I don't know why you couldn't take cuttings of the root stock stems. Just follow the procedures for any woody cuttings. Successfully rooted, they would be true clones of your desired root stock.

After they grow a bit, you can graft the desired variety on to the root stock, then cut it (the root stock back) once the grafts take.

If you are not up to snuff with woody plant propagation, be sure to do a bit of homework first. There are lots of ways to be successful but many opportunities for failure, too.

The person you find to graft the tree for you will probably also be your best source of information about the rootstock. It's not so important to have a clone of the rootstock, if you can determine what variety it is; as the performance of the tree is mostly determined by the scion; and if it is on the same type rootstock, you could expect the same performance. The big unknown (in trying to create a "clone" of the existing tree is that you cannot duplicate the exact environment or microclimate; but you can get close enough.

If you search you will find a lot of photos of "rooted trifoliate cuttings growing" but invariably they have not made much of a root system, or grown much if any, they are just staying alive. I'm guessing you have trifoliate rootstock. It is commonly used for satsumas.

Hi,

Thanks for the thoughtful answers.

Tantanman, why don't the trifoliate cuttings root well? Is the trifoliate the same as bitter orange rootstock?

The reason I wanted the clone rootstock and satsuma is because this tree is so hardy and the fruit so good, which lasts on the tree very well. I didn't want to change it. What I wish I could do is dig the tree up and move it to my yard. :) But, I can't. I suppose I could get someone to graft onto trifoliate rootstock and see what happens.

Where does one obtain trifoliate rootstock?

Thanks,

noss

Tantanman, why don't the trifoliate cuttings root well?
Just one of those things! I've read that the younger the plant they come from the easier they are to root. Cuttings from older trees simply don't root.
Is the trifoliate the same as bitter orange rootstock?
Trifoliate is one of the common names for Poncirus trifoliata. It is also often called Japanese Bitter Orange or Japanese Hardy Orange (sometimes Japanese Hardy Lemon). It is a close relative to the true citrus varieties, but the fruits are almost inedible.
Bitter Orange is Citrus aurantium which produces the bitter oranges used to make marmalade.
Both these species can be used for citrus rootstocks, but Poncirus trifoliata generally produces a hardier tree and is less susceptible to some diseases.

citrange, Thanks for the informative answers to my questions. I'll surely keep these posts handy for reference.

noss

It should be easy to tell which rootstock it is -- if it's Poncirus trifoliata, it will have small leaves (less than 1/2 the size of a Satsuma leaf) with 3 leaflets each, somewhat like tiny poison ivy leaves. If it's sour (bitter) orange, they will be as large as or larger than Satsuma leaves, broader, with big "wings" on the sides of the petioles (the little stem that hooks the leaf to the true stem of the plant).

If the rootstock sprouts have grown large enough to bear their own fruit, that also makes it easy -- Poncirus fruits are golf-ball size and fuzzy; bitter orange is as big as a store-bought navel orange. In either of those cases, you could plant some of those seeds, which normally will be true clones of the mother plant. Depending on how warm you grow them, they could be ready to graft in well under a year. By growing them in greenhouses with daytime temperatures approaching 100 F, our nurseries can have a grafting-size plant in 6-8 months, and a finished tree ready to sell in little over a year.

Hello Malcolm, This is interesting because the oranges on the rootstock get larger than a golf ball. I don't recall if they are as large as store-bouth navels, but maybe they are as large as the smaller navels I've seen. I was going to get one of the oranges to take a picture to show here, but my husband's mother passed away and while we were gone, the oranges disappeared. If the tree came from UL, as I think it may have, it may be on a different stock. The leaves on the stock are smaller than the tree's leaves and that's why it stood out, plus the rootstock is growing very straight and tall, unlike the Satsuma part of the tree.

I'll go look at it more carefully and see if I can get some leaves of the rootstock to show when my husband gets back from his work hitch and maybe Friday I could post pictures. I can't get the hang of posting photos and they are such a help.

How would the seeds be a true clone of the rootstock? Is the rootstock self-fertile?

I'm really getting some great input here and I thank you very much. I'm sure it's hard to deal with someone who knows nothing about grafting and very little about citrus trees. I appreciate your kind patience.

noss

Citrus rootstocks nearly always come true from seed, since they produce what are known as nucellar embryos. In most plant seeds, there is one sexually produced embryo, from sperm and egg, so the seedling will not be identical to either parent. But in citrus and a few other plants (mango, magnolia, hawkweed), the nucellus, which is a layer of maternal tissue surrounding the egg sac, develops some non-sexually produced embryos ("nucellar" embryos), which are genetically identical to the mother tree, regardless of pollen used. In most cases, these embryos are more vigorous than the sexually produced one, so it dies, leaving nothing but several clonal embryos. So when you plant the seed, the first thing you notice is that 3 or 4 or 5 little trees sprout from just one seed. The other thing you notice, later, is that they are identical. Many citrus varieties do this, but rootstock varieties are especially prone to it, which is one of the reasons we use them as rootstocks -- we can grow vast numbers of clones, producing vast numbers of identical grafted trees, without the hassle of rooting cuttings or some other method of vegetative propagation. Very convenient!

Malcolm, I am amazed by the information you have provided in just a few paragraphs and you have written in words that I can easily grasp and understand. Your answers have been so thoughtful and well-expressed.

This whole thread has been one of the best I've ever started. I've never gotten such great help with something like this from all concerned.

I'm not saying that I've never gotten any help with other questions because I have and a few are from this forum. It's just that I'm awed by the useful information pack in only a few replies and I'm so thankful. This thread is saved in my favorites in the citrus file.

I'm going down to the corner house to see if there might be one lone orange still hanging onto the rootstock, but there probably isn't. I'll hopefully be able to get some oranges if the house hasn't been sold by next season and I'm going to look into rooting the rootstock. Can't hurt.

noss

Well, Dr. Manners is being modest :-) Dr. Malcolm Manners is John and Ruth Tyndall Professor of Citrus Science and the chair of the Horticultural Science Department at Florida Southern College. Dr. Manners has helped to develop a wonderful Bachelor of Science Citrus degree there. Dr. Manners is an expert on citrus among other things, and we are very fortunate to have him on this forum :-) If I lived near his college, I'd be there getting PhD in Citrus Research. And, outside of helping to start a brand new biology degree, he does some pretty fantastic things to help third world countries become more self-sufficient, check out the link below. This is a wonderful, commendable, and honorable thing he has done in a very needy and dangerous part of the world.

Patty S.

Here is a link that might be useful: Professor Helps Farmers Grow Hope

Wow, Patty, Thanks for this information on Dr. Manners. I suspected he might be a teacher by the way he wrote his replies.

His replies were also free of pseudo-intellectualism, which makes his replies even more awesome, IMO.

Dr. Manners, You are more than worthy of admiration and respect, something which you elicited from me without my knowing anything more about you than from the way you wrote your replies to my questions. True greatness shows up. You touched my heart. Thank you.

noss