I envy your option of putting 'em in the ground. I am in MN, and the sheer amount of babysitting over the winter is daunting.

pH could be a touch lower, but nobody can argue with your success over the years. An easy experiment would be to throw some soil acidifier in and wait. Cheap and easy. The consensus seems to say to stay away from aluminum sulfate and just go with a sulphur. Aluminum toxicity in containers from build up, maybe?

My trees never much liked fish emulsion. I only have two small trees, but they sulked until I found a water soluble combination of ferts at a hydroponics store that was for hydro and soilless mixes (Pura Vida and MagICal for magnesium, iron and calcium). I could have used MG and a supplement, but I am trying organics even though most seem to have poor results with organic ferts. It is expensive, but for two trees, it is not unreasonable.

There are some threads in the container gardening section on fertilizing that may help, but generally, people seem to recommend a supplemental fert for micro nutrients and minors, e.g. magnesium and calcium.

I saved the tough choice for last: If you have been potting them up successively, have you ever root pruned? Basically, you thin the large roots which take up a lot of space and do not absorb any nutrients, and force the tree to develop a finer, more densely branched root system. How about bare rooting to refresh the soil in the middle of the rootball? The soil in the middle can turn to concrete over the years, and that can cause all sorts of problems.

Like I said, poke around in the container forum, and you might get some more ideas. Or someone else might chime in with a better answer . . .

Good luck!

My trees never liked Fish Emulsion either...

Basementarboretum, I thought that MagICal already had calcium in it?

I like your post..Great info...

In fact, Tim, I also think the PH is way to high for citrus. I would start using vinegar at a rate of one capful per gallon at every watering....

You can grow perfectly healthy trees right in the pot. In fact for many, containing them in a pot is much better for than keeping them in-ground for many reasons, even in warmer climates..

Tim, make sure your soilless mix has not caked up over time,compacted, suffocating the roots..Fish Emulsion, will do this along with other organic fertilizers in pot. It should be light, porous and airy, and drain well..Potting mix can get old...

Good Luck

Mike

Mike,

Thanks, and yes MagICal has calcium. I was just trying to highlight how some ferts may be lacking minors, and give an example of a "recipe". Sorry if I was unclear.

I have learned a lot by poking around here, above all that plants want to survive, no matter how hard we try to kill them. :) It is just a matter of figuring out what we are doing/not doing. Which will drive you crazy.

Thanks for the quick and informative responses. This is great info. I also have some info frm a local horticultural friend (a lot of turf knowledge) who recommended "Flower Bed Amendment" and/or 7-0-9. I have not researched them yet but will try different things on different plants (all numbered so results can be charted)and will report back. Thanks very much for the assist.

Tim,

Here is a wonderful thread on fertilizer and how they work..

I do not agree that Lawn fertilizer will help your trees grow to their full potential and full vitality, over the long run..The "O" number is not going to help grow your citrus well. Sorry..Someone has to speak up..

Hope this helps you understand how plants use fertilizer and in what ratios for what needs..It has helped me and my trees dramatically!

Mike.:-)

Here is a link that might be useful: proper fertilizer for plants..

Thanks Mike (as well as basement). I could not find MagICal yesterday. I did get Ironite + (12-10-10) as well as an Espoma product...Palm-tone...4-1-5.. with 1% sulphur, .5% Magnesium and a bunch of microbes. see at www.espoma.com
I also did go by my "Turf" friends store (Possum's Lawn & Garden) where I picked up a bag of "Flower Bed Conditioner"
75% Composted Cotton Burrs, 14% composted cow manure, 5% Alfalfa Meal, 5% Cottonseed Meal and 1% Sulphur. At $8 for a 1 cu.ft. bag I had to get it. It is meant to "amend" soil, not be used "straight". I am going to read up a bit more on Mike's plant fertilizer site and start my "treatments"...we'll see what works. For some of the plants I think a next size up container might be in order. By now most of these plants would be pretty large if left alone but I prune yearly. Container sizes now are 10 - 20 gallon. I do have 2 Satsuma Tangerines (one heirloom from my dad and one purchased from store 5 yrs ago). The new one has not produced fruit yet but did have some blossoms this Spring. You would never know they were the same species. Very different looking plants.
How do we "upload" pics to this forum?
Thanks for all your knowledge.
t98

You didn't reply to the question about the root pruning. Have you ever done it to your trees. That, alone, could help bring more vigor back to your plants, and (perhaps) allow you to keep them in the same container longer. What is the size of your plants and the measurements of the containers?

The process of root pruning triggers lots and lots of new root tip development. THAT is what will be such a boost to containerized plants.

