Mmmmmm...bat guano... ;)

Also let me get a shot out to your horticultural teacher who killed your tree...strong work, champ...

Ok sorry been a long tedious day for me...

Coincidentally, I am going to start with a soil-less mix that is largely composed of fired clay too, since I cannot find chicken grit without oyster shells to save my life around here...and if you have used your mix with other plants that are picky about drainage and air circulation to the roots with good results, then I would think your mix will be fine...Everyone has their opinions and their favorite formula...However I do have one question for you: why so many different components? Once again, not really clear on the role of each component, but I would not use vermiculite, I think it compacts over time. Why add perlite if you are using the fired clay? Seems unecessarily complex to me, but I am a lazy gardener and meybe I am missing something....?

And is there a particular reason for adding the sand compared to what you'd use in your other plants, if I read your post correctly?

Chameleons are very cool creatures, how long you been raising them?

Hope you get your trees ok...

The sand is reallt for nothing...just the knowledge of the sandy soils that citrus groves frequent.I use the perlit,b/c the clay granules can still be a bit heavy.I actually adopted this mixture for use in planted dispay terrariums,with planted backgrounds.The terrariums had dartfrogs,so the mix had to be able to be wet,drain,and hold up without decaying.This mix had some other ingredients int he terrarium,like I nixed the perlite for aesthetics and used more vermiculite,I also used osmunda chunks.I like a complex mixture for its appearence,the soil should look 'natural', I suppose this lloks that way to me.I also have to consider the chams will be laying their eggs in my mixes.It has to be loose and drainind and can't contain any chemicals or slow release fertilizers.I will only use a hollytone(orgainc),or miracle grow type that can be leached out and/or absorbed within a few weeks.I have trouple with scale in the winter,b/c I have soooo many trees and tropicals inddors and I can't use pesticides with the chameleons.I use insecticidal soap and a toothbrush to keep them in check and prune off badly infested areas.When I move them out doors though,I'm hitting the plants with a strong pesticide and rinseing them weel with the hose.That should fix the little boogers!!!LOL I hate cale.I avoid mealybugs,aphids,whitefly...all the other nastie,but scale hits me without fail.The myer I had the first time(I was all of 14-15) was huge to me(about 6.5') and it would get whitefly and stop growth in the winter.I had no real light for it and did not have experience with grow lights yet or a budgett to buy them.I figured my horticulture teacher would keep it in the greenhouse,but he took it home for some reason and got lazy about bringing the 25 gallon plant back to the warmth it needed to live.It was a wonderful tree in the summer though.It was given to me by another teacher,who found it too big.I adopted it at its current size,but thought it would do best in the hands of an 'expert'.I far surpassed my horticulture teachers knowledge of tropical plants....even then,I had already grown many carnivores and orchids,other rarer epiphytic plants,and planted terrariums.I have been workijng with chameleons extensivly for about a year,but have kept them before briefly.Melleri are a full-time endeavor and a very endearing species.They have come in needing all sorts of care.I have had to give them up to three meds at a time and injections,forcefeed them,soak wounds daily,several hundred dollars in vet bills.I love them though.They ar enot difficult as far as chameleons go,once they are acclimated.Acclimation is next to impossible,b/c the exporters and middlemen treat them like crap.They collect them by beating them with sticks out of trees,the house them with no food or water in hardware cloth cages,they tear their feet and faces to the bone on hardware cloth,then they hav broken bones from capture,they have parsite loads that bloom in overpowering numbers.b/c the animal is so stressed and now can't keep the parasites in check,and they usually die.Only 10% make it past 30 days in captivity.They are a social chameleon,actually showing stress and depression when not with others of their kind,they communicate with infrasonics(low booming sound like elephants that we can't hear).Mine all eat from hand and reconize me,the will react to a new face being in the room.I have 5 melleri right now.Visit the www.melleridiscovery site and check them out.My friend and the undisputed queen of melleri,Kristina Francis,is the editor of the site and has done a fantastic job.She is also an artist.I think her website is www.lucasfrancisstudio.com.That may not be correct,so e-mail me,if you'rte interested.I've got to go clean now....more babble another time...Thanks for reading my 'books' LOL

You certainly sound like a dedicated hobbyist--it's nice to know that some people really care about the earth's creatures...I had no idea these critters were so mishandled when captured. Thanks for educating me. My favorite reptiles are the uromastyx ( uromastyces?? pl.?? :)...a friend had one that would come to you when you called it, smart litte bugger...

