Thank you, Kim..and when you have sucess, it must be so rewarding.

You're welcome! And, yes it IS rewarding when there is success. There can be tremendous variation in vigor between sibling seedlings. Would you believe these two seedlings resulted from the same two parents, from seeds planted at the same time?

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Both are almost one year old at this point. If a seedling doesn't generate a decent root system, it very likely will never be a decent own root plant, though it might be a decent (or better) budded one. But, I don't select seedlings for how they might grow budded. I want decent own root plants. So, I threw away several hundred seedlings when I transplanted this years crop from my seed tables. Anything which wasn't a decent, vigorous plant with a good root system under it got shredded for mulch. That cut the number to carry over past their first year to about a tenth of the original quantity. Kim

If you've never tried growing roses from seeds I highly recommend doing it. It's an amazing learning experience about roses and is so easy, inexpensive and fun to do! And it's great therapy during the winter for rose starved folk, lol. Kim, of course, is quite the expert at it but if you're interested I can email you a paper I wrote for my rose society on how I do mine. It's so simple anyone can do it. PM me your email address if you'd like me to send it.

OK, Kim, you made me really work for this one, lol! Every one of those spots had to be colored separately.
It's not my photo! I got it off the web. It's Paul Barden's. So thank you Paul and I hope you're not offended. If so, my sincere apologies.

Here again I think the fewer petals and the lighter color really does help make it look more appealing and natural. Maybe it's just the HT form that doesn't seem to lend itself well to the blue?

A blue Kim Rupert!

Thanks, Seil! THAT I would buy! I love "my" rose, but that is what it really should have been! Kim

Di, Kim, and all, if I could be assured about the patent on Blue Bayou, I would consider sending out a few cuttings. I noticed on HMF that one of BB's names is Blue Bajou and it is a registered trademark (the "R" with a little circle around it). This isn't the same as a patent, but it would seem that a trademarked rose would be patented, too. If BB isn't patented, then I would need some explicit instructions on how to send a cutting--I have a few questions, and I'm a rank amateur at this!!
I bought my BB around 2007 from Hortico on a whim to fill out an order since it wouldn't increase the postage, if I remember correctly. I didn't know a thing about it. The next year, I think Palatine and Pickering were selling it, and Heirloom in the U.S., so I thought it would start showing up all over, but instead it virtually disappeared. I've been puzzled ever since. Why would Kordes do something like this? Kim, can you enlighten us? Diane

Hi Diane, I Googled Blue Bayou and its breeder's code name and came up with no patent information. Trademarking the name is usually what you do instead of patenting the variety. Do you remember all the Austin roses widely spread by Hortico in the early days, prior to Austin having contracts, patents and any "official distribution" in the North American continent? They're the trade marked varieties which have to be offered under their breeder's code names instead of their fancy or variety names. Hortico has consistently brought European varieties in and spread them across North America before their creators could patent them. Hence the trade marked names. AUSblush couldn't be patented because Hortico spread it around prior to Austin applying for patent protection, so he trade marked the name, Heritage, so anyone could offer the rose. They just couldn't call it Heritage unless they paid Austin for the right to use that name. As AUSblush, it could be propagated and sold all over without any restrictions or payments owed to Austin. All of the Austin roses Vintage offered as their AUS breeder's code names are some of the ones Hortico literally cheated Austin out of the possibilities of patenting and collecting royalties on. Virtually every Austin rose sold in Canada and the US prior to Austin's arrival here were sold without permission, preventing Austin from receiving anything for his efforts.

It appears Blue Bayou is the same situation. Hortico brought it into Canada and began distributing it across the continent without permission or contract, not paying any royalties to Kordes for the "right". More than likely, Blue Bajou is the original name, under which the rose began earning its reputation, so in order to restrict it and collect royalties on it, Kordes trade marked that name. Otherwise, either a new name (Blue Bayou) would have to be generated or you would have had to have purchased it as KORkultop. You can imagine how obscure the rose would have remained under KORkultop.

