*sound of crickets chirping*

Hee hee........ yeah, sooner or later we're going to have to talk about this, but not yet.

Basically, though, what you've been told is wrong. Sounds like somebody's trying to throw you off the track! You have to understand that this whole variegation thing is still kind of in the realm of insider information. If you want to find out how it's done, what you have to do is make friends with a hybridizer, let them get to know you and trust you, and then maybe you'll get the real story. Either that, or do a lot of research. The info is out there if you know where to look, but speaking only for myself, I'm not quite ready to hand over the keys to the new car to every lurker on the web-- at least not until I've had a chance to drive it around the block a few times first, if you know what I mean....... ;-)

I will tell you this much: if the seed parent is albomarginated, all of the seedlings will be albino and die. If the seed parent is medio-picta, all of the seedlings will be plain green, i.e. unvariegated. Crossing two variegates won't make any difference. Also, you won't get true seedlings of any hybrid by self-pollinating it; you'll get just as much of a mix as with the original cross.

For now, a good excercise would be to look at all of the Neo files on FCBS, study the parentage of all of the variegates and see if a lightbulb goes on in your head.

Are you sure you can't tissue culture variegates? I don't have any experience with that, but I thought sure that some of them were in TC. If not, then it's all vegetative propagation, not seedlings.

That statement about TC not producing varigated plants isnt true and I agree with Lisa read where she suggested as I too am driving the car first......

Thanks for the info. A lot of Skotaks variegated hybrids are crossed with neo XXXX. Ive seen this listed as a pollen parent for many variegted hybrids. As to why XXXX(starts w/ a c) produces variegation, I dont know.

Ive read a couple books on micropropogation, and even built a small lab in my home. Eventhough my futile attempt at cloning neos was a disaster, I learned a great deal on this topic. Many TC labs have attempted cloning variegated bromeliads. Both aechmeas and neos. The variegation cannnot be stabilized or controlled. They may get a few good ones out of a thousand. That is why you mostly see non varigiegated neos in micropropogation. Such as, Tangerine, Grace, Luca etc.

I appreciate the info. You guys have been a great help. I dont get out much, so the odds of me becoming close friends w/ a geat bromelid hybridizer are pretty slim. Most members in my bromeliad society know very little about this topic.

WOW Top Secret insider information! Thanks for the giggle! I don't blame you for not sharing since you probably spent a good bit of time figuring things out.

Moegreen,

Read what Lisa wrote carefully she did point you in the right direction. There are some hints in another thread here somewhere.

I personally don't have much of an interest in variegated plants, I have a few and have no real interest in working with them.

I believe, and I may be wrong, but isn't Aechmea Samuri (spelling might not be right) a result of tissue culture?

I think that some of the variegated plants that are being mass produced just pup readliy, and once they build up enough stock, they get the numbers they need to be able to sell them. You can grow a pup to marketable size much faster than a plant that has been produced through tissue culture. Now for the varieties that don't pup well or fast TC, is an option.

The subject of tissue culture is a touchy one in some circles, and embraced in others.

Daylily people do not want tissue cultured plants because the flowers tend to vary too much. we're taking anywhere from $100.00 to $300.00 for an introduction that is cutting edge, and they want a plant that is going to look like the original. That is not to say that there are no Daylily hybridizers using it to increase stock for release sooner and to produce higher numbers of plants to sell. I know I have tissue cultured plants in my garden, MILDRED MITCHELL is one it came with the tag from the company that produces daylilys that way, I also have the "real thing" and when you put them side by side you can see slight differences.

Hosta and Orchid people seem to like it to produce large numbers of plants quickly, and consider the varients a bonus.

I am waiting to see how the Clivia world responds, some of the first tissue cultured plants are in the works now. Clivia are very slow to reproduce, and are not always true to form when seed grown so it is hoped it will provide good numbers of plants for release quickly at a reasonable cost.

