Stuart got busy with his new job and singing in a band, or so that was the reason he gave for not posting any more. I think the real reason may have been the jerk that posted and belittled him, called him names, because of his butterfly collection, you know, pinned. After that blasting, he was never the same - too bad, because the jerk has never posted again. I really miss Stuart! We used to e-mail back and forth, trade eggs, and he taught me so much about leps!
Konkreteblond got kicked off the Garden Web, because she supposedly said something she wasn't supposed to on the Texas Gardening Forum. As sweet as she was, I'm sure she didn't post anything inappropriate! She has since reposted a few times on this forum, but never regularly like she used to do.
Madambutterfly? 'Don't know, unless the 100+ cecropias she raisedgave her burn out!
As far as I know, Carol is still in the same place in Alabama, running Biophilia Nursery and Nature Center. She got chewed out on the Wildlife Forum, somebody said she was too sensitive or something. I came to her defense, but she never posted much after that either.
I think it's VERY important that we all be kind and civil to each other, so we don't cause anybody to leave us!
Sherry

Thanks for the update. I echo your call. If we drove even ONE of these great members away with negative comments, I deeply regret it. If anyone reading this even THINKS about going negative on this Forum, please count to ten and remember MissSherry's comments.

mike

"I think the real reason may have been the jerk that posted and belittled him, called him names, because of his butterfly collection, you know, pinned."

While not anywhere's near as severely as with Stuart it sounds, I met with much the same attitude from quite a few people here when I first found the site because of my synoptic collection (which is NOT a "pretty bug" collection, but a true worldwide scientific reference collection that helped me establish lots of new life history knowledge for the professional lepidopteran community). It's been this sites loss, not mine, that pictures and the accompanying species accounts and data associated with those pictures of "pinned" specimens is not welcome here. I've learned to live with it, but that and other silly attitudes kept me from being active here much of the first year. I think I've only posted two pictures from my SC (although I could have posted hundreds), both were as links and with a warning so the silly people (what I call them) didn't have to look at the pictures if they didn't want to. I have no desire to share them here anymore, so it saves all of us the trouble.

But it's a fact that people who wear blinders miss a lot of knowledge they could have enjoyed and used to further their own lepidopteran efforts.
...

"somebody said she was too sensitive or something."

That bell rings loud and clear here  a lot! Many folks are way too sensitive (silly) about the above, the real life facts of the natural world, some of the aspects of learning about lepidopteran life histories, rearing them, and what the real short or long term effect of their efforts has on a species, if any, etc.
...

"I think it's VERY important that we all be kind and civil to each other, so we don't cause anybody to leave us!"

Agree 110% Sherry, but it has to work both ways. If you don't agree with a personÂs opinions or methods and just have to say something, be civil about it AND don't talk down to them. Loosing great people is very common on all public forums no matter what the topic of interest is because of the actions of a few. And most of the time itÂs the most knowledgeable people who are lost because of the silliness of the less informed (keyboard experts).
...

I can only speak for me, but I have found a lot of very nice folks here. People that freely share their experience to help others and with little or no regard paid to what "level" a person is at in their learning. That speaks volumes about these people. I don't know it all, not even after 45 years doing it. So I think there is much for me to learn here too.

Two things are etched in stone concerning the lepidopteran interests of all of us... we all started out as noobies, and old lepidopterists don't die, they just fade away. ;-)

I'm glad I gave the forum a second chance, and now number many here as Internet friends.

Larry

Someone should post this on the Hosta forum. There's a real know-it-all there who's actually told someone to go away and come back when they were a "real" hosta collector. Gardening isn't just about collecting. It's about getting your hands dirty, expanding your horizons and hoping it makes a difference in your little part of the world and, IMO, being kind enough to share your experiences in a non-patronizing way.

I agree whole-heartedly with Miss Sherry. A little kindness goes a long way and it will come back to you ten-fold.

G.