Kordes now has an American representative. I don't know if they have attempted to restrict the rose or not, nor set any efforts in motion to obtain and collect royalties on its sale, but that is possible. Though there isn't much to be done legally due to the time the rose has been commercially available here (trade marking the name is the farthest they can really legally go at this point), but there is always the pressure of, "if you want any of our other newer, patented roses, you will NOT sell this one, or you WILL pay us for each plant sold, even without a patent". Something along those lines might be what's happened, or it could just be production issues. Who can really tell for sure? The bottom line is, I can not find any proof that it has been patented (and the evidence strongly supports it isn't), so sharing cuttings shouldn't be illegal. I'll email you directly with information about shipping cuttings to keep this response from being REALLY overly long. Kim

I've always wanted a "blue" rose. I think it would be beautiful in any shade, even a turquoise blue! Seil I love your creations! That blue EYECONIC LEMONADE is really cool! I'd buy that one for sure!

I have a lot of lavender/purple roses that I think look more "blue" than lavender or purple.

I mean... look at this one. This is the natural color of this rose in the early stages. Imagine crossing it with another blue-ish rose. Maybe we could creat some blu-er roses.

BLUE FOR YOU
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Kim, thank you so much for enlightening me about this convoluted issue (my opinion of Hortico has plummeted as a result). All my earliest Austin roses were purchased from the old J&P in the 90s when those roses first came out, and I was totally unaware of this whole thing. I didn't know anything about Hortico until 2007 when I was trying to purchase the Tantau rose, Bernstein-Rose, which it sold, and there was a photo of Blue Bayou tempting me on their website, so I bought it, too.

Last year, when I asked the owners of Palatine if they could sell the recent lines of Tantau roses I so crave, they said Tantau had no legal representation in North America, so there were legal issues involved. At least Palatine's owners were honest about Tantau, and weren't trying to sell Tantau's roses under the radar like Hortico did with Austin and Kordes roses. However, I'm still puzzled how Palatine has been able to sell the Tantau rose, Ascot, for the last several years. Of course, Hortico sells Ascot, too, as well as Tea Time, and Augusta Luise. How can they get away with this, and then tell me they can't sell other Tantau roses? It's all such an eye opener for me. Diane

You're welcome, Diane. How Hortico can sell the few newer Tantau roses they have and not the others is probably quite simple. The ones they have were brought in prior to the stricter import restrictions more recently instituted. Now, nothing greater in diameter than 10mm can be imported for fear of importing the Chinese Long Snout Beetle. That limits you to pretty much only importing thin bud wood, which can be rather iffy if not handled properly. That's material of LESS than 1/3" in diameter, INCLUDING the bud union. What they offer now obviously came in prior to the tighter restrictions. You can bet the larger European producers have also tightened their control over exportation of their products. IF Tantau decides it's worth the expense of establishing an American agency, you'll probably see their newer offerings here, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Our current patent laws state once a rose is "publicly introduced", meaning identifiable photos or other identifiable information is publicly released (including on GW, HMF, blogs, etc., as patent agents are quite proficient at Googling for information), the clock begins ticking. You have one year from that date of introduction (introduction of the information, not release of any plants) in which to patent the rose. That's why you aren't going to be seeing any new seedlings which stand any real chance of being patented. Previously, and it may still be the case, I don't know, there is one year from the commercial release of a plant in which to patent it. If a rose has been offered for sale for a year or longer, there is no way for it to be patented. The best to be hoped for is trade marking the name in hopes of recouping some lost revenue as we previously discussed.

All of those earlier Tantau roses are now in the public domain. Anyone can legally sell them without restriction. How "moral" or "ethical" it is depends upon your definitions, but it's entirely "legal". Once Hortico (or anyone else) begins selling an unprotected rose, there is one year for the legal owner of the rose to seek protection and potential damages. If that statute of limitations expires with no action, it's fair game for everyone else. Kim

Whew. Thank you again, Kim. I'm slowly beginning to absorb all this. I did not know how the import restrictions and patent laws had tightened up--I understand why we want to prevent the long snout beetle from entering this country, but I wish the patent laws would be easier on the rose hybridizers.
If American rose enthusiasts would check HMF and see the photos of the newer Tantau roses the Europeans are growing, I know there would be a big market for those roses, making it worth the investment to have an agent over here. I think this line of roses could give David Austin a run for his money (and I'm a fan of Austin roses, for the most part).
Thanks again for taking the time to explain all this. I guess I'm moving to Germany-ha. Diane

You're welcome, again, Diane. I agree with you, Beth, about the turquoise color. I LOVE Tweedia caerulea and would be quite content with a healthy, fragrant floribunda in that shade. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:345555}}

Lots of great info, Kim, thanks!

