Hello, geedavey. I do not grow those two but below are some people who, at one time, said they were growing them. Feel free to send them a GardenwebMail.

Joy:
jacklord
dave_in_nova
nikkie_in_toronto

Snowman:
kodiak_jp
thistle5 (was planning to add)
paddlehikeva
agberg

You can also call or email Camellia Forest:
ph:919-968-0504
email: CamelliaForest@gmail.com

Thanks. I called CamToo, and they said 4-6 feet wide and that they could get that tall with time.

Thanks.

These were both bred by Ackerman. In his book "Beyond the Camellia Belt" he says that both have a tendency to be somewhat columnar. He says that after fifteen years they will be 4 ft wide and 10 or 11 feet tall. I hope this helps.