First, where are you? 7b is not very descriptive of your true climate. Second, find the patent numbers for the cultivars you are considering, then go to Google Patent Search and download the patent in pdf format. The format to use in GP for plant patents is "PP12345" or whatever the number may be. Usinging "PP #12,345", "PP12,345" or any other variation will not get you the one you want. The reason to download any patent is because they are legal documents of the original tree. It has not go errors from people being to lazy to find the right info, put in mistaken info, or any number of other things that happen. As such, the info is typically more accurate in the patent, and can sometimes be beneficial in other ways.

1st Tree look up Shantung Maple. It should fit your criteria nicely for size. There is also a Red-Orange Fall color selection called 'Fire Dragon'. I will be posting pics of ours soon.

2nd tree also consider Crabapples. Some of those give you three or more season interest. Many Japanese Maples might work as well depending upon circumstances. For Redbuds look at Oklahoma Redbud, and Rising Sun Redbud for extra niceties.

Arktrees

Thanks arktrees - we are based in the Raleigh Durham area.

I will look up Shantung Maple. Is it less invasive than red maple when it comes to the root system? I looked up patent search - that's a sweet idea btw - however no direct hits for brandywine maple came up. Only one indirect within some other cultivar called RT4.

Regarding crabapples I thought they prefer full sun. Also skeptical again with the berry situation - same with dogwood.

Bloodgood and Moonfire seem to be good Japanese Maple options however they start smaller for the same price and grow slower too :( I will check the Oklahoma and rising sun redbud. Would they be better compared to the Kousa Dogwood - this is still our first contender.

Thanks for the suggestions.

You have to use the Patent Number, not the name of the cultivar. The patent number if usually listed next to the cultivar name. Plus Brandywine is the Trade Name for "Magnificent Magenta" which is what it was called in the patent app.

Also invasive refers to plant out of it's native environment/geography that spreads unnaturally. You are referring to an "aggressive" root system. And yes, Shantung Maples root system are reportedly deeper than many other maples. Seems to be the norm for most Asian Maples.

Yes Crabapples prefer full sun, but if they get 6+ hours a day, they would likely be fine. Honestly, I missed anything in your first post on sun exposure.

As for the redbuds, you mentioned them in your first post, so I was trying to give you more options, and redbuds that give you something more than the standard spring flowering. The Oklahoma is extremely drought tolerant and has very very glossy shiny leaves and magenta flower color. The Rising Sun I will let you look up. :-)

Also be aware that in my experience dogwoods are slow to establish, and aren't very drought resistant.

Lastly, another ideal for a small tree. American Fringe Tree would probable be something worthwhile for you, and not at all commonly planted native.

Arktrees

1st tree: Medium Size, Sourwood
[IMG]http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad299/dictionaryzzz/sourwood.png[/IMG]
2nd tree: Small Size, Eastern Redbud 'Appalachian Red' (has brightest color)
[IMG]http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad299/dictionaryzzz/cercisApRed.jpg[/IMG]

^Sorry tried posting pics on here, guess it didnt work. Just copy and paste into URL.

Green use the html code, not the image code. See below. I deleted part of the code so that your picture would not load in my post, and you can post them for yourself.

Arktrees

""

Sourwood
{{gwi:488104}}
Redbud 'Appalachian Red'
{{gwi:488105}}

Hello folks - the sourwood and the redbud both look gorgeous - thanks for posting green. I checked the sourwood, it may be more tricky to grow, it grows mostly in acidic soils and is a slow grower. Glad to know it is thriving in your yard. But I think being a novice gardener (at best) I will go with the brandywine maple - we have many many maple trees in our neighborhood and I think will be less risky. The patent says 25'x12' at 12 years with a decent 1.5' per year growth, now just have to hope we will get the right tree ;-)

For the other tree I think we are preferring either redbud or dogwood - will go through the different cultivars to see which one to pick. Is it true the redbud is faster growing than dogwood? The area this will go in is mostly in shade/ partial sun and I doubt it will be drought-like, if anything it might be on the wetter side if it rains intermittently.

hs,
Do what you want, but here is my opinion FWIW. I am not a novice at this, and I have relevant education in relation to plants and requirements. But I have had trouble with dogwood. We have a Milky Way Kousa dogwood planted in spring 2007 as a B&B tree, and it still has not grown. Drainage is very good. It's sheltered from excess wind, kepth moist, etc. NO growth. It flowers nicely, but NO growth yet. It also took 3 years before it was happy with once weekly watering. Point being, they are slow to recover, and are much more of a tightrope until they do. And yes Redbud will grow faster than dogwood. In my experience redbud grows about 2'/year once established.