The problems as I see them are all these plants must be grown out and bloomed to insure that they are true to form. This I think is less of a problem with Bromeliads, and Hostas where the flowers are actually secondary.

Thats right bambi. Green chantini and possibly Samuri are being tissue cultured. The variegation is a lttle different on these plants. The black chantini has given the labs a lot of problems, but they have been succesful w/ the green ones. Albo marginated or variegata bromeliads are more difficult.

Depending on the lab, sometimes mutations occur and you get a poor product. I believe large guzmania growers get good results w/flower quality from tissue. In my collection, I have some pretty cool mutations from labs such as: variegated Tangerine and Purple Star.

Ive been doing some research on fcbs website today. Ive noticed certain hybridizers do not list the pollen parent of their variegated hybrids. They leave it open w/ a question mark.

My hypothesis is their is no special or different hybridization process or chemical additive in creating variegated hybrids. The pollen parent is key. Certain species provide a higher variegation probabality. My freind went to visit Chester not too long ago. He sometimes has to produce thousands of culls before he gets 2 or 3 variegated plants.

I wanted to share with you guys some of my bromeliad pictures, but I couldnt find an option on this forum to attach pic files.

Moegreen, here is a link that will take you to a thread that HDD posted a while ago that explains it very nice how to go about posting pictures.

Japie

Here is a link that might be useful: How to post Photos

"I dont get out much, so the odds of me becoming close friends w/ a geat bromelid hybridizer are pretty slim."

That's why God created email. ;-)

I don't get out much either, but through the magic of cyberspace and the GW, I've managed to meet people all over the globe who share an interest in hybridizing.

As to posting pictures, the instructions have been given numerous times, so just search the archives. I'd like to see what crosses you've made.

Ok Im good for something here LOL...

1. Set up your private account with a free photo hosting site(like photo bucket or webshots)
2. Load your pictures to your photo site.
3. To post on GW, under each photo are several web addy's...the tagline(HTML code) is the one
you need copy and paste straight in with your written post. You can paste several photo's by
repeating these steps. This does require you have two explorer windows open at the same time.
One with free photo account and one for GW.

HDD, you have that explanation down pat!

"I dont get out much, so the odds of me becoming close friends w/ a geat bromelid hybridizer are pretty slim."
That's why God created email. ;-)

I don't get out much either, but through the magic of cyberspace and the GW, I've managed to meet people all over the globe who share an interest in hybridizing.

As to posting pictures, the instructions have been given numerous times, so just search the archives. I'd like to see what crosses you've made."
hey lisa as long as your saying this could i have your email i would love to be your friend, i only want to know how to hybridize properly, lol. sorry couldnt help myself

Thanks for info that was emailed to me. It felt really good to get some answers to my questions from some very nice people

brom phil: you don't need my email for that. I have posted step-by-step instructions along with photos in several threads on this forum. All you have to do is read through the old postings.

The first requirement for being a good hybridizer is being willing to do your research! ;-)

bugger that requires work lol thanks ill search

Brom phil, if you think THAT is work, wait untill you start pollinating, sowing the seeds, care for them, growing them on into specimen plants! The research is a breeze!!!

Japie

lol but the pollinating and sowing and care for them i ove that stuff except the resaerch, maybe i could get bill gates to invent something were i could insert a cd in2 my head and download all that knowladge. hmmm

Thank you, Japie! I was thinking exactly the same thing, but wasn't sure if I should say it.

The fact is that the research is not only the most FUN part of the process, it is arguably the most important. If you don't like research, then you probably shouldn't be a hybridizer.

To tell the truth, I'm starting to have pangs of conscience now after Sander's remark about the downside of giving people the tools to do this work. I sure hope I'm not responsible for a second flood of crappy hybrids being registered 5 years from now! ;-)

On the other hand Lisa, you show a lot of people how to have the most fun with their broms.
Spreading the brom disease like you do is a good thing.