OK, so I did this one to match the color of your Tweedia caerulea picture but I decided to do a whole bush so we could see what it might look like in the garden. This is my best fragrant flori, Julia Child.

You're welcome Seil. Thank you for the "rosea hydrangeaflora" bush shot! I love it! If hydrangea can be used in colors like this, why not roses? Kim

I'm having fun coloring these! I thought it looked like a hydrangea too, lol!

I played with the programs I have and it was more involved than I wanted to spend time doing. It would be fun seeing Annie Laurie McDowell in a real Robin Egg blue as well as a deep sky blue. Stippled roses like Incredible; April Mooncrest; and any others would also be lovely! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Incredible

I dunno Seil - I wouldn't be rushing out to buy that turquoise plant - especially placed in a real garden setting - it all looked far too plastic, somehow.
I want to see turquoise on kingfisher wings, not flowers.

Grmmmpfff. I just want ALM! Kim, is it really going to be rooted on fortunianana?
and Nana, I second you about Tantau...and I really like the Lens roses too...they seem to be rare in the US.
But there has to be a bottom somewhere, doesn't there...
Or does there? HA!
Susan

I tried doing Incredible in Robin Egg blue and Sky blue but it looked like a splotchy rose that had paint splattered on it so I gave up, but the ones of Annie Laurie McDowell came out well.

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I dunno if it looks exactly like sky blue or robin egg blue since my laptop screen has a hard time distinguishing purples and blues.

This post was edited by Resolute_Noir on Thu, Dec 19, 13 at 2:11

I found another picture of Incredible and decided to do April Mooncrest as well:

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April Mooncrest (April Moonmist?)

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Incredible (Incredibly Refreshing?)

The stippling on Incredible is much harder to notice in cyan imo while the yellow stamens of April Mooncrest contrast well against sky blue petals.

BTW, anyone got a good picture of Hocus Pocus and the Grandiflora Love I can use? I'll try making them blue. :D

You guys are just having too much fun with this! LOL

I got inspired by Seil's blue Eyeconic Lemonade, so I decided to do it's miniature sibling, Eyeconic Pomegranate Lemonade (photo is by Mr. Jim Sproul himself, breeder of these lovely Persica hybrids, not mine):

Annie and April Mooncrest look marvelous! Thank you. I would add both of those permutations to my garden any day. That Pomegranate Lemonade is a definite must! I want it! Thanks! Kim

Nice job, Resolute!

Yes, Beth, we are having fun. If you'd like to see any particular rose in blue, or any other color for that matter, just let us know!

Here's one of Love. I tried to make it a lighter blue than this but there's so much color saturation in the red that no matter what blue I used it came out this dark. To me it's OK but I still think I like it red better.

You know, Seil, I'd take that blue Love any day. Great job! Imagine a dozen of those in a sterling silver or cut crystal vase. They'd definitely cool off a warm room! You should call it, "Love is Blue". Kim

This post was edited by roseseek on Thu, Dec 19, 13 at 20:08

Oh yeah, Seil! I'd buy that version of LOVE too!! That looks really cool!

Yep. We're definitely having fun with these blue roses Beth.
I'm looking for a good picture of Hocus Pocus and make the yellow stripes cyan.

Also, would you mind if I try to tone down the saturation of the blue on that blue Love Seil?

