Kristi, now when I see that layer in a bulb I peel everything away to get to it and remove it, because I can hear you calling it "the funky brown layer" and I want none of that in my bulbs! Seriously, I agree if it's wet it's gonna be a problem eventually. Alana

I'm not thrilled about seeing a brown mushy layer in between healthy ones, either... it creeps me out. All I can think of is ROT!

I try to peel away layers until I get to healthy ones... but I notice that those mushy brown layers are usually part of a bulb that's not 100% healthy and thriving, anyway... weak bulbs, bulbs that never gain size back post-blooming, etc...

None of my big fat, green, healthy bulbs ever have this problem... it seems to belong to bulbs that bloom once, and then go downhill.

I agree... it's gonna be a problem down the road, anyway... better to remove it and take my chances that I can save the thing!

Kristi- I agree with Alana and Jodi. I feel like better safe than sorry and go ahead and remove it. As Alana says, it most likely will be a problem down the road. It if sets the bulb back some, so be it. Better that than it rotting from the inside.

-Frank

Kristi, I think if you could leave the bulb out of the soil for several days and see that the wet layer is drying out, maybe you don't have to peel it. But with the humidity you have there, I'm not confident that it is worth trying. And peeling is safer because then you know you've removed all the decay.

You're not the only worrier, though. I got my order of Hippes and I think I 'cleaned' them all a little too well. BUT, I have learned so much from this forum and it has applied to all my plants.

I was overwatering the red garden amaryllis in the front bed.

I also realized that I was overwatering my bird of paradise plants (potted). And I was severely overwatering my sago palm, also potted. No leaves left on that, but I repotted it and it now has some healthy white roots on the caudex so I'm sure it will make a comeback. I would not have had the nerve to pull it from the pot and check the root system if it hadn't been for this forum.

I think I really like geophytes because they give me more leeway with mistakes.

So thank you.

--Alana, thank you for the coop info, the bulbs I got are very big and I've got three scapes peeking out of the seven new bulbs and one leaf tip.

Now I just have to learn to keep my fingers off of the dormant ones and give them a chance to surprise me. (I've been telling myself it would be easier if I had more bulbs, LOL.)
G

I have never seen a bulb spontaneously recover from rot within, and particularly not in our cool damp climate. I, too, have noticed that these bulbs seldom make a good recovery. MAybe we should just toss them or send them back when we discover that. Another problem I see is bulbs that have aborted a bloom and it then spreads rot outward from that.

I usually pull them early. As soon as most of the surface of the leaf is yellow-ish the leave can easily be pulled because of a "predetermined breaking point", I'd call it. Then you can be sure that you've got all of the leaf and the part of the leaf that builds the bulb doesn't get damaged.

Genez, you are more than welcome for the info on the co-op - I'm happy to enable :-) They were nice big bulbs, weren't they? I was happy with all except Misty who had the funky brown layer (as Kristi says) but is all cleaned up now. It's more than made up by the Vera that looks like a soccer ball (size 3, though). I wonder where they came from. And yup, I agree, more bulbs will keep you too busy and you'll the sleeping ones lie. Alana

Over on the Container Gardening Forum we are discussing proper watering and plastic vs. clay pots... (yes, I sneak over there sometimes to learn from Al and the group)... and I recently learned a little tidbit of information that I didn't know.

It seems that even when a container's medium feels almost dry to the touch, there is actually still some good moisture that the roots can pull from it.

In one post, Al wrote:

"How to water is a subject dear to my heart. On its face, it seems pretty simple and straight forward, so how can you mess it up - right? Well, proper watering technique is inextricably tied to your choice of soils, and actually, to a lesser degree, your choice of containers. You cannot water properly if you have a soil water-retentive enough that you need to be concerned about root rot when you DO water."

He went on, adding some parts of a past thread on watering, the link to which I've added at the end:

* A generalization - the more often your planting needs water, the healthier the roots and the plant will be, as long as you don't forget to water. The need to irrigate frequently indicates good aeration and drainage, which insures that air is returning to the soil before anaerobic conditions cause the death of fine rootage. Watering also forces old, CO2-rich air, sulfurous gasses, and methane from the soil and pulls O2 rich air in behind it.

* Don't water on a schedule. Water when the rootzone is first dry to the touch. This can mean watering new plantings (shallow roots) when the lower parts of the container are still wet, but for established plantings, water when the soil at the drain hole feels dry - or use the sharpened dowel trick. Your sense of touch registers 'dry soil' when soils are still about 40% saturated. Plants, however, can still extract water from conifer bark and peat down to about 30% saturation - after that, water is held too tightly for plants to access.

* Your soil should allow you to water at every watering so that water drains freely from the drain hole. The best way to water a container is: Wet the soil until you 'feel' the container is about to start draining from the bottom and stop. Wait 10 minutes and add additional water until about 10-15% of the total volume of water applied in both applications exits the drain hole. The first water allows dissolved solids to dissolve into solution, and the second watering flushes them from the soil.

* If you cannot water as described above w/o risking root rot, your soil is inappropriate. You may be able to correct by adding a wick through the drain hole of the container to remove excess water in the PWT until the planting is mature enough to do it on its own.

I felt like this was a good place to add some "Watering 101" information... although, I could begin another thread on the subject, if anyone prefers...

Discussing watering and pots and mediums go hand in hand with the issue of rot and fungi... something we all will probably deal with at one time or another.

I trust Al for a number of reasons, but mainly because what he says makes a lot of sense. The science that backs up his ideas is solid and logical, and his own personal gardens and container plants reflect this... not to mention the number of people that go to him for help!