Below are two pics of our Oklahoma Redbud from Spring 2012. This tree was barely taller than the Rhododendron behind it when planted fall 2006. So 5 growing seasons at this point.

{{gwi:337505}}

{{gwi:337506}}

Lastly, here is a pic of our Fire Dragon Shantung taken last fall.

{{gwi:488106}}

Arktrees - you have convinced me to go with the redbud :-) Seems like a higher chance of success there - especially with lower maintenance required.

I found this cultivar called Forest Pansy which seems perfect for our yard (the local nursery website says it carries it) - 20' height - 20' spread, purple foliage, yellow to orange fall color and purple-pink flowers. Second option would be the Oklahoma Redbud. Looked at the rising sun but I will pass plus didnt find it in a couple of nursery websites.

Do you know how the forest pansy grows in comparison to Oklahoma red. They both seem to have the same final height spread characteristics but I am sure there are differences between these cultivars. Thanks for making my decision easier. Nice fall colors btw.

rs,
Glad you like the pics. Fall color of redbuds aren't really their strong points IMHO. Our Oklahoma Redbud gets a few pale yellow leaves, but most of them get frozen green and then drop ~10 days later without turning. Have seen some seed grown trees turn a descent yellow, but don't recall Forest Pansy doing much in fall color department. They do however have a fairly long last spring color, and so that would see a plus. My significant other LOVES the super glossy leaves on our Okahoma. It just comes down to person preferences. As for growth rate, I would expect them to be similar. Our Oklahoma is slowing down considerably in the growing "UP", but growing "OUT" seems little changed, which the largest FP I know of locally have tended to not get much over ~15' or so, but continue to spread. I also have to say that in person the 'Appalachian Red' posted above is outstanding as well, though I can tell you nothing of their fall color.

Lastly, no matter what you choose, proper planting and pruning are critical. Both are remarkably easy to screw up, and just because you may pay a nursery or landscaper (often times a monkey with a shovel) handle these, does not mean that it's done properly. So you will need to educate yourself on this as well. And of course ask questions here.

Arktrees

However two concerns I have are whether the dogwood berries will stain the driveway and whether the branches will be too low to drive a car into the garage without scratching.

===>> you train a tree to the height you want .. through proper pruning ...

and you begin by planting it further away than you think necessary.. so as to avoid things like getting your eyes poked out ... or scratching the car .. [or killing you in your sleep.. but that is another episode ... lol]

ALL trees are pruned.. to shape.. we dont just plant them.. and hope it all works out ... so when that time comes.. you come back here.. and learn how to do it ...

as to forest pansy ... it is a foo foo version of the regular green one ... it is not an easy one to get going .. and it will not grow to the specs of the green one ... the white tissue makes it slower growing ... and that might actually work for you .... but if it makes you happy.. go for it ...

as to surface roots ... well.. that is an issue if you want to garden under your trees.. and if you do.. there are a lot better things than any maple.. though some are 'better' ???? than the majority ...

if you are talking just planting them in the lawn.. forget about that .. and if its a problem in 30 to 50 years.. well.. deal with it then ...

but if you want to shade garden.. then i suggest you should stay away from maple ... box elder.. poplar.. willow.. mulberry.. etc.. ad nauseum ...

and as to that redbud pic above.. it is a bit close to the house ... [whats that all about ark.. lol] .... i had one that was a 25 foot ball.. just before it got so old it died.. as such.. you can see that it has a vast potential.. and no.. it came with the house.. so i have no clue how old it was ... the split trunk [which is what they do when they get real old] was nearly 18 to 24 inches wide.. and the house dates to 1985 or so.. so it was 25 years old or so ...

but one thing for sure.. ark will have no problem pulling out the saw.. and teaching that thing a lesson or two.. should it become problematic someday .. including.. but not limited to removal ... [heck.. he may even move it because he has the tools to do such]]

also ... see link for planting guide ... so you can start reviewing such in advance.. the 3 keys are PROPER planting... PROPER watering, until established .. and PROPER MULCHING ... and you may as well add in buying good stock to start with ....

finally ... bigger is not always better when it comes to buying new trees ... very large transplants .. say over 6 feet ... are not simply throw them in the hole deals .. if you are going large .. you might want to pay for installation][read that: warranty] ... but if you are staying relatively small ... the link ought to take care of you... as well as our brilliant insights.. lol ...

good luck

ken

ps: hey ark.. i just cut down two 12 foot emerald arbs yesterday.. that i planted closer to the house than yours.. lol.. live and learn .... read that: do as i say.. not as i did .. lol..

