly organic gardener, but I don't think it is as big of a deal in containers.

I did purchase a bag of Garden Pro brand "Professional Potting Mix" from Home Depot to give it a try. It has too many large chunks of wood for my taste, but it claims to be fortified with composted manure. I also purchased a bag of Plant-tone fertilizer. It looks like really good stuff with a little of all the popular organic fertilizers. ProMix with Plant-tone looks like a good combination.

I am a little sick of the stack after stack of fertilizers, herbicides, insecticides and the like. I see that the big boxes now stock mulch with termite control and weed control bundled in them. Yuck! I do take a little hope in that I now see more products labeled "organic" there.

- Brent

Here is a link that might be useful: Plant-tone Info

I have a bag of the Organic Choice Miracle Gro potting mix here - I can't tell you how I like it yet, the bag is unopened. Home Depot, which does not carry ProMix in this area.

Ingredients (from the label) - "This product is formulated from 50-55% composted bark, Canadian sphagnum peat moss, pasteurized poultry litter and an organic wetting agent."

This is a little off the subject but it may help a lot of you save some money when it comes to WSing. I went with what Trudi said on her website and used a regular soil to WS all my plants in, nothing fancy like potting soil. My soil is from an area I'm about to plant and it consists of 1 part topsoil, 1/2 part cow manure and 1/3 part black satin mulch. This blend has worked great with my plants & I have 70 to 90% sprouts. Best yet it is about 1/4 the price of potting soil. I dont use the plastic bags with my jugs like a lot of people and it doesnÂt seem to make a difference. Finally I got most of my jugs from a recycle place because I feel like I'm recycling them much better than they are.

I've been gardening now in my home for 27 years and can only go by my experience, but I don't have problems with MG potting mix causing any problems in my gardens.

When first dug, as there where no gardens anywhere on the acre of land we purchased with our home, I added plenty of peat, humous and top soil to the gardens. Kept turning them over and over and planted a few annuals the first year.

As my gardens expanded to many different ones, I would put a handful of MG potting mix in the hole when the seedlings went in the ground. I always fertilized with MG fertilizer.

My container pots got miracle grow potting mix in them and at the end of the season, the soil went into a compost area for next season. In the spring it was loaded with worms etc. I would mix the compost and MG soil in the containers and use the MG potting mix when planting in the gardens and the MG fertilizer for the plants.

All of my flower and veggie beds are covered with bark mulch purchased by cubic yards from a local nursery and it decays over time into the soil.

4 years ago, I started WS seeds and used MG potting mix in all my containers to start the seeds and have had at least 90% germination every year. What ever didn't germinate went into a "let's see what happens" bed and some seeds have germinated in the area. I just let mother nature water them and see what happens. As I have dug out these seedlings do transplant I have found many, many earth worms in the soil there that is mostly sand and MG potting mix.

This past fall, I wasn't in the best of health as I was emptying my containers of soil for the winter and decided to just dump the soil in left over plastic bags that had held the many cubic feet of MG potting mix I had purchased.
I left the soil in the bags in the back of the house all winter. They where covered in snow, rained on, sleet, ice etc. Typical stuff for winter in New England.
I hoped that the sun and heat within the bags would make a compost that was fairly good to use.

Well, Saturday I decided to check the soil and see what had happened to it. Hubby dumped one of the bags that was almost full, making it about 2 cubic feet of soil, into a lawn cart. It smelled rich and much like a compost and it was full of earth worms. At least 30 of them in that one bag.

Based on what I found in just 1 bag out of 4 of them, I fail to see how the MG soil is such a problem to the ground and gardens that we have.

If, as you say, the MG potting mix would deplete the soil of good nutrients and not good for the soil, how is it that I have a bags of it left outside and they are full of earthworms, smells like compost and looks rich and healthy.

I have had my soil tested many times in the areas of my gardens and the soil has always been good for my plants and that's with use of MG fertilizer.

Now my lawns are another story, but I just keep digging up more and more of it as I think beautiful green lawns are a waste of time and money. New England weather does not produce perfect green lawns unless lots of chemical stuff and water is used. I prefer to have beautiful gardens instead.

The only pesticide I have ever used is roundup on poison ivy and I don't like to use it but have no choice. My daughter is anaphylactly allergic to the stuff and when she was young, almost died twice from contact with it.

My gardens are full of healthy beneficial insects, butterflies, birds etc.

The only insects I gave up on dealing with is the red lily leaf beatle. When that problem became an hourly pick off the things, I pulled out all my lilies and got rid of them.
Too many other beautiful plants to put in the ground without dealing with them.

I recycle everything we possibly can, separating for the recycle pick up.