Oh yeah, unrelated to blue roses, but I have a question for Kim. How do you know that you pollinated successfully? Are hips the only way to tell or do the stigmas look different if they pollinated successfully? I have a bloom that I pollinated but I can't tell if it's going to set a hip. Most of the other blooms on that plant wilted away and those were still buds when I pollinated the bloom I mentioned. I think it's been roughly a month since I pollinated it too. It doesn't look too fat though and now it's turned a brighter green than the rest of the plant and I'm afraid it might die and fall off like the others. Or is it just changing colors because it's ripening? Also, that's too more than one questions. Sorry! I'm just new to this stuff and I've wanted to grow seedlings from my crosses for so long but I've yet to see a hip so I don't know what to do.

Some stigmas will dry, others not as much, after pollination is successful. Usually, you tell the hip has been fertilized by its swelling and not drying up and falling off. If by "brighter green" you mean more yellowing, that might not be a great sign, but that's impossible to diagnose via remote control. There are so many different color hip responses due to the varied genetics involved, it's impossible to say anything for sure. As long as it isn't drying up, rotting or falling off, you still have a chance. Kim

Thanks Kim.
Ooh I hope this is finally the one! I've compared it's hip with new unfertilized blooms on the plant and it's like 5x bigger. I hope the yellowing does not continue. Any tips on how to prevent hips from falling off or is that normal and probably a sign that a rose is not seed fertile?

If the hip has been fertilized, the plant is pregnant. Keeping it properly watered and otherwise healthy is about the most you can usually do to "encourage" the pregnancy to go full term. My experience is, trying anything unusual in attempts to carry the hips longer usually results in their loss. Just keep the plant growing and performing properly for the conditions it is enduring. Kim

Go right ahead, Resolute. I don't mind. I tried to make it a lighter shade but it was stubborn!

I'll keep that advice to heart Kim. Sadly, the hip fell off today. It was quite big already too. I dissected the hip and got these tiny "almost-seeds" inside. (They were so tiny, my camera can't get a clear photo of them) Looks like fertilization was a success! I'll be using both the pollen and seed parent in future crosses. :D I'll just make sure to take better care of the plants next time.

I toned down the saturation on your "Love is Blue" Seil, how's it look? Oh, and I PM'ed you about that paper you wrote. I'm interested. :D

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This post was edited by Resolute_Noir on Sat, Dec 21, 13 at 11:28

See I like the lighter blue color better. The turquoise is nice too. Good job!

Paper is on it's way! It's just about how I do them, and I'm no expert, but there are so many ways. Don't be afraid to experiment til you find what works best for you.

Don't feel bad about not getting them to take or to hold on to ripen. That's my biggest problem as well. Very few of my crosses ever take and then if I do get a few they don't make it to ripening. So I rarely have any crosses to work with. That's why I always try to leave a few just self pollinated ones to ripen so I'll have something to do during the winter. Sometimes even that effort fails and they drop off or the squirrels get them. It can be very frustrating!

I found out why the hip fell. SPIDER MITES. Ugh. I was so close! I blasted them out of my rose with my hose the moment I saw them.

It's quite humid enough here for most roses' pollen to fail from releasing so I don't usually get self-crosses here. Still, I never deadhead in hopes of a hip ripening. Thanks for the paper Seil! :D

I don't know how many of you are are ARS members and get the American Rose Magazine? At least two -three years ago there was an article in the magazine on blue roses.The was a picture of a blue rose. A company called Sun Roses from China is working on it. There is a prize for the company that can produce the first blue rose.
I don't know if if some of you folks know that there is no blue color in the Genus Rosa. So companies are injecting chromosomes from blue flowers to get the blue color. Maybe in a few years they might do it. It will never happen just crossing lavender roses!!!

SUNTORY blue rose APPLAUSE is supposed to be 100 percent blue by obtaining a gene pigment from a pansy It took 20 years of research to achieve. But looking at pictures of the rose, I would say it still looks lavender. Given the cost of the rose, I think I prefer Diane's Blue Bayou.

Here is a link that might be useful: SUNTORY blue rose APPLAUSE

Blue Bayou is "bluer" than Applause, which looks like just another lavender rose. I don't get their calling it blue. I just wish I knew what Kordes has done with BB since it was "poached" by Hortico. Diane
Here's Blue Bayou again. Compare the color with Applause and see for yourself. My photo is accurate in color.