Here is a link that might be useful: link

LOL Ken, no sweat bro
It's about 10-12' off the house. That was where my female other half wanted it, so that was where it went. She went by the tags on the tree. As I'm sure you are well aware, sometimes it just ain't worth the political cost. ;-) Also redbuds really don't cause foundation problems, plus I know our foundation goes down several feet, so foundation problems didn't concerned me. And as you said, if I see a hint of a problem, I WILL deal with it. Lucky for me, she grew up a rural farm girl and can emotionally deal with these kind of things. Also FTR Oklahoma Redbud does not grow as tall as standard eastern redbud. You would have no reason to know that as they are not cold hardy that far north. Ours has slowed considerable in height growth, and is now spreading nicely. On a side note, next to the building I use to work in, there was a older house that had been converted into a business. It had a redbud that was the largest I have ever seen. It was every bit of 35-40' tall, and 50'+ wide. Grand ole redbud, but our 2009 ice storm took out ALLOT of it's canopy, but was still going the last time I was by there. Just a little tidbit that I though you might find of interest.

Arktrees

Oklahoma Redbud does not grow as tall as standard eastern redbud.

==>> correct.. in MI ... it was an eastern ... actually cercis canandensis.. if i recall correctly w/o looking.. which means its Canadian .. whats that all about.. lol ...

i cant do the western.. but can you do the eastern????

and the key question.. which is forest pansy?????? i am thinking eastern????? [again.. too lazy to hit google myself.. right now]

ken

>>> as to forest pansy ... it is a foo foo version of the regular green one ... it is not an easy one to get going .. and it will not grow to the specs of the green one ... the white tissue makes it slower growing ... and that might actually work for you .... but if it makes you happy.. go for it ...

Ken - what do you mean by the "white tissue makes it slower growing"? Is that a characteristic of forest pansy that's not in Oklahoma red? I have to finalize the order with my landscaper today :-)

The leaves are purple for much of the growing season instead of green and lack the chlorophyll quantity of the species which decreases sugar production thereby slowing growth comparibly.

I have a FP and it grows a little slower than species redbud in my yard and does not have much fall color for me. I would not and did not buy this cultivar for fall color.

Hope this helps!

John

Ken,
Our native redbud is the same as yours. The Oklahoma Redbud was found in a small region of South Central Oklahoma that is much hotter and drier than anywhere in Arkansas. As such it is adapted to that sort of climate. This results in the waxy shiny leaves, thicker leaves, and smaller size. Some consider it a species, others subspecies, and still other a variant of a subspecies. I'm not touching the taxonomy on it. I prefer to use Cercis reniformis for clarity. As for the true Western Redbud Cercis occidentalis, I doubt it would make it here. It is probable too wet and humid for it in the summers here.

Lastly Cercis canandensis was likely described to science for the first time in Canada or in honor of Canada. That would be my guess as to how it likely got it's name.

Arktrees

John/ others - thanks a lot for your inputs. I guess I am a little late looking at the last couple messages - they had to dig the trees today to plant this weekend - and my landscaper said he had better experience with the forest pansy growing well here compared to the Oklahoma red - so I asked him to order the FP. Hmm.... I will keep you guys posted on how it goes!

We are also taking this opportunity to get some gardenias, spireas and camellias - but overall it looks like too much gardening all at once :D Maybe this is how I will learn some of this. Was fascinating to go over all the different shrubs/ trees and their details.

The FP is also Cercis Canadensis - btw

there is a redbud.. that has leaves with white in them..

i apologize.. i confused such with FP ..

but as a general rule ... green leaves are the most efficient in making food.. chlorophyll .. for the tree .. when you vary from such.. growth rate is affected ... though in the case of purple.. its not much ... though it still isnt green ...

on a variegated tree.. white tissue in a leaf does absolutely nothing to produce food ... so if say half the leaf is white.. then half the food is not made ... so such a tree.. can grow at a slower annual growth rate ... and as such.. these types of plants.. usually have a smaller 10 year size estimate ...

and they have other inherent problems.. so i call them foo foo ...

anyway.. thats your useless lesson for the day .. since you dont have the plant i was talking about.. lol ... and if gal is counting words.. lol.. her head will explode at the uselessness of this .. lol ...