Gosh! I logged into the forum and the first one I opened was wondering where I've been! And, here I am! Alive and well. I have a little business that has required my time - that's the short form.

I had a couple of reasons to log on. First: I'm real concerned about how few Monarchs I'm seeing this year. Over the years I turned a number of people onto raising Monarchs. They're checking in with me to say that they aren't getting any Monarchs this year either. Although I'm out there every day and should be bringing in between 25 and 50 eggs per day, I have only 14 babies. Yesterday was my Garden Club meeting held in marvelous gardens - extensive beds of blooming catmint - and NO butterflies!

Second: Ordinarily I release a minimum of 85% of the eggs I bring in as flying adults. Last year my release rate was below 50%. I was losing them in chrysalis. What is this? A disease? My Granddaughter, Grace, and I saw the beginnings of this at a local butterfly house three years ago. We were doing a little volunteer work. When we realized that they had some sort of a disease, we left. We disposed of everything we could and soaked everything else in Clorox.

Over the past ten years, I've lost the Great Spangled Fritillaries, Red Admirals and Painted Ladies. When I came to this house, they were all here and I saw them commonly. Gone now.

I just hate this. I can't bear to even think about it. Please tell me it isn't so!

I brought my 14 Monarch babies to the Garden Club meeting yesterday and was given some time to talk about them.

Now that (the few Monarchs we have left) have begun to lay eggs, I can guarantee that the Park Department will rev up their mowers and mow down all the Queen Ann's Lace and the milkweed.

I just hate this!

Love,

Bunny

PS - My experience with the 100+ cecropias did not burn me out at all! I loved it! I remember the experience often and with enormous pleasure! Especially I remember the enthusiasm and support and good advice that I got from everybody on the forum! A joyful life experience for which I thank you all!

I don't know much about monarchs, Bunny, but Tdogmom does - when she reads this she'll respond.
If it took somebody mentioning your name to get you to post, we'll do it more often! Good to hear from you again! I'll always remember those bushels and bushels of leaves you brought in to feed the cecropias. I'm raising a few myself now, and I can't imagine raising as many as you did!
Sherry

I find this forum to be very very friendly compared to some others. The Florida Forum is friendly as well and there are some of us that visit both. Usually if I see something that would upset others it is usually asked by someone new who doesn't understand what the long term impact might be of whatever they want to do. I think most of us that have been doing this for a while TRY really hard to explain without insulting others. People come for advice and don't expect to be racked over the coals.

It is good to see former posters return. How long has this forum been active? I seem to remember a Stuart but can't recall if it might be the same one.

Bunny,

WELCOME HOME!!!!!!! I think that you supplied me with some common milkweed roots maybe 10-12 years ago to help me start some milkweed in our one-acre butterfly sanctuary. You should see it now. I have hundreds of common milkweed plants just waiting for the Monarchs( along with tropical milkweed, swamp milkweed, butterfly weed).

mike

I think Spike's GardenWeb started up in 2001 or 2002; some early member's registrations date from then.

stuart_s was quite active on the forum in 2002/2003 until his collection hit the fan. Last year or late 2006 he posted a picture of him performing on stage and was surprised we remembered him.

There were 10 or 12 member photos on his page, I forget who hosted it and I didn't save a copy, rats. I didn't get to save the ill-mannered thread either; it was yanked when it had hit 88 follow-ups.

It was in '04 or '05 that Koncreteblond had edited her "my page" to include a long rant on how her postings were supposedly too off-topic for the forum.

The forum is a "virtual club"; like actual clubs, people come and go. The not-missed member names are forgotten, the missed-member names are recalled as in Mike's list.

Now that (the few Monarchs we have left) have begun to lay eggs, I can guarantee that the Park Department will rev up their mowers and mow down all the Queen Ann's Lace and the milkweed.

So now the question is, to whom do we talk to get the Park Department to lay off the mowing?

Anyone have success in advocating for meadows?