Well, your rationale makes perfect sense then. I am sure there are many who will dispute, but I have found sand to not be a great additive for container soils and that it makes things kinda heavy without great drainage/aeration over time--which really doesn't make a lot of intuitive sense to me, it seems that sand would drain well, wouldn't it? Though, apparently some people use it in their mixes without difficulty...I have stopped using it altogether for a while now for any container mix. But that's just me, and I haven't tried a very coarse sand either--just plain ol' sand.

I live in California--I'm a native (which means I don't know what it's like to have real seasons and we call it stormwatch if we get 1/4 inch of rain lol) and have lived in every major metro area save for San Diego--and there are plenty of thriving citrus that are not on sandy soil at all, if that helps you. Much of CA is horrid hard clay...though from what I gather much of Florida is sandy...

Hmmm, I think I will try to add some perlite to my fired clay mix now that you mention it...I'm not too worried about weight, I actually need some bracing for the fierce wind with winter storms, but it might make it go farther that way....since perlite is comparably easy to access...and much lighter to just tote around...

So did you actually get your trees from growquest yet?

Nope, no trees yet an dthey haven't charged my cared either.I am going to try to cancel the sale and buy elsewhere.I just hate that everywhere there are snakes lurking...whatever happened to good business ethics and reputation?Oh well.I guess I will nix the sand then,it relly is heavy at times and useless in an already good mix.It might be better than clay.We have clay here also and in Maryland,where I grew up,though it probably bakes less hard than that in CA.I've had Uro's,got rid of them,b/c I thought it was too much work to chop all of the fresh veggies....now I medicate chams and chop veggies for the roach colonies anyway...LOL.I breed 8 species of tropical roaches as feeders for the chameleons.Some are over 3'' long!!!They are very clean and odorless,far superior to the crickets of yester year.I can't wait to get soem nice myers though.I LOVE the trees for their form and fragerence.They are just perfect for chameleons,minus the spines,but I can prune the spines off.Myers are far less spiny than say,Lisbon.I've got a trip to pack for...talk more soon.BTW,I just dumped a palm I had planted in miracle grow,CHC and perlite and the mix was fresh as the frist day,2 years later!!!It was about 1/3 soil to 1/3 perlite,to 1/3 CHC.

ok, guys, so I am in the process of coming up with soil mix as well with help of good folks like rick james, bencelst and such. Here's what I am planning to use, but I don't know yet what proportion I would/should use:

+ Redwood compost
+ Perlite
+ Kellog's Amend potting soil
+ Peat Moss
+ Mix Gypsom or Dolomite at the bottom of pot as I already have 'em.
+ Orchid Mix (possibly)

Questions:

+ Rickjames, where do you get fired clay from in our area? Please provide exact name of store and product. Thanks.

+ Should I really go with sandas well? Bencelest seems to be using it. I've started hating sand. My Femminello Lemon which is still in original pot has already starting dying for some reason (more and more leaves have started wilting for some reason and I suspect that sand based potting medium held too much water during rainy season). Also, other day, I was at nursery and lady there said that she does not like sand based medium as it holds water for too long.
What do you guys thing? Does soil hold water for long time in pots? I tend to think so (without any solid proof, though, just speculation).

+ People mention about peat moss. Is it the same thing that HD and Lowes sell which is Spangom Moss? Can I use Spangom moss? The other thing I've noticed about it is that it tends to harden a lot if it dries up. I'd suspect that same thing would happen w/ peat moss and would that cause problems in potting mix if soil in pot misses regular water feeding schedule?

Any suggestions on my potting mix?