anyway .. speaking of making food.. do NOT treat your trees as children.. they will NEVER need to be fed .. as i noted.. they do it themselves ...

since it sounds like you are getting rather large trees installed.. let me suggest.. that what you need to know.. is how to properly water a very large transplant.. for 2 to 3 years .. and i sum that up by saying you have to moisten the ENTIRE root mass ... AT DEPTH ... and then with proper mulch.. do not water again.. until the soil at finger depth is NEAR dry ... and then water it DEEPLY AGAIN .. this is not about spraying the leaves every other day ... that will do nothing for the roots that need to grow.. deep down in the soil ...

enough words gal???

ken

I'm looking for medium sized trees for my yard too...thinking about birch but may bit a tad too tall. How about this?
Malus ioensis "Klehm's Improved Bechtel"
Does anyone have experience with this type?

I don't want to offend any of the proud redbud owners here, but I am back for more suggestions - the nursery we went to to get the forest pansy redbud advised against it if we got anything more than 2-3 hours of afternoon sun in the spring and summer - and standing on our yard today my guess was we would get full sun from ~11 AM to 5 PM from April to July-August (north facing home). I was originally tricked into thinking this area was mostly shaded because of the huge sycamore that was standing there (which we had to get removed due to damage to concrete) - so now maybe the cherry tree that I was originally thinking about (which apparently needs full sun for good blooms) should work except it's a short lived tree overall.

The nursery suggested magnolia and after doing some research I narrowed it down to Kay Parris (M.grandiflora) with the following advantages over the redbuds for our situation:
1) 20-30' height (taller than the redbuds)
2) 8-12' spread (less than redbuds)
3) Evergreen - which will add a nice touch of "partial" privacy there for our arch window on the high ceiling in our house (added bonus)
4) Same slower growth as the redbud, different kind of flowering tree

Questions I have:
1) Is the root system of Kay Parris bad for concrete within 6 feet?
2) I read stories about these cultivars (more from the Little Gem) not standing up to a harsh winter/ ice storms with the leaves turning brown and the tree looking pretty drab. Would this be a problem for Kay Parris in Raleigh Durham?
3) 6 to 8 hours of afternoon sun in the summer months ok for the Kay Parris?
4) Finally - I am planning on cutting the low branches so I can grow grass/ mow underneath. I heard of leaves dropping and fruits falling throughout the year - is it that bad that for magnolias you would always want them flush to the ground?

Thanks all, and Hiccups - sorry for going ahead here, hopefully someone will answer your question too.

the plain old green redbud do fine in full blistering sun ... and i have no idea why purple would do any different ... did he just not have one.. but still want to sell you trees???? .. whatever ...

presuming you have a proper concrete drive.. forget about that ... unless you truly believe you will be around in 50 years to worry about it.. besides.. it is the super monster trees where this is a problem.. not the smaller ones ... maple.. sycamore.. etc ...

no pruning of the canopy.. on newly transplanted trees.. for 2 to 3 years ... you need the leaves.. to make the food.. to feed the roots to grow to get established ...

install a proper mulch ring as wide as the entire canopy.. until such time ... which means.. the tree is primary.. grass is secondary .. in our world anyway ...

ken

hs,
Not trying to talk you in to anything, get what you want. With that said, your nursery is FLAT WRONG!!!! A local shopping area has Forest Pansy planted in landscape islands surround by asphalt and concrete is full blazing sun and they are doing just fine. There have been many many many many 100+ degree days. I'm sure they get some supplemental water wince the root zone is rather small, but other than that, nothing. These trees have grown to roughly 14' tall, and 20' wide, so they are not babies.

With that said, another tree you might look into is Chalk Maple Acer luecoderme. They are native in your area, but almost nobody produces them. Small trees can be found though. They are basically a smaller Sugar Maple that really should be used more.

Otherwise, be sure to look at the crabapples again. Disease resistance is of utmost importance with crabapples. Both they and cherries have a number of potential disease issues, but there are many selections of crabs that resist the most common disease problems. So IMHO I would do a crab over a cherry, plus crabs can give you colored fruit in the fall/winter, and fall color as many for many selections.

Arktrees

Hi guys - We finally had these trees planted in our front yard today. Arktrees you are right - the landscaper who planted our trees said that the FP should do just fine in full summer sun - any tree will need watering then is what he said. Anyway we went with Brandywine Maple as the bigger tree and Kay Parris Magnolia as the smaller one in the end. Very excited - hopefully they both grow well - I am attaching pics here - guys, thanks for all the help in making my choice easier. cheers.

