Good move, Suzy. When the pleasures of a veg supper have passed on, there are fragrant memories yet to be made of which will endure through the long snowy cold.

Just bear in mind that, when all is said and done, roses, and most especially species/"wild" roses, are BRIARS.

Ha yes, briars! The horrendous digging out rampant blackberries, when I took on the allotment, is still raw in my memory. I expect there will be times ahead when I curse my idiocy. I have taken one small step towards sanity, by tucking fleece around the roses in a 1.2m diameter circle - this is terrific stuff - a by-product of our sheep farming industry, used for insulation and lagging. My sincere hope is to remove the nightmare weeding around the base of thorny roses without resorting to either black plastic or old carpets, and lasting longer than cardboard. If all fails, the roses are tough enough to survive the annual invasion of meadow grasses and thistles.

Existing perennial weeds may come up through that from below. Even black plastic is defeated any time there is a hole made in it. All mulches or soil coverings are defeated as soon as soil is spilled on them and left in place, or an organic mulch placed over them decomposes enough to support plant growth. In commercial container production operations weeds pulled out of pots and thrown or spilled onto soil coverings often continue growing in their little island of potting soil.

True, Bboy, but the weeds which do germinate in the mulch have much weaker roots. Also, even if it only prevents the majority of weeds for a season, the roses (or other perennials) have a chance to establish without intense competition. I have used plastic under gravel in a gravel garden and although it is not perfect, I get enough protection from travelling couch rhizomes and bindweed to counter the never-ending resevoir of weeds on a public allotment where you are forced to garden inches away from an adjoining weed pit. Having lost entire lavender hedges to grass invasion, I learned the value of using sheet mulches (I never have the depth of compost needed for loose mulches) in between fruit bushes and ornamental shrubs. Of course, there are some other disadvantages such as the problems of using bulbs or not being able to encourage self-seeding, but, on the whole, I do get some respite from the year round weeding requirements. Also, I got given 3 rolls of this stuff (wool fleece)for free and it is taking up far too much room in my shed.

Ooh, campanula, how'd you know that 'vegetable failure' is my middle name?? So sorry for you, but one closed door opens another, hopefully.

Sherry

I have moved in the other direction and extended my vegetable garden. It is still ridiculously small but productive because of imported top soil. I haven't removed any roses to make room for it, that would be going too far.

Vegetable growing is absolutely huge here in the UK - for the first time ever, vegetable seeds are outselling flower seeds. I have to wonder if I am not just being contrary. Permaculture is also growing and, in many ways, seems like an ideal gardening method. Without going into detail, the emphasis is more on permanent plantings, utilising all available sources. So, fruit, nuts, veg such as asparagus, perennial broccoli, wild garlic, smyrnium, bittercress, fungi and so on, are grown instead of concentrating on annual digging, planting and harvesting, which can have ominous effects on soil structure. The idea of a forest garden sounds thrilling. Unfortunately, to do this well, you have to be quite an adventurous eater (and a jolly good cook). And this, of course, is where the idea runs aground since I had never even seen a courgette (zucchini) till I was in my 20s. When I first tried to cook an aubergine, I peeled it and cut it into chips (fries) - disaster. Vegetables, essentially, consisted of peas and lettuce (which we generally assumed was a garnish). In fact, if a meal did not contain pie and a vast heap of potatoes, to a northerner, anything else would be a 'snack'.
As you may have guessed, I will mourn the loss of potatoes more than anything else....but hey, we have lots of fruit for jam_ another northern staple.

I would not mind growing some vegetables, but since I have rather small garden, there is just no space for it to be worth bothering (and it makes back yard to look kind of boring).

It is a bit funny, that "grow your own" has completely different meaning here is NL - weed growing for home use. :))))

Some people with bigger gardens sometimes have a bed or two of some vegetables, but generally it is not that popular here (biological veggies in markets and shops however are very popular). Most like what I call instant gardening - just buy trays of plants in the warm season, when they are about to start blooming and fling them out in late autumn. Nobody bothers with seedlings these days it seems, they just buy already ready plant from garden center (or even local super market as they sell trays in planting season).