And I promise I won't register my crap. ;-)

Sander

Well Lisa if you should decide to quit offering advice for "fear" of a second flood of "crappy" bromeliads hitting the market how is that going to help matters?

I would be interested in seeing the judging standards for Bromeliads. Do they exist? I am not talking about SHOW STANDARDS either.

One question I'm really interested in having answered is, how can you or anyone else for that matter judge a plant based on 1 photo on the FCBS? If you haven't actually seen it more than once, or grown it, how can you evaluate it?

Here is a fact, not everyone is going to like every plant, but chances are more than 1 person will. Don't take ths personally, but while I really like most of the plants you have introduced there are some I just plain don't care for.
It is all a matter of opinion, likes and dislikes, unless there are standards. Then if you follow standards strictly you are limiting what is available.

There are lots of plants I don't like, and I would never own, does that make them inferior? No it's my opinion. I set standards for my Daylilys, and porbably produce between 1 and 2 thousand seedlings a year, so far somewhere between 3 and 5 are good enough in my eyes to introduce after having been at it for more than 10 years. Will everyone like them? No probably not, I have seen more than a few $200.00 plants I wouldn't want in my garden. MY opinion only counts for ME!

Maybe, rather than looking at the negative side of the issue you should not only encourage people to get started but teach them what a good plant is. That will make a difference.

I've heard, "they are using up all the good names" more than once, and if you are just a little bit creative, that is not a problem.

This forum is a place to share knowledge, ideas, and help others. There is no downside to helping people find the right path, or giving them the tools to get started in hybridizing.

There seems to be some sort of problem with the archives. I have tried to find a specific thread that is not really that old for the last 2 days, and it comes up as missing. For awhile some things might have

I took Lisa's comment as light hearted humor...but here again..my opinion
I have read and copied all her advise..its a small book LOL
As for using up 'all the good names' I read it different...'using up good names' for plants that wont even be in circulation in 2 years.
You can teach people 'methods' but teaching what a 'good plant is'..impossible task...
personal pride will hopefully be part of the hybridizer themselves,
My opinion of a good plant is..One that is recognised when sitting or planted with others of its kind...and someone see's the plant..they will recognise it by its registered name because it stands out with its own merits.
All plants are beautiful in their own way but not all should be registered

Ah, I see we're back to talking about the registry again. Not exactly what I had intended, and yes, my remark was meant as more of a light-hearted jab than any dark soul-searching.

But since we're on the subject, I was talking to an orchid hybridizer yesterday about the differences in the orchid and bromeliad registries, and it's like night and day! There they charge a fee for each submission, and won't accept any hybrid unless both parents are also registered and the lineage can be traced all the way back to species. Someone apparently analyzes your photo, and if the stated lineage doesn't seem credible you will be denied. You also have to say when it was pollinated, when it first bloomed, etc. and if that doesn't add up, you will be denied (and your fee not refunded either). Also if somebody has already crossed those two parents, you can't register it, you have to use their name. Grexes are all-important, and cultivars don't matter so much.

This is for orchids, now. For bromeliads, it's just a big ID bank, no judging standards whatsoever. Actually the brom registry started out with many of the same requirements as for orchids and other plant groups, but so many people were discouraged from the bother of registering that in recent years the emphasis has switched to not only making it much easier to do, but now calling it a crime if you DON'T register every plant that leaves your hands! So in my mind this encourages people to register plants that are not particularly distinctive, as HDD says. Maybe "crap" is too strong a word, but the bottom line is that there are no guidelines there at all.

I don't know how to teach people what makes a good plant, and I agree that not all of mine will stand the test of time, or are that distinctive. Some are obviously better than others, and if I weren't selling to Michael I probably wouldn't bother registering or even naming many of them. I am bowing to the current push to do so, not only to help him, but to lock in the names. As I said before, my main complaint about names being taken is when I already have something in circulation under that name, and changing it only creates more confusion because you now have the same plant in the trade under two different names. This is exactly the type of problem the current lax registration policy is intended to remedy, so it seems more than a little ironic to me.