Anyway... the link below has some really good information... it's good reading!

Here is a link that might be useful: Al, do you have a 'Watering 101' post somewhere?

Thanks Jodi...I am very careful about watering. What I was talking about has to do with bulbs that we get...right from the supplier. This year I have noticed that several have had a brown layer under a healthy looking layer. Now if I did this to the bulb, that would make me question what I am doing wrong with water, but these are from the growers!!

I'm sure the newbies on the list will get a lot out of our recent discussions on medium, not planting too deep, etc. I just wondered if I was the only one who removed all brown matter!

You're the best. We're going to start calling you "Jodi the anti-dirt girl"! We need a link on this list to your medium info...

So....do you hyperclean your bulbs?!
:-)
Kristi

Kristi, I too hyperclean! I've cut away quite a bit of healthy material on some bulbs to remove that brown layer of wet tissue. The bulbs usually bounce back. I also remove and clean dead material from the basal plates to check for NBF and other signs of trouble. After losing so many I am very careful. I've switched one of my aphrodite and planted my Lavender Blue aussie bulbs in an orchid type mix with a stone wool and some cacti soil mixed in. I'm not brave enough to go completely with the bonsai type soil yet. Gonna try that with the next repot though.
Chaz

Kristi -

There is a product called Banrot that I learned about when I was growing Daylilies several years ago. I recall that back then, it was so expensive I didn't even bother learning more about it - but it got some great press in the Daylily forum and it was considered to be about the only product available that would cure crown rot in Daylilies. I recall the price was something like $200 for 5 pounds.

I just Googled on Banrot for fun and I see one firm is selling a 2 pound bag for $85 - add shipping. The mix rate for container plants is 6-12 per 100 gallons so it would go a LONG way. Lots of money but 2 pounds could be split 2-4 ways and not break the bank.

Go to www.greenhousemegastore.com to check it out. This is what they have to say about it.

"Banrot is a broad spectrum root rot fungicide in a 40% wettable powder configuration. It provides contact and systemic action for control of damping-off and root and stem-rot diseases caused by Pythium, Phytophthora, Fusarium and Thielaviopsis. Banrot can be used in both ornamental and nursery crops including bedding plants, foliage plants, and woody and herbaceous container and bedgrown plants."

I'm wondering if the systemic action would work for hipps to prevent/cure/minimize rot. If I'm not mistaken the Daylily growers use it as a soil drench when they suspect crown rot.

Is anyone familiar with this product or have any ideas one way or another regarding whether it could be of help with hipps?

Thanks

MikeP

Thanks everyone for chiming in! Just wondered if I was the only one who starts to sweat when a brand new bulb arrives from ths supplier with a potential "issue". I can manage to lose 2 bulbs a year from rot on my own just due to the fact that the Houston area is moist and we can get 7 inches of rain in one day.

I always have to think twice about cutting into new bulbs, but based on the replies from trusted Hippi pals, it looks like I'm not the only one.

THANKS!
K

I'm kind of OCD about cleaning new arrivals... I always peel away the outer dead layers to live flesh... and I remove dead roots and basal plate tissue, as well.

I check for any rot or other abnormalities, and as a general rule, I use a preventative dusting of Captan. It never hurts to prevent!

Since I switched mediums and began a preventative Captan program when potting any bulb, I haven't had any rot issues, at all. Not one. No fungi, and no fungus gnats, either.

As far as those mushy brown layers go... it depends on how far in, and how many, of the icky layers there are. If it's a single layer way in the middle of a bulb, I'll leave it, but I will dust well with Captan, and keep the planted bulb on the dry side until I see that the bulb is growing well.

If it's toward the outer layers, I get rid of it. There's no sense risking total bulb rot because of one easily removed layer of yuck.

If it's a bunch of yucky layers, I'm prepping for surgery! Cuttage does work, I have found... although, it does set you back quite a bit... and it's probably prudent to notify the company you got the bulb from, and get a replacement.

What causes this layer rot in between healthy layers? This is what I want to know. If we can find out what the cause is, perhaps we can figure out the best way to attack the situation when it comes up.

I just thought I'd add the Watering 101 information because rot and moisture go together like peas in a pod... and if we know we're watering correctly, and growing in a porous medium, then any rot issues will not be associated with our own mistakes.

I am still very curious to find out what causes this rotting layer in between healthy layers... why does a layer of bulb rot when the layers around it are fine?

Jodi, that is a really interesting question. I thought Lizalilly's comment about the aborted scape was interesting and suggestive.

If the idea is that the bulb contains the embryo of leaves and blooms, then an aborted scape could suggest that there is a problem in the bulb where the scape originated from.

Commercial bulbs have been grown for years and there could easily have been a problem with a leaf or scape associated with the now wet inner layer. As I was cleaning and potting mine this year, I couldn't get away from thinking of them as onions.

I've certainly come across onions that have mildew on an inner layer. Whether it is a result of a problem already in the bulb, or a leaf that has started to rot and the rot has moved into the bulb, would be interesting to know.

It could be something as simple as a leaf that is 'loose' at the neck of the bulb and water gets into the bulb at that spot and the decay gets a foothold at that layer. Or is it a tiny bit of mildew at the basal plate that isn't cleaned up and moves into a layer of the bulb?

I wonder what onion growers would say?
G.

The Hippeastrum bulbs are of course build like an onion. In German the word for "onion" and "bulb" are the same, "Zwiebel".
The leaf base builds one layer of the bulb before the leaf emerges. These layers grow and store (I guess mostly as starch) the carbohydrates build in the upper leaves.