Jeff

Larry-Gene, Garden Web seems to have started in 1996. The reason I know that is because a few years ago, I was trying to figure out when I first started posting. There was a time when one could post without having to be registered formally. I think, but am not positive, that you could just type in whatever 'handle' you were using each time you added a post. That changed in early 2000 or 2001, I think. I found this site that has some archived threads and discovered that my first post was in early 1999, not when my member page says I became a member.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://gardenweb.com

I sure do remember Stuart and I am so sorry to hear about this. It must have been during the time that I was computerless. And I actually received a "slap on the wrist" once for going off subject or saying something inflammatory but I wasn't given details so I was never sure what I said. I am a real non-confrontational type of guy so I was really annoyed but I just let it go.

I was even concerned about having tdog post pictures of my garden for fear that someone might be perturbed about its watering needs.

When I was a little boy I used to "collect" and it enabled me to acquire a lot of practical knowledge about leps and the kinds that were natural to my home state. But this is the first time I ever mentioned it on this forum because I once got flack about my hatred for aphids and was told to learn to enjoy them. Sorry, but as my little nephew says, "That ain't happening" or "That just ain't the way it's goin' down".

But I really feel badly for the hostility we can show at times and manage to make ourselves feel justified about it afterwards. I probably err on the side of being wimpy but I think it's better than rude. Murray

The whole collecting thing has ripples far outside this forum. Some (Glassberg et al) are positively anti-collecting, and can cite an instance or two where butterfly populations disappeared from locales after aggressive collecting. Their zeal to move people out of collecting and towards watching can sometimes be uncomfortable to me, even I'm no longer a collector.

Others (Kaufman) are more accepting and note that "more butterflies are killed on highways every summer than have ever been collected in the history of man." I personally lean this way.

I think the place we all can agree is this: habitat loss, and not collecting (or even cars), is by far the biggest threat to our beloved leps.

Jeff

It may be true that over zealous collecting has contributed to at least a short term decline in certain colonies of certain species of Lepidoptera (but normally not extinction). Usually by folks that are in it for the almighty buck they can make from selling those specimens to "pretty bug" collectors. They take every wild specimen found year after year after year and weaken the wild gene pool. Some species are more susceptible to this over collecting just because they naturally occur in small colonies, usually because of limited habitat but also because of species characteristics with some species. But generally, bug collectors are NOT going to wipe out a species, any more than hobby butterfly gardeners are going to affect enough of an impact to restore them. Lepidopteran species become extinct most often because of habitat loss, not over harvesting, and that habitat loss is nearly always caused by man. If some habitat and some wild livestock still remain, eventually, nature will repopulate all by itself without the help of man. Many previously listed extinct lepidopteran species have been rediscovered, and others eventually probably will be too. Some will not because their entire habitat is gone. Nature fixes what it can as long as man leaves something for it to build from.

I'm proud of my synoptic collection assembled over 40 years, and almost all of it specimens I or lepidopterist friends raised rather than wild collected. It has served me well establishing new species data, and as a teaching aid for hordes of budding new lepidopterists. So I will make no excuse for nor tolerate being chastised for having it.

If you can't be yourself, share your opinions or methods and enjoy the forum, then why bother? Being afraid to post is not enjoying the forum. Nothing gets my dander up faster than someone rudely chastising someone publicly and trying to force their opinions/methods onto them, and that includes forum Admin. I'll post as I see fit what I believe will benefit the lepidopteran community on this forum at large, and if someone wants to take me on because of it, have at it. I've gotten along just fine for near 60 years without this forum, so if I can't enjoy sharing my experience on it, I don't need it.

Most here seem to have been gardeners first and from that picked up an appreciation for Lepidoptera and rearing them. Just the opposite, I was a lepidopterists first and learned botany to be able to find and study wild lepidopteran life histories better. We all ended up on the same page, and that is all that matters.

Bottom line, folks need to live and let live and realize that as individuals our interests in Lepidoptera and how we approach them are not always going to be the same.