Yes, one man's crap is another's treasure, but it's interesting that with all of the Neos that are now in the registry, there are still certain cvs that most everybody recognizes and that have become "standards", i.e. Royal Burgundy, Barbarian, Hannibal Lecter, Debbie, Ninja, Pemiento, Cheers, Red Waif, Painted Lady, etc. etc. to name just a few. How do you define what makes them stand out? You just know it when you see it.

re: searching the forum archives: see the notice in red type at the top of the main brom page. They're having problems with the search engine at the moment, but normally it works.

moegreen what part of the world do grow your broms in?

"There they charge a fee for each submission, and won't accept any hybrid unless both parents are also registered and the lineage can be traced all the way back to species. Someone apparently analyzes your photo, and if the stated lineage doesn't seem credible you will be denied."

This seems like something that is not really practical. In theory then you could not use any newly discovered unnamed plants, a friend of mine from Holland just returned from Vietnam awhile ago with a number of newly discovered orchids some of which will represent a new genus, and certanly some new species belonging to established genuses. Next if you wanted to lie about parentage, you could just substitue the name of a look alike for one of the parents. With all the possible genetic combinations hen crossing 2 plants, NO ONE can predict the outcome.

"You also have to say when it was pollinated, when it first bloomed, etc. and if that doesn't add up, you will be denied (and your fee not refunded either). Also if somebody has already crossed those two parents, you can't register it, you have to use their name. Grexes are all-important, and cultivars don't matter so much"

All that information could easily be falsified if you wanted to. It sounds like te regstrar has too much power, what do you supose would happen if you tried to register a plant, and for some reason didn't like you?

"For bromeliads, it's just a big ID bank, no judging standards whatsoever. Actually the brom registry started out with many of the same requirements as for orchids and other plant groups, but so many people were discouraged from the bother of registering that in recent years the emphasis has switched to not only making it much easier to do, but now calling it a crime if you DON'T register every plant that leaves your hands!"

Well every plant that leaves your hands doesn't really need to be named or registered, but should probably carry the parentage something like Neo. RED WAIF X Neo. punctissima seedling. There are some plants that are very nice that could be passed around for breeding that might not be up to snuff in the hybridizers eyes, but does have many redeeming traits.

"So in my mind this encourages people to register plants that are not particularly distinctive, as HDD says. Maybe "crap" is too strong a word, but the bottom line is that there are no guidelines there at all."

There probably shouldn't be either, but once again, all the registrar is probably looking at is a photo, and in all honesty it is not part of his job to tell people teir plants suck, and they can't register it. They could ask specific questions of the hybridizer, like, is it distinctive? Is it an Improvement over the parents?

"I don't know how to teach people what makes a good plant, and I agree that not all of mine will stand the test of time, or are that distinctive. Some are obviously better than others, and if I weren't selling to Michael I probably wouldn't bother registering or even naming many of them."

I think you could suggest what makes up a nice plant, it would be your opinion, but I am sure you can list some of the qualities a good plant sould have. That would be a shame, because you do produce some really nice plants, I said I didn't care for some of tem, but that does not make tem inferior in any way. It is my likes and dislikes that determin what i purchase. Thank goodness you are selling to Michael, or we wouldn't be enjoying your plants.

"I am bowing to the current push to do so, not only to help him, but to lock in the names. As I said before, my main complaint about names being taken is when I already have something in circulation under that name,"

Now that is a problem, plants should not be released with names until AFTER they are registered. You can give a plnat any name you want, but it is not valid until it's actually registered, and if someone uses and registers the name weather they know about your plants or not the problem is that you did not following the guidelines, and register it and getting confirmation of the name before release.

"and changing it only creates more confusion because you now have the same plant in the trade under two different names. This is exactly the type of problem the current lax registration policy is intended to remedy, so it seems more than a little ironic to me."

