It does sound mysterious. I take it the falling leaves are still lush. You don't say what other kinds of plants you have under the lights, but if they are normal houseplants, it is worth noting up front that they probably require much less light than the citrus does.

I think the two likely suspects are still overwatering and low light levels, and the overwatering possibility increases if the light levels are low and the room is cool.

Watering: I don't water until the soil in my citrus containers feels dry to the touch (I sometimes go so long in the winter between waterings that the leaves actually start to curl from drought stress, since that is a better option than the other end of the spectrum). If the room is cool (below 70 degrees during the day, and especially if it is below 60 at any point), and/or the light levels are less than great, you should be especially cautious about watering the citrus before it is dry, since it will not be very active in utilizing the water. The fact that it is only losing leaves from two or three of its branches might be a sign that some of the root system is beginning to rot.

Light: How much light is it getting and what kind? For example, florescent tubes come in different wattages and produce a range of light types (coolwhite/warmwhite/daylight/gro-lite, etc., but, whatever kind they are, traditional straight 48" tubes do not produce a great deal of light. For the citrus to be happy under two cool white 48" bulbs, I'd say you would want its top to be no further than 5 inches away from them, and its leaf canopy should not be more than a couple of feet high from the lowest leaves to the uppermost leaves. So, how close to the light are the leaves that are falling off? Low light levels might be a problem, since the light from a bulb falls off very quickly (the inverse square law is in operation). You might have 1000 lumens at one foot, but at two feet, with the light lost to other leaves and because of the inverse square law, you might be down to 100 lumens or fewer, which is not enough for a citrus.

I hope this gives you some ideas!

As far as lighting goes i am using a fluorescent bulb, the tree is about 6 inches away and the bulb is on 12- 15 hours a day. The other plants i have are a cara cara tree, 2 pomegranate caimito apple, dwarf cavendish banana, dwarf red- green banana, and a blueberry plant. ( not all on the same bulb) I think i found the problem, the first half of the pot was dryish, but the bottom half was pretty moist, and compacted. so i changed the soil. The roots didnt appear to bad though, so hopefully it was the beginning stages. I have a freind water my plants for a month while i was away and i guess he thought that plants were aquatic organisms, because he overwatered beyond belief, enough to kill my banana tree. On a side note, I saw the post about a gritty mix, and wanted to try it, but as dumb as it sounds, i was unsure how to exactly plant in it. Meaning how to set the roots up in the mix. I didnt want to hurt the plant, so i used citrus soil again. Can anyone help me out with actually planting in the mix? Please, and thank you for previous help

Also the leaves falling off are the closest to the light, and i noticed today those 2 branches that are shedding leaves, the tips turned black, so i cut the black away.

Spider mites:-((((

Crazy this time of the year on fresh green growth. I would carefully look for them with a magnifying glass. I mean, you can barely see them and any new baby tip growth and green leaves will just fall right off. Try touching some new growth and if it just falls off, mites.

how do you get rid of them

i did some research on spider mites, and it doesnt appear to be that, there is no webbing, and the leaves arent turning yellow and brown like another article suggested.

Webbing is a late sign.

Look on the underside of the leaves for the mites.

The fact that you have not seen any webbing shows you are very in tuned with your plants. I have been growing citrus indoors for years and never saw webbing because I nip the problem in the bud. They are not like regular spider, that spin webs as soon as they are around. It can take weeks of neglect before spider mites even start to surface to the eye.

Please check your leaves, 'underside' with a magnifying glass and if you see any minuscule dots, stare at them for over a minute or so. If mites, they will move, I would pay special attention to the new leaves, 'underside', emerging near the dry heat light source on delicate winter growth.

If then you see nothing, I would treat it as if they have pest and spray with a good insecticidal soap and or wash every leaf off.

If the leaves stop dropping , then you have figured your problem.

If not, then I would move on to root issues, especially if the black tip you talk about starts to recede back toward the trunk and the whole branch dies off. In fact, if this is happening now,' the whole branch dying off', then I would address your roots first and be concerned about your soil mix, or watering technique.

Mike

I woke up this morniong, and another inch or so has turned black on the one branch. i cut i back. I am now thinking it is a root problem. I was away for a month, and had a freind watering my plants, and he gave all my plants a full vase which is approximately half a gallon of water every week about. i just repotted it, a day ago, and when i took out the root ball it was surrounded by hard packed wet soil. i took the loose soill out, and took oof as much as the packed stuff as i could before i ended up with a bunch of roots, but then stopped there for fear of harming the plant. The plant was dropping about 5 leaves a day, and the day after replanting only one fell. I woke up this morning and three fell over night and the branch continued to blackened. what should i do?