Thanks.
nkt3838

nkt,
Normally I am hesitant to be so specific but given the fact that we live in the same area/have had the same miserable rain and I know that WN soil/tree--my quick fix recommendation if you are not repotting right now would be to *gently* slip your ailing tree out of its pot to eyeball the soil and roots--if it is wet looking and nothing else is obviously the problem-- then just slide the tree back in and them place a *wick* into a drain hole--I use a 6-8" strip of cloth and a small stick to jam it into the soil bottom maybe and inch or two and let it dangle...this may help you keep your roots from rotting and more damage to your tree... and shield your tree from additional moisture...this is assuming that your tree is not bone dry of course....when you slide your tree to check you'll drop some clumps of that sand but be careful to do this on the tree's side or support the soil mass somehow or you could rip the bottom off your rootball...no more time now will check back tomo....

HTH.

nkt,
I am getting Turface MVP from Ewing Irrigation in Fremont, but they have an outlet in San Jose too...you can email me for the number...When I first called to inquire, they had it but I was away this weekend...and now it's gone :( Supposed to be more in their warehouse middle of this week...$12 for a 50 lab bag, I think I have heard that it is maybe 1.5 cubic feet. I am going to try a mix of Turface, perlite for cost effectiveness and weight reduction, and some fine pine bark. My concern is water retention and not drainage with my mix....Al are you out there monitoring this? :)

been shopping at home depot huh?

I would urge you to consider using more chunky/large particles and less potting soil, sand, or peat in your above mixture because they will interfere *eventually* with aeration and drainage, but that's just my opinion...bencelest has beautiful trees and maybe we'll hear from him...My goal is to NOT eventually transplant into successively larger containers or the ground....what you choose may have a lot to do with what your ultimate plan is...

why dolomite or gypsum at the bottom? I would think a little distibuted throughout would be best...Dolomite will give you both Ca+2 and Mg+2.

Sphagnum moss is the peat moss that most refer to, and yes it gets hydrophobic when really dry... I haven't found it to be too hard to rewet b/c I use it sparingly and I tend to really mix it in thoughly...though it is hard to do if it is the primary ingredient...

BTW did you know that curry leaf plants are one of major host plants for the psyllid that carries citrus greening disease?

I just got here, but you're making very good sense, Lana. ;o) You don't need me here.

I don't use peat, sand (unless it's very coarse - approaching BB size), or compost in any of my tree soils. Sand (the fine stuff) is a peculiar soil amendment. At the same time it can improve drainage, it usually always has a negative affect on aeration. Compost is in the same category, as far as I'm concerned. It adds virtually nothing in the way of nutrients, breaks down into soup very quickly, & generally holds too much water for container plant culture if used in any appreciable quantity.

Al

Hey Al! Glad to see you here!--We need someone to keep me in line :)

Al since your here(I've read you great posts in the container forum), question about using just orchidmix for citrus. What do you think about Shulz's orchidmix (other then being way to expensive). It has fir or pine pieces, arcillite(fired clay) and charcoal. I know you like the fir and clay but not sure about the charcoal. Also would you add anything with this.
Also what is the best way to check watering when using these non-soil mixtures. One really can't do a finger test like you can with regular soil. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I think container soils, especially those for woody material, are all about structure and little about what they're made of, as long as they're not phytotoxic. I grow several plants in screened Turface only, with excellent results. Many bonsai growers grow in pure akadama or kanuma, both fired clay particles from Japan. For most trees, I use a basic mix of three ingredients: Pine or fir bark, crushed granite, and screened Turface. Most plants with leaves will do very well in a mix of equal parts by volume of these ingredients. Needled plants, might be 2 parts of granite & Turface and one bark, but basically, anything will do very well in this basic mix. I have very lush and healthy houseplants in this mix, too.

I have often used charcoal in very small containers that are very difficult to keep hydrated & require wicks or saucers to keep the plant moist without knowing why I use it. I just know it works. Within the last week or so, I have had a discussion with someone from GW (Forgive me for forgetting his name. I get tons of mail from folks here & I deleted his message twice, after replying to it) about a specific type of charcoal in soils. He gave me a very interesting link to an analysis and study of terra preta soils. These are soils in which ancient indigenous peoples introduced a type of charcoal into the soil; and to this day, the soil remains much more productive than surrounding soil. I may not be getting this exactly right, but he has a store of a specially made charcoal (not activated charcoal) that he has saved for many years in his attic (from a water purification plant). He has promised to send me some, and I am excited to be getting it. It's possible that he will read this & step up; or, since I just started to read this forum, perhaps he's already here. I will post info as it becomes available.