For WS, we use only the recylces that are deep enough. My plastic bags are on their 4th year of use and still appear to be able to reuse another year, as are most of my containers. The ones we can't use, will go in the recycle bin.
I use styrofoam cups for plant swaps and ask that the cups be returned for use in follow up years and they have been.
The ones I use for starting seeds in, are in their 4th year of use right now and still in good shape for another year. When they can't be used anymore for seeds, I will break them up and use them in the bottom of containers for drainage.

Personally, I think there are many more concerns for our gardens than he worry about MG soil.

Bees disappeared from my gardens until the neighbors moved. They had to have a perfect lawn and the chemicals the lawn company used kept the bees away. Now they are gone and the insects are back.

The attitude the public has "a little bit is good so a lot is better", is the dangerous thing. The products that are sold to the public and used for everything under the sun are a much bigger concern.

The aim for a perfect lawn and all Scotts perfect lawn method is far more serious than MG soil problems, if they exist.

It's improper use of chemicals that is the real problem.

Just wish they could come up with a way to eradicate the misquito. that one serves no purpose and their bite can kill people. Like a student in high school that was a student of my daughter. That scares me a lot. Not MG potting mix.

Fran

For those of us whose concern for the earth extends beyonds the borders of our gardens consider that -
water soluble "fertilizers" contribute to the poisoning of our drinking water. Drinking water is known to contain traces of glyphosates, nitrates, phosphates, organophosphate poisons, lots of things that should not be there and it is getting worse every year as we dump more of these poisons on this earth.

Unfortunately what a person uses on their property does not stay on their property. It enters the waterways and has effects far and wide.

The run-off from pesticides and fertilizers has been linked to the disappearance of frogs.

ellen

For those interested, there is a link below to a thread on the organic gardening forum about potting soil/mix. I do not normally visit that forum, but I figured I would drop in and look around.

Here is a quote from a post by marylandmojo:

"ProMix, Premier ProMix, etc., were never allowable to organic/certified organic growers, because they all contain a synthetic wetting agent. Most still do, but a few years ago (2004, I believe) Pro Mix created a potting mix for organic growers called Pro Mix Ultimate Organic Mix, that is OMRI listed."

- Brent

Ellen,

I agree with your general sentiments here, but your self-righteous and condescending tone ("those of us whose concern for the earth...") does nothing to bolster your case. As far as I'm concerned, it only deligitimizes it. Maybe if you eased up a bit, more people would be sympathetic to your cause.

That said, I used miracle-gro in my first garden, 3 years ago. Since then, I've gone completely organic and have not had quite the the same wonderful results I did in my first season. I live in a solid block of apartment buildings in Brooklyn, so composting is difficult (although I am doing it), and I don't have the excess income to spend on expensive conditioners, top soils, or organic fertilizers. I do hope, (unpalatable tone aside) Ellen, that you are right about building up the soil over the years and that someday my blossoms and vegetables are as abundant and delicious as they were when I did use the MG.

I must say that I'm still on the fence about the use of MG because I have yet to hear of a trustworthy, scientific source of data concerning its harmful longterm effects. If anyone can direct me to such a source, I'd greatly appreciate it (and I will not go back to MG!).

-CHOWZDOWN

I guess you haven't heard huh?
Manures can ALSO leach into and pollute/contaminate groundwater!

I'll let you do the research.

Vera

Gosh if we earth lovers listened to everyones opinion,we would stop using anything almost,meat,eggs,this and that causes cancer,high colesterol.etc.I for one use what works for me to make my world as pleasant as I can.I have a mind,an opinion just like everyone else,But,I don't try to choke my ways on anyone.I may get on here and tell someone a new something I've learned or whatever,and in the end,what difference does it make.If you want to use miracle gro mix-then use it.I do and I am not going to change for Ellen,Sue John or whoever unless I want to.I compost.I recycle.I am not into alot of fertilizers,etc,But if I needed them or wanted them,I would use them.Organic is good.My neighbor sells organic veges that I personally have seen cats and dogs piss on.I don't buy her veges but alot of people do.Life is life.Lets live it the best we can and get off the soap box trying to educate others to your beliefs.I could say more here but I won't.But enough is enough.Now,lets be friends,kiss and make up and stop griping about dang miracle gro.I love the stuff.
moonphase

I have a photo of myself (one year old) sitting on a quilt in the front yard of the first house that I can remember. In the background, there's a milkman coming down the road in his horse-drawn dairy wagon.
I asked my mom years later.."What about the horse poop..who cleaned it up?" She replied that as soon as an 'offering' was available, people would come running out with shovels, and use it for their roses. People were quite competitive about it.
If we had horse-drawn milkmen again, I wouldn't use MG. Anybody remember the iceman, and the breadman and the vegetable man? (dating meself)