Elemire, you have hundreds of roses - how small can your garden be? Interesting how different attitudes exist side by side - I truly want to scream every time I hear 'grow your own'. Vegetable plug plants have taken over from petunias and lobelia, even in supermarkets (although you would have to be desperate to consider buying any of those plants after a couple of days sitting in overheated stores, ignored by all). Of course, it is a massive con. I can see why people would buy half-hardy bedding plants such as aforementioned petunias - they can be a bit tricky from seed and need a fair bit of light and heat to get going...but lettuce! spring onions! The idea of the potager, growing vegetables and flowers and herbs together, to look decorative and have a useful function, has been pushed mercilessly. Everywhere, we see little 'raised bed' kits (just lengths of timber and a few stakes for ridiculous prices) while folk are trying to create some long-lost bucolic simple life, return to nature scenario. More than once, I have seen lettuces laid out like bedding plants, then unharvested because it would mean leaving unsightly gaps. The truth is, to grow vegetables well, they do need to be apart from long-term ornamentals and they do look quite dull for most of the year. This is why vegetable gardens were often relegated to some far corner of an estate. I do intend to carry on growing some vegetables but only those which we eat, are reliable, can be stored and are relatively trouble-free. So, no more brassicas, no more french beans or sweetcorn (I fail to grow this successionally so we always end up with 3 dozen corn plants, all ready at the same time) no more weird and wonderful stuff (okra, asparagus peas, scorzonera and salsify, radicchio, aubergines or oriental greens)No more ground-swallowing potatoes apart from a few earlies. Fruit, and plenty of it, from now on....and a lot more roses.

I am not a serious veggie grower, I grow only four kinds of early potatoes in small amounts to last during the summer, wax beans and sugar peas (snow peas), lettuce and Swiss chard because they are best fresh and we use them. Nothing fancy. Sugar peas on sale in Sweden are all from Africa and ridiculously expensive. The perennials we grow are asparagus, rhubarb, sorrel and Jerusalem artichokes. One reason we grow veggies is to teach the grandchildren where potatoes and other vegetables come from. Digging up potatoes is a major treat for smaller guests.

I tossed quite a few of the worst weeds into the slacker's overrun plot next door.

Hmmmm...bad Karma? If slacker don't weed, won't all the seeds blow back into...your plot?

Two years ago I paid for labor and materials to have four big raised beds built and fenced away from the chickens. They are really beautiful -- 3' deep X 3' wide X 8' long -- with drip irrigation.

I've got artichokes, chard, rhubarb, garlic, onions, strawberries, broccoli growing....

But today I converted one of them to a nursery for 10 brand newly arrived Gallicas.....

My mantra goes something like this: "I will always buy food; I will never buy flowers :-)))"

Susan - Right on! High five, sistah. We can chant in unison.

Ah Hoovb yep, I know my karma is probably rubbish but this crew have been in absentia for 7 years! when there is a waiting list of over 300 people and an overwrought, underfunded city council failing to re-allocate. I have considered squatting but the problem of denying someone (like me), desperate for a chance to get on and do some serious gardening, still remains. But, ya know, I am just returning what's theirs...and at least they are out of the ground, therefore dying.

Elemire, you have hundreds of roses - how small can your garden be?

It is not hundreds, it is 117 to be precise, and half of them are moderns and HTs, which do not take that a lot of space (especially those that are 1 stick lost in between other plants). Small is something around 1/10 acre, part of it taken by the shed and in the North side. ;) I still manage to grow beans, peas, pumpkins, some tomato and other stuff like herbs, etc. I really should get asparagus some day also, as well as sprouts (actually, in the past here was a farmland where farmer grew sprouts). :) We eat quite a bit of veggies really, but to be self supporting we really would need more land and to be both unemployed, as it is full time job really to manage large veggie patch.

But I agree that veggies are best grown in straight beds, without mixing them with pretty. Or rather there can be pretty, but in between the beds.