The charcoal retains its structure very well, so there is no reason not to use it as a soil ingredient, as long as its particulate size is appropriate. I still have about 25 conifers to repot this spring, and I will (hopefully) be able to try some of it in the soil mix & evaluate it over a couple of years.

{{gwi:4810}}
This is a pic of what I grow trees in. It drains so fast you can run a hose on the soil w/o overflowing the container. The Turface and pine bark hold water fairly well, and the soil is about 70& porous with about 35% being air porosity. You guys in the hot and windy parts of the country might eliminate the granite or add extra Turface & bark to compensate for the rapid drying out of soil.

It's a fairly inexpensive soil to make, but it does have drawbacks: Finding the ingredients or substitutes (but you only have to find them once) ;o), it works best screened through insect screen, it requires frequent watering and fertilizing (a good thing from the plant's perspective - maybe not so good for the sake of convenience.

Checking if plant needs water: When using a very fast soil, you quickly learn how to water, and, it's pretty difficult to over-water. Testing at the drain hole to see if it's wet is a good way, as is inserting a thin wood skewer or chopstick deep into soil - leave it there if you wish. If it comes out damp, don't water.

Al

Al (and others),

How does this mix look? I found some Profile (smaller than Turface?) at a local Agway. The best stone match I could find was 3/8" granite, which I rinsed in the picture. The stuff at the top is Pine Bark Mulch.

{{gwi:577915}}

1) Would this make a good mix?
2) Is the 3/8" granite too large? Would perlite be better?
3) What ratios would work well? I have a new Meyer Lemon and Bearss Lime on order.
4) Do I need any specific mirconutrients, or will mixing in some Osmocote and using my acid-loving miracle gro when watering work?

Thanks! Last year I tried going from an all soil/bark mix to a mix with small rocks, perlite, and large pine bark nuggets. The Meyer lemon never recovered and I want to do it right this time.

Thanks!

It looks pretty close to being a good choice, but I think you're right about the granite. It's going to be too large. It would help to know about where you live, too. You should include that info in your user profile to make it easier to offer specific advice. Your weather might have an impact on what soil components are appropriate.

If you can't find the smaller granite, the perlite should work well. Again, it's difficult to guess at the most appropriate mix of ingredients because I don't know where you live, but I think that something like
2 bark
2 Turface
1 perlite
gypsum
would give you a nice, airy mix that your trees will appreciate.

I can't advise you on the micronutrients, except that you should be sure the plant is getting ALL the essential elements. I use STEM and Micromax, but they're usually difficult to come by. Earth Juice makes a product called Microblast that is a possibility. Don't look to the MG to supply the minors though - it is fairly incomplete. Neither the MG nor the Microblast have Ca, so keep that in mind (that's why the gypsum in the soil) Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 fertilizer has ALL the minors, and if you want a lower N level, you can combine it with Pro-TeKt 0-0-3 and fertilize at a lower rate for the 9-3-6. The Pro-TeKt has an added advantage of offering silicon, which makes for a sturdier plant.

Good luck - you'll do better THIS year, I bet!! ;o)

Al

Here is a link that might be useful: Find me here, if you have more questions (or via e-mail again)

Thanks Al - that was a very fast reply! I appreciate your advice.

Okay, I'm going to go with the ratio you suggest. I'm in central NJ in case that changes anything.

You're going a little over my head on the micronutrients - I only pulled that phrase from one of your other posts. Thank you for the breakdown - I'll try and find the Foliage-Pro 9-3-6. As for gypsum, how much are we talking about using? A handful or so in a 10-14" container? I'm assuming I can just find that bagged near all the other fertilizers, right?

I'm excited to see this mix in action, as I have no experience (outside of last year's failed attempt!) at these soilless mediums. Thanks again.

It was fast because I was working on getting my e-mail under control when the message came in. ;o)

Gypsum - use a tbsp/gallon of soil or 1/3-1/2 cup/cu ft.

Espoma makes it in small bags that cost as much as 50 lbs, or get it in the big bag by the floor displays of fertilizer & lawn care products. It's inexpensive.

To find the fertilizer, use the search words Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 and you can compare prices in your results. I bought it from New England Hydroponics.

Al