I couldn't post two images in the same post - so here's the brandywine maple - ya - no leaves so can't tell anything yet :-)

Anyway - the landscaper told me during this weather (~55F peak each day) - we need to water these trees only for a minute once a week. That seems too less to me. Can someone confirm? Thanks.

hs,
Your Brandywine looks to be planted much too deep, and it looks like the mulch is too deep, an right upvto the trunk. All these things are VERY BAD! They can all result in the death of your tree. I bet the magnloia is the same way. This is what I was talking about in an earlier post about coming back and learning about proper planting. These issues need to be addressed ASAP.

Arktrees

Arktrees - i took some photos of the trunk - the magnolia looks ok - see the pic below - I removed some mulch away from the trunk - the surface there with the green pebbles was the surface of the container as it came from the nursery. I will send a photo of the maple in the next post - which looks more concerning to me.

Here's the maple trunk image. I am not sure if it is too deeply buried or just buried an inch or so - I dug around the trunk a little with a small plastic shovel and did not hit any roots. Is there a good way to find out if this is planted wrong without damaging the tree? Also how do you fix it if it turns out it is deeper than it should be? Thanks.

hs,
Both trees look to planted much to deep. You have not said whether these were planted from containers or balled and burlaped. But I would guess the magnokia was container grown, while the Brandywine was balled and burlaped. In both cases, what you must do is the same. You must remove soil and/or potting media down to the point at which the major roots grow out from the trunk. There may be small roots above this point, and if so, remove those as well as they can end up strangling your trees down the line. Once you have gotten down to the level of the root flare (where the major roots FLARE off the trunk), then you need to remove soil out from the trunk horizontally at that level. Also remove the remaining burlap from around the trunk of your Brandywine. NOTE, even if you reach the top of the media, or the soil (if Balled and burlap) proceed downward until you reach the flare. Trees are often planted too deeply in containers (doesn't matter there so much in a container as it is surrounded by air), but also the flare is buried during production of balled and burlap. As for removing the soil, gloved hands can do an excellent job, but hand tools are helpful. Just go slow and careful, and you will be fine.

If you have questions at any state, take more pics and come back here. Might want to start a new thread so that more people will see it and help if I'm not around at that point.

Arktrees

Arktrees - you are right maple is a 1.75" b&b, magnolia is a 15 gal container. I checked with the landscaper about the tree depth question, and while he took this as an insult (why can't tradesfolks let go of their ego - it was a fair question and I meant no harm!!), he did say that he did not bury the root ball and that the trunk flare was slightly above existing grade.

Visually it looks like the place where the trunk meets the soil is 2-3 inches above existing grade when I measured with a tape. So if no additional soil was added on the root ball, I can think of two possible scenarios: (i) he is right and the trunk flare is indeed about an inch underneath what you see in the pic and the trunk flare is planted 1-2 inches above existing grade which is right acc. to the website below or (ii) The tree was planted too deep in the nursery and his definition of trunk flare is where the trunk meets the root ball. If the latter is the case, it might be too late because I can keep removing soil until I hit the root flare, but if the root flare is below grade then that means the planting hole originally dug was too deep and there will be a low level right around the trunk where there will be water logging which might be worse off than current situation :( What do you think? Same goes for the magnolia.

My other question: I am guessing I can deal with this during the Thanksgiving weekend as it is not imminent and how big would be the main roots from the root flare for a 1.75" caliper b&b tree - I don't want to accidentally damage those and then it will be a point of new return ;-) Would scratches or dents inflicted on the roots by a small plastic hand-held shovel be ok or entry points for bugs?

An interesting website I came across:
http://www.cmg.colostate.edu/gardennotes/633.html

hs,
Remove soil until you get to the root flare. If it is below grade, that is all the more reason to do so. Without a doubt your trees are too deep in the soil. The nursery is not your yard. The trees were not planted in the ground at the nursery, they are now. BIG DIFFERENCE. The sooner this is dealt with the better. While damage may not be visible yet, it is occurring. As stated above, go slow and you will be fine. Small scrapes will not matter. Roots burried too deep where they don't get enough Oxygen DOES matter. Plus having planted in the fall is the best time and gives the roots to begin growing into the surrounding soil before summer.

As for your "landscaper", I often say not so nice things about "landscapers". There is no license, no proof of knowledge, no requirement what so ever for someone to call themselves a "landscaper". Many (not all) of them are IMHO are "Monkey's with a shovel".

Arktrees