If you have limited space go dwarf- Typical dwarf maxes out 6 to 8 ft tall and about 6 ft wide at maturity, standard trees usually grow from 15 to almost 20 ft @ maturity, depending on variety. Typical harvest on dwarf is between 70 to 90 fruit per tree per season@ maturity compared to over 500 pieces of fruit on a standard mandarin or sweet orange if managed properly. You need to consider space, & harvest- what are you gonna do with 500 per tree? What if you have 3 or 4 trees? Thats a lot of fruit. Also are you gonna want to harvest fruit from the top 10 feet of that tree on up to the top when you are 65 yrs old??? You gonna be climbing ladders then?? I see so many citrus trees with the fruit not harvested from about 8 feet up to the top- falls off to the ground then you have to pick up the mess.

Very good advice above. I love to eat citrus I know I'd max out my credit cards if I visited Four Winds and could purchase any variety retail without shipping. So far I'm only up to around 30 trees, most in containers.

I live in Fresno where citrus is [rotting] everywhere like dawgone mentioned, not being harvested. I just go around with my ladder and ask nicely and most folks don't care since they got all they needed from 10 feet and below.

Given that, I will never plant a standard again. Especially not a lemon or grapefruit that are much more vigorous and difficult to keep small (10 feet and under) once mature and in good soil. (Standard on certain small, slow growing mandarins is a different story).

Your pretty safe buying all the trees from Four Winds as they are all dwarf retail mail-order, but they do grow standards for nurseries.

Notice how dawgone said "Typical dwarf maxes out..." Even on their dwarf rootstock, certain varieties will grow much larger than others. Be sure you ask them for each variety your getting, plan that into your spacing.

Thanks for the advice. Sometimes I forget that more is not necessarily better. Any particular root stock that I should be looking for?

Just get anything labeled Dwarf from Four Winds -- that's why I said it's "safe". If you care to know, most of it's on Flying Dragon but last I checked the mandarin's are on a different Trifoliate. Anything sold in CA from other nurseries with non-4W stock labeled "semi-dwarf" is probably on C-35/c-32 Citrange. Sometimes non-4W growers will use C-35 and graft the tree low on the trunk and call it "dwarf" -- which isn't a good definition of the word. The semi-dwarf CAN be controlled to a reasonable height if you train and prune it correctly -- and stay on top of it. Requires a bit more skill but not too bad.

Even the 4W dwarf will require some "cutting" (not really pruning) you'll want to learn the difference between root-stock suckers and water shoots. They don't sucker much, but if one grows it will take over the tree. The water shoots can be a real problem is you let them grow -- I made this mistake on my 4W dwarf Navel. It wasn't growing all that fast and a water shoot was the only new foliage -- so I let it grow and figured I'd train it downward. I fought with that for over a year as that one branch sucked all the nutrients from the rest of the tree and it became almost as thick as the trunk! I started chopping it down last week /sigh. Now I'm in the same place as before it started.

Pardon me for budding in but what is the difference between root-stock suckers and water shoots? How would you identify it and what should you do with it?

Wish I lived by 4W... :)

Sandra

4w says they don't use Flying Dragon-- they wouldn't tell me what they used when I called them' they seemed to be secretive about it. BUT-- Fl. Dragon is a very good understock to bud or graft onto for dwarfing effect. You wont get the dwarfing affect with the standard trifoliate or the C-35 from my experience, they grow full

Rootstock suckers are shoots put out below the graft
(or budunion), and they are same as the original tree
and usually have different leaves. Remove them.

Water shoots or sprouts are loosely applied to shoots
growing agressively from the interior of the tree,
usually crossing established branches, and they may
appear after a rainey spell. They often rub other
(established) branches causing wounds and thus are
removed, hopefully at an early stage.

Hi tantanman,

Couldn't figure out why you would cut the shoots growing above the graft line given that they were from the new tree but this makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. :)

Sandra

Sandra SK290:

Trust me, you'll want to remove the aggressive water shoots (they point straight up). They funnel soo much of the tree's energy away, leaving very little for the rest of the tree. I made this mistake on one of my in-ground dwarf Navel from 4W two years ago, and this year I finally just took that entire huge branch off since the rest of the tree wasn't growing. Back then, I decided "that one water shoot is the only thing growing, so I'll leave it and train it to slow down the growth". I fought with that branch month after month, even during winter. If I pruned it back, it would aggressively resprout many (up to 20) more small branches at the prune point. I would pluck off the new growth, but if I left for 3 days they would be over 6 inches long during heavy growth (I measured it once). I let it grow, then tried to bend it downward (trying to slow branch extension), it would sprout many many branches at the bend point (where it went horizontal). Desperate, I tried choking it off a bit (tightly wrapping string, tape, etc) around the base of the branch. Nothing helped.

When I cut it off last week, it was maybe 3/4 of the trunk size itself (about 2" or so). I wasted so much of my time and energy and it set back the rest of the tree growth.

4W has some pictures of shoots or suckers to look at.

Hi cebury,

I looked at 4W's site for the pictures of the shoot and the only one they had was of the rootstock (if that's what you meant). I would love to see a picture of your water shoot if you have any. I'm having issues differentiating between a water shoot and any other branches that are growing in a citrus plant which you obviously want to keep.

Thanks!

Sandra

Hi Sandra,

Yeah they are showing a Sucker at http://www.fourwindsgrowers.com/solver/suckering.html. The water shoots above the graft line will look similar to that sucker, but it won't have the triple petals. -- You probably already know this.

Some will argue to keep water shoots, as they will provide great growth and can help you reshape the tree. One site suggested they will eventually become normal branches later, which you can then control. This may be so for others, but I could not control it with various pruning and training methods.

To help identify a water shoot (to remove) on young and maturing trees, is when it:

1) branches directly off the trunk (or between two existing branches off the trunk).

2) is from the lower portion of the trunk (although above graft)

3) is growing vertical and remains that way

4) has the juvenile "look" for a long time: very light green at first, then dark green, even after it starts to harden up, it keeps that "big vein" look.

4) and most importantly, is growing at a MUCH faster pace then the rest of the tree (esp vs. other newer branches). It will suck up a larger portion of the nutrients and thicken, lengthen, and leaf out faster (even larger leaves) and thorns.

Any new branches off the trunk will share many of those characteristics, but to a lesser degree.

Also, for many healthy full grown citrus, when you prune a very large branch it will sprout new growth that behaves very much like water shoots (and by definition may be). The thickness of the branch is providing a lot of nutrients and pruning is stimulating regrowth at and behind the prune point. But above I was describing shoots to remove on a young to maturing tree.

If you let it grow for a while, you'll know. It'll remind you of a young branch on steroids. Just don't let it go too long ;-) YMMV and someone may chime in with a control method I was not aware of.