Applause would possibly be "blue" if they could get the pH of the petals right. That's the next thing they have to work on, should they determine it's worth the money. Applause commands the prices per stem it has in Japan because of the aesthetic of appreciating manipulated Nature. The aesthetic which cherishes bonsai specimen and cubed fruit is willing to spend upwards of $35 a stem for the rose because, to that value system, it represents an achievement and the gift of that achievement is "an honor" to the recipient. In the US, I seriously doubt they could throw them away for any more than $9.99 a dozen...if that. The thing reminds me of a lavender, double Lisianthus. Kim

I agree, Kim, that Applause doesn't seem overly impressive to me. I noted on HMF that there were several photos of Blue Bayou in a large display in a Tokyo public garden, and more in a public garden is Taiwan. It seems they might have a high regard for the subtle pale bluish color of BB, too. Diane

Dan, did you read the first post? We're all quite aware here that Blue roses don't exist in nature, though Applause by Suntory in Japan claims to be a "blue" rose, and it is genetically, but something's not quite right as Kim said. It's petals are too acidic to show that true blue and they were also unable to stop the rose from producing the red pigment in its genes.

Imo, Blue Bajou is the closest we have to a blue rose and it's not even genetically modified! :D I wonder what if a cross between Blue Bajou and Applause would produce a true blue rose or just bluer than Blue Bajou?

I think the only good use for Applause for is for breeding, since it has the blue gene in it. Maybe a few crosses would finally bring out that true blue? (and it's petals' pH would be lower)

Now that got me thinking. If a rose with a lower pH in its petals get bred, would that rose be more tolerating of higher pH soils? or would it still prefer an acidic soil?

There's the rub...the gene (s) which are supposed to permit the formation of delphinidin, the blue pigment, is/are patented. IF you raise a rose containing them without permission and without paying for the "right", you are in violation of patent law and subject to litigation. Think Monsanto with their GMO products and the numerous litigation cases they've brought against people who have raised crops containing their inserted genes, deliberately or not. Even containing that gene, there is no guarantee of the expression of "blue". I honestly wouldn't put it past them to have bred in sterility as they have in the "suicide crops" already generated to prevent farmers from saving seed from one year's crop for the next. Brazil is currently considering whether to permit those seeds from being sold within their borders. The "suicide crops" supposedly create workable products the first generation, but seed from that generation are sterile, preventing further crops from being generated from them. That requires anyone wishing to raise the product to buy new seed from Monsanto every year. Kim

I knew there had to be a catch! I bet those roses are sterile. They have after all, engineered a rose to produce blue pigments, what more on not making it produce viable pollen/seed? Still quite a shame though.

This post was edited by Resolute_Noir on Tue, Dec 24, 13 at 13:27

Random thought but why couldn't they have just used the pigment/genes on Hydrangeas to get that nice blue color? Roses love acidic soil which makes hydrangeas blue because they can access aluminum easily so I think the conditions would be more favorable than using Pansy genes.

Maybe this is too old of a thread, but I'm really excited that I just ordered the floribunda, Blue For You and wanted to tell some of the blue rose fans here. I ordered it from Chamblee's roses. I was charged $20.00 shipping from Texas to California, but I so wanted this rose. I love it's colors ranging from lavender to slate blue. Thanks to Beth for posting her photo and to roseseek for recommending the rose on other threads. Glad to hear it does well in So Cal heat. :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Blue For You

Jasmine, you will love it! It's well worth it.

OMG -- Unfortunately, the traffic on this thread piqued my curiosity. Never have I seen such a collection of truly ghastly rose photos ('doctored' or otherwise). My apologies to all who long for a garden full of azure roses.

Well, you have your opinion, and I have mine. I think Blue Bayou is a lovely rose, and it certainly isn't doctored. Diane

That's O.K. We were just trying to imagine anyway.

If there was a true blue rose on the market it would hit the big headlines and it would be on the cover of the American Rose Magazine, as they are in charge of all new rose registrations. Being a member of the American Rose Society, I would think that we might know it before the public.
As far as i know the prize money has not been paid.
As I recall the rose on the cover of the American Rose Society's Magazine was a almost sky blue.