It struck me tonight that I've been online for eleven years now, and I just cannot believe the number of people I've met who know me, and whom I know. From a constricted, depressed little place, my world has opened up to be a living, breathing web of...friends? Could it be?

I think so!

Amazing.

I think I've met more cool folks online than I have in person, when you count it all up; and as for the jerks...well, let them go be jerks, I'd far rather concentrate on the people who realize that respect runs all ways.

This is one of the most friendly, responsive forums I've run across in the time I've been online. Very cool.

And the things I've LEARNED!! OMG! Every single post seems to be worth reading, and the replies are most always helpful--to the poster if not to me.

Hey guys??

Thanks. I'm having a great time here.

****HUGS FOR ALL****

Regarding the many pleas here to be nice, live and let live, etc. I'm a retired Professor of Communication and one of the most important things I learned early in my career and taught for over 30 years was to DISAGREE WITHOUT BEING DISAGREEABLE. I'm afraid that the annonymity of the internet brings out the worst in a few people. When the worst happens, I try hard to remember that their uncivil rant almost always represents a very small minority and always SAYS A LOT MORE ABOUT THE SENDER OF THE RANT THAN IT DOES ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF THE RANT.

mike

I agree with what everyone says, but I know we all have a bad day every now and then.

I appreciate those with pinned collections, but, as a novice, I get more from the actual "brilliant" photos and photographers we have on the forum than the pinned specimens that belong to the true lepidopterists. I know that Larry has a rather extensive collection and I applaud him for his studies spanning several decades. He, like many others before him, are responsible for a lot of what is known today about leps. It's just my personal thing to "cringe" when I see a dead anything. I'm one of those people who, if I find something crawling in the house that doesn't belong here, or is dangerous (like the fiddleback spiders), will carry it outside where it belongs. I guess I'm rather "zen" about it.

I would say 99% of the people here are friendly, helpful, witty, knowledgeable, experienced, willing to share, delightful people. I must admit, there have been a few....and I won't go into that. I owe an amends to that individual.

We are a collaboration of efforts here. I think we welcome newbies and experienced butterfliers alike. We readily share what we know without hesitation or persecution. Most of the times we can "agree to disagree". But, people will be people. No one can expect perfection, but rather progress in our ability to communicate without "ranting" AT someone. Many of us "rant" about problems in our gardens, etc. But that's a different rant. If we were perfect, we probably wouldn't be ON this forum, or on a more esoteric level, on this earth!

All of us can learn from our mistakes and go forward with the best intentions of providing a garden for the beautiful winged creatures we all love so much.

Susan

Well, I can definitely remember a number of people who are no longer posting here because of some insensitive comments and that is most definitely a shame...I tried getting them to just forget it and move on but they couldn't and these were folks I learned from when I first started out so it makes me feel even worse!

*sigh*

BTW: I've been in Thunder Bay, Ontario (as in Canada) for the last week and haven't had access to a computer which is why I haven't been posting.

We are all learning, or so I like to believe since I am always learning, and therefore, when people post nasty things, it doesn't hurt just the one but it hurts many.

I think that for the majority, however, this is a most wonderful group and I've become friends with such a lovely cadre.

MadameButterfly, it's been a LONG time since you've posted. Check out my blog! I've been doing a spot of work with Monarchs...and am updating it as I can. :)

tdogmom's Monarch blog

Here's Stuart's Page, if someone (who was on here when he still visited) wants to drop him an email and see if he has the same address still. Also, Konkreteblond's page. Exploring on Zebz's link (Thanks for the link, by the way!), it looks like the butterfly forum was originally established on December 15, 2000. Thanks for starting this thread, Mike. It has been a little bit of an eye-opener to me, having not been on this forum that long yet. I know that at times I have been less-than-pleasant to some members and posting non-members, though generally only if they're posting spam or beating down other members. Thanks again.
-Jmcat

Here's another long-lost member putting in an appearance!
Thanks go to Mike for his e-mail.
I just want everyone to know that nothing anybody said to me here had anything to do with my departure from this forum...My job has just been keeping me too busy to devote the time to butterflies and moths like I used to.
My member page had to be taken down because a nasty forum troll on the IMDb Message Boards was using it to harass me and post my personal information. I was also concerned that he might follow me here and harass people on this board.
I must say that spending time on a troll-infested board like IMDb makes one really appreciate the wonderful people here.