Hi Sure:

That is why we always ask for detail:-)

If you had said this before, then we could of suggested a potting method for you days ago and for sure know it was root issues. But that is ok and it never hurts to be on the safe side and always look for pests.

If your plant is on it's way out, then I would take whatever means is necessary to stop the roots from dying even further, as soon as possible.

There are many opinions as to what to do now that the plant has been put through so much stress so often.

A repotting again will eventually be in the working, and you can learn all about soil mixes and various methods over time from many good people here.

I personally would just leave it alone and make sure it is getting good light until the spring comes for a major repot. The damage is already done.
Till then, you need to find ways to make sure that the mix is drying out properly, and then getting completely moist at the watering, letting it run through the bottom when you do so.
Citrus do not like wet feet, and neither do they like soil that completely dries out to the point of wilt. A good open mix that does not compact will achieve this for you. and alleviate your concern.

Also make sure the plant is getting plenty of light to help it come back strong. Did you repot it and then just put it back under strong light right away? If so that too is unneeded stress.

Also you could ask for suggestions into using a good mix and maybe learn how soil works in containers before another repot at the container forums. You will have to address the root ball once the plant gains it strength back.

I am sure many will be by to guide you, but as for me, I would try and find out ways not to stress it any further while the remaining green growth finds a way to start compensating for the lost growth. It can survive if it is not stressed any further.

Please let us know how it goes, as you find ways to stop putting unwanted stress on your tree and find a way to correct the root and soil problem.

Good luck

Mike

Since you recently repotted, 'and your citrus is stressed,' repotting so soon might do it in for good.

You've ruled out Mites, but please check for Scale Bugs. They're hard to spot, at times, especially, Brown Scale. They look like bumps, can be scaped off. At first glance, one might assume the lump is part of a branch.
I hope I'm wrong, but it's better to be cautious than not. If it turns out your citrus has Scale, you need to isolate, ASAP, and inspect neighboring plants, despite type.

Can you post a picture?

Mike is so right about Mites this year..They're out full-force, difficult, if not impossible to see, especially if webbing isn't present.

Did you ask the person who cared for your citrus, while you were away, the number of times he/she watered?

What size container is your tree in?

My citrus are potted in potting soil and amended with soil-less products like Peat, Coarse Sand, and Perlite.
Each container, 'tree pots' is large enough for new root growth, but not over-potted.. Soil dries 5-7 days after being watered.
Rootstock should be removed ASAP. For one, it takes nutrients meant for the citrus and, if grown too a long period, when removed, scarring is left on the trunk.

Did leaves start falling after your friend took over?
Also, you mentioned your tree was next to a heater? Was the blackened branch close to the vent? Toni

I think its a safe bet that it isnt scale or mites. i examined as best as i could. He watered it about 4 times with anywhere between a half and three quarters of a gallon at a time. The tree is in a 25 quart container i believe. I have it in cactus soil. Here is a picture
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/1985olds/bad.jpg
Notice the bare branches, those are the ones that ar turning black too. Sorry about the unclear picture.
I really have no idea what to do, and really dont want to lose the tree. How can i help alleviate stress from the plant other than leaving it alone

found this stuff at the point where the branches me the trunks, any idea what is is, hears a picture
{{gwi:570881}}

Sure:

I hope they are working out ok.

Hi Toni:-)) Stay warm and enjoy it while we have it! Bring out the shorts and the trees and watch out for falling squirrels out in full force lately..lol

Mike

i took precaution and use insectticidal soap to kill any pests that might be present. i am really getting worried about the tree

i found a little bit of webbing in between branches, so i showered the plant in water and then gave another dose of insecticidal soap, anything else i should do

I think you will find that the soap solves your problem. Please let us know even if it does since I'm curious. I had 2 trees doing this earlier in the season. I searched all over for webs and the mites themselves (with a magnifying glass). I never saw any. I sprayed them both anyway - first with water - all over in every nook and cranny, and then with a horticultural oil (rosemary I think was the main component). Neither one dropped a single leaf after that - they had been dropping 3-4 per day.

I've also lost leaves that looked healthy from a sudden change in watering regimen - I read that citrus prefer things on the dryer side (which I didn't know before) so I waited a few extra days before watering one of my larger trees - it was *not* happy with that decision and I lost maybe 40% of its leaves over a 5-6 day period. They were all still green when they hit the floor with no sign of stress (it had been pruned and had no new growth so I didn't see any droopy leaves - it just abscissed them suddenly).

If you continue to drop leaves at the same rate after another 2-3 days (and you're sure you sprayed it completely) then I'd check for water issues (either under or over).