The whole nomenclature system is in place to avoid confusion, but when people don't follow protocol thats where problems occur. If you decide to release an unregistered plant by the rules, it should NOT have a name. What is happening now is someone is trying to bring order to something that has probably been a problem for years, and they are probably doing the best job they can. My suggestion would be to come up with some guidelines for registration, one rule should be that a name cannot be used for a plant if it has been published or distributed in any way before it is registered.

"Yes, one man's crap is another's treasure, but it's interesting that with all of the Neos that are now in the registry, there are still certain cvs that most everybody recognizes and that have become "standards", i.e. Royal Burgundy, Barbarian, Hannibal Lecter, Debbie, Ninja, Pemiento, Cheers, Red Waif, Painted Lady, etc. etc. to name just a few. How do you define what makes them stand out? You just know it when you see it."

Are they "standards", or are they really just the BEST?

Following are pictures of some of my recently planted neo hybrid seedlings. Carcharodon, johannis, and correia araujoi are some of the species I used in my crosses.

I live in south florida, and am concentrating on landscape hybrids that can tolerate plenty of sunlight. I also made several crosses with Painted Lady as both seed and pollen parent.

I experimented with different potting medias. This year I planted my seedlings in both canadian peat and spaghnum moss. Im definitely seeing better results with the canadian peat w/o draingage holes.

Im presently germinating about 50 of these containers. How many seeds? I dont know, but I plan on doubling my efforts this year.

This years harvest of hybrid seeds has been my best so far. I lost many seeds the first cuple of times I attempted to sow them, but through research and trial and error, I've gotten better results this year.

Im waiting for the neo pictured below to flower. I think its probably the best one I have. It will probably be my first hybrid registery w/fcbs. I got a great name in mind, but Im not telling just yet.

Im going to try to hybridize aechmeas for the first time this year. One of my 2008 resolutions, Variegated Neo Hybrid!!!

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very nice confirmation

To live up to your new year's resolution, get a fine lined variegate as a seed parent. That seems to work best.

Nice crosses you made, no doubt you have something nice coming along.

Sander

Yeah, excellent form!

Yes, that's a nice plant, moe, very full. What is the parentage?

Thanks. Luca x Alpha Hybrid.

Since were on the topic of variegated neos, I thought I'd share some pictures I took today while visiting a bromeliad nursery. These variegations were mutations from tissue culture. I thought the variegated Purple Star looked very cool.

The last two pictures are of two plants I purchased. These two particular neos have very slight var. I wonder if these would make good T's for seed parents.

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Var. Aechmea Starlite

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Var. Purple Star

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Var. Grace

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Follow the link below Moegreen.

Sander

Here is a link that might be useful: Look here

those plants look like some of Leo's

The last plant looks like it reversed or something

Yeah, they are. I've been out to visit him at Country Garden Bromeliads a few times. They have a pretty large operation. He showed me some of the hybrids hes working on.
The last plant pictured was in a large group of Luna x RL Frasier hybrid. This particular one has lost most of its wide variegation. And is almost completely solid , except for a few fine variegation lines. Im not sure if it will make a good T, but ill try it anyways.

Thanks for the link Sander. Very interesting info.

Moe, you said that people here had sent you emails but I'm not seeing any way to do so. Am I missing something?

I dont know how there doing it either, but I received a few, but the senders withheld their email. Im not able to respond to their email. I dont mind giving my email to anyone on this forum, but Im not sure how they retrieved it off this site.

When you make the original post and ask for any responses to be sent to your email ..GW is the one emailing you not people from the forum..the emails should ntch teh post on the thread...you can uncheck that option and you wont get email responses

I was just thinking that if you do want people to be able to contact you it would be a good idea to either list your email on your member page, or have a contact link from there. A lot of exchange of information takes place off the forum, where it's easier to have a private conversation.

OK I went ahead and revised my garden page.
Thanks