Stuart S.

We hope you'll find time in the future to raise leps and post on this forum again, Stuart. You helped me so much with my moth/butterfly raising when I was just an enthusiastic beginner! You should see all the cats I raise and release now!
I wonder whatever happened to Chubbly? He was another one that helped me get started that has left the forum.
Sherry

Thanks to jmcat for posting the member pages for Stuart and Konkreteblond. I sent a note to each and, as you can see, Stuart has already replied to all of us. If any of you have information on how to reach Biophilia, or Chubbly please pass it on. I remember all the wonderful educational and restoration of native plants that Biophilia is doing and all the wonderful creative writing that Chubbly contributed.
I didn't realize that Stuart helped MissSherry when she was a beginner. Also, it's good to hear that the uncivil criticism of his lep. collection did not cause him to leave us.

mike

Here's Biophilia's Page, and Chubbly's Page. To get to them, I just went to a member page for someone, took their name out of the address, and added the desired user name.
-Jmcat

Judy Burris posted frequently last year, and I haven't seen anything from her this year either. Wish she would "drop in" and let us know how her butterflying is going.

Susan

I'm surprised to see that so many of my past contributions are still here... such the butterfly house equipped with other totally useless products and my 'manifesto' on raising butterflies and moths (on the FAQs page).
I'm also happy that Larry has continued my most excellent idea ever... The Forum Members Album.

It's nice to see familiar faces and so many new ones.
I'd send my picture too, but after such a long time I don't feel worthy of still being considered a member.

Stuart,
Not that there is any activity level required to contribute a picture, but, if it helps you, think of all you've done for this Forum. You've contributed SO MUCH and made so many friends that you should contribute a current picture. After all it was you who conceived the Member's Album-your "most excellent idea ever."

mike

Stu - you're so well known here, I think it would be great if you posted your picture. In the future, we will want to see the photos just to remind of us of who our really big contributors, such as yourself!

Susan

Yeah, I was thinking recently about how we haven't seen much of Judy this year, too.
-Jmcat

Thanks again to jmcat who provided 2 more e-mail addresses of our long-lost members. My computer skills are limited ( as tdog could tell you) and I need help with locating these addresses. I sent e-mails to biophilia and chubbly inviting them to read how much we miss them on this thread and telling them we hope they'll rejoin us. The responses from Nadam Butterfly and Stuart ALREADY GOT MY HOPES UP THAT OTHER "STRAYS" MIGHT REJOIN US.

mike

Well, if it's strays you want, then you'll have to wait for them to fly north in late August and September. :)

Maybe some people just get tired of us! :)
Sherry

Tired of you guys? Never! ;) Too busy to sit down at the computer for so long, yes! Life started requiring more time, not to mention the tons of plants I had to tend to after deciding to "garden for butterflies"!

I actually didn't leave but did get kicked off by Spike because I posted about a Yahoo group for some local friends so I ended up joining Dave's Garden. I passed on what you all taught me and always gave you all the credit!

Another thank you Mike for sending me an email! I think of you when I see my beautiful yellow butterfly bush and the Mexican Sunflowers! I still have tons of stuff for butterflies but don't bring so many cats inside. I've only had BST cats this year tho and just a stray butterfly here and there. It's been pretty sad. I hope to clean out alot tho get a fresh start next year, and hope it's a better season.

I'm glad to know that so many of you that I considered "experts" are still sharing your knowledge!

I'll try to keep up and stay in touch,

Paige