Sorry, I forgot to say - I don't see anything odd in the photograph you uploaded but it is kind of blurry. What were you thinking looked odd?

If it is any of those blurry dark spots then can you get another photo uploaded with Macro mode on the digital camera and a clearer shot? Some of those *could* be scale but they don't look like it with the blur. If you scrape your nail across the dark spots they should all stay in place and not move - if so they are not scale and everything looks normal.

Also - if you could take a few pics of the dropped leaves that would be helpful. Front and back with macro mode and make sure they aren't blurry. Also I can't really tell from the pic but if the petioles are still on the tree then take a closeup of those as well - front and back. I've lost a few leaves to scale that sat on the petiole but usually those will discolor before they drop leaving the petiole on the tree (typically with the scale still on the petiole).

that "stuff" peals off, and that was my phones camera, not a digital i dont own one. i hope this works im very nervous about this tree, it was my first

If the dark spots come off when you gently scrape them with a finger nail they are most likely scale. If they are old they will feel dry and come off rather easily. If they are new they can be squishy and moist and might want to stick to the branch a little more. They can be dark black, brownish, tannish, reddish, etc - a wide variety of colors. They can blend in *very* well so make sure you check the branches, trunk, and leaves carefully (under sides as well, particularly at the petioles and on new growth).

I had never heard of scale before when I had a tree that was in decline... I found some closeups online and then carefully checked all over the tree and found it to be heavily infested. You don't notice them if you don't know what to look for. I picked off / washed off several hundred of them and the tree bounced back. In that case though the leaves were yellowing before dropping. Scale doesn't usually cause green healthy looking leaves to drop. However it is a problem on indoor container citrus so do check and try to control them.

I didn't have great luck with oils alone to control scale. I think the oils kill the babies that are crawling around before they settle down but the scale itself has a protective layer (that's the part you see) so I generally had to scrape all of those off, then spray, then spray again a few weeks later. After that I had a few months without any noticeable scale.

I still think mites are your problem and will probably be controlled with the spray.

Oh and one more thing just in case - the first few times I picked off scale I would just kind of flick it on the ground because it was gross and because I didn't think they could move once they had built up their protective shells. Later I read that ants will "harvest" the scale by moving them around and then eating the sticky stuff they leave behind - sure enough the ants were picking up the scale I would flick on the floor and putting them back on the tree - I saw them going up and down the trunk until I sprayed. Gross. In other words - dispose of the scale properly and out of reach of any ants.

i honestly think i have a combination of mites and scale, so i have been peeling it off, and showering the tree and spraying it, but now it seems that it has made its way to my cara cara tree

i hjave been hosing down the tree, and using the insecticidal soap everyday, how long do you think until i see results

Don't hose it down every day. There's no need and it could cause other problems (fungal problems, overwatering). The mites should have been solved with a single hosing down followed by a single soap application. They are easily controlled with washing.

The scale might take a bit longer and some scraping with your nail. If you want to spray repeatedly I would wait ~7 days between applications (or follow directions on your label). Their eggs hatch over a period of 1-3 weeks so you will want to spray maybe 3 times, once per week, and in the mean time pick off any visible scale.

If the problem was mites you should have seen pretty much immediate improvement. Especially if you sprayed down the tree and removed any of the weakened leaves with the water jet - very few if any should have fallen after that.

If you are still losing *green healthy looking leaves* then it is less likely that the problem is mites and more likely some kind of water stress. If the leaves are yellowish at all then it still could be uncontrolled scale or issues with nutrients etc.

when i hose it down, i cover the soil with garabage bags, so no water passes through, and there has been no drop after that, which is a good sign.

now my tree is just being confusing. It loses about a leave every other day, but there is new green growth starting on the branches. Is this good or bad

New growth is good. It sounds like the tree is (was) in stress mode. I suggest you leave it alone for a week or two and don't water it. In fact, I would just keep it a bit less than semi-moist. Don't feed or disturb it but keep a close eye over it. I would bet that it will come back. Oh, the "black" spots mean that some branches are dying or are dead. Don't cut them off just leave them alone until the tree gets over it's stress. Good luck.

Redshirtcat: I must say that it feels really nice to see what you are posting and your willingness to help out here:-) Amazing to see such kindness and support spread from you to surewhynot along with everyone else here.

Just beautiful. I am enjoying this thread and seeing the help offered. Good job.

Mike

Alright thank you, i will continue the waiting game. I will be sure to let you know how it goes, thanks again so much, i really appreciate it

its still dropping a good amount of leaves, but has new growth
{{gwi:570884}}
I think the mites might be coming back, but could it be something else?