I'm not at all sure that you should use the flower bed conditioner for your containers. In-ground amending is so different from what should be done within the confines of a container. I'd like to get my hands on some of the stuff for my perennial beds, though. That's where it should be used. I guess all of the herbicides and other chemicals have been degraded by the time it gets to the retail customer.

Your concerns should be focused on finding or making a very porous, fast draining potting mix. Such a medium will not have manure, compost or other fine-textured ingredients that can clog the working of a good potting mix.

Once you've come up with such a medium, you can use any number of perfectly fine citrus fertilizers on the market. Since you have 8 trees, the small investment in a specialty product would be well worth it.

First, I am not disagreeing with Rhizo or Mike on anything, but I for one am very curious how the plants would respond to the amendment in such large containers. I don't want to encourage t98 to do anything which would hurt the heirloom trees, but the bigger the container, the more like field grown it is.

All of my stuff is 5 gal. or less, and while I only have two citrus trees, I have a number of things growing in Al's gritty mix, straight pine bark, or in a heavier mix in Smart Pots (breathable fabric). I am a strong believer in aeration in small containers, but am curious about the big containers. Think about the planters at Versailles that were essentially filled with soil, compost, and manure as I understand it (if I am wrong let me know), and they were good enough for the king of France. But then, the containers are like 40" on a side and the bottoms drain very well.

I personally would not do it with my growing conditions (my dining room and basement in the winter), but I suspect he has been using a heavier mix than I could get away with and has gotten good fruiting. If this works out well for a large container for an outdoor tree, it could be informative. I personally might try it if keeping up with watering a light mix is too burdensome, but keep an eye out for root rot and keep a couple of yards of composted bark and dolomitic lime for a variation on Al's 5:1:1 mix on hand if an emergency repot is needed. I am not saying that is what I recommend, but I am curious.

Finally, I think he is doing different things with each tree, so hopefully, one will work out. If he looks at the container soils thread, he may get a better idea of some of our concerns, but like I said before, it is hard to argue with his success so far.

Here is a link that might be useful: Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention XI

Hi Base..

I am no longer curious about amendments...

I used all kind for years, and for years always had problems keeping plants alive or healthy after a few short months..

I lost over 10 ponderosa lemon trees which are hard to kill over the years along with countless of other plants, using everything under the sun from bat poop, rabbit poo,compost, chicken poo, manure, worm poop, cornmeal, tea bags, coffee grinds, bone meal, shells of crabs, fish emulsion and the list keeps going..

Now I use a light airy mix, or a gritty mix, some you probably use without all the added amendments which causes my soils to collaspe compact, harden, stay wet too long over time, suffocate roots, and have had no problems with any of my plants, unless of course it was a cultural problem do to my stupidity...

Now I will use amendments in my containers, actually all the remaining products I still have, in the ones I plan on partially burying into the soil. I drill holes throughout the whole container, or cut off the bottom 1/4, and submerged the entire thing into the ground..I figure since all the microbes will eventually work their way into the pot and put my fertilizers to good use, that the ground acts like a wick, and that the roots of the plants will make their way into the earth anyway, will do well. I don't do this to plants I intend for the home though..

Mike..:-)

Mike,

Understood. I have not, and based on location and lack of a greenhouse cannot, grow anything except tomatoes in big pots. I have read a lot of the posts here, but I am curious how the Versailles containers were so successful. Based on what I have learned here it should not have worked, but then again we used to think bumblebees should not be able to fly. :)

He asked about how to post pics. Other than checking the FAQ on the main page, I cannot answer that. Just hate to leave a question hanging. Anyone?

Eric

I look at it this way..

What works for each of us is the most important thing..

Some people I personally know of can grow just about anything in pure composted manure in a container..They just know how, and don't know what their secret is, nor do they know how to helps others at it.

But the fact that I can not do it and that my plants do not like it, tells me to no longer waste my time..I am not a pro at growing even in bagged soil mixes with lots of peat, but I do respect those that can.

I just do what works for me..And over time, I have come to realize that a far more majority of individuals can not grow in the soil other than what I use..

We will always learn from each other when we can, and will always try different techniques until we get it right.

Personally, I always grow my plants from their perspective now, and through their eyes, and not through my own or what is convenient for me...My curiousity in using amendments in the ground and in containers has been satisfied. Your's will be too sooner than you think..;-)

Mike;-)

Even a large container is still a container. The in situ soil is a working system of complex relationships and chemical, biological, and physical interactions. You can remove a bushel or 20 from the ground where it performs beautifully, but the 'system' will come to a grinding stop in a container.

It's up to us to try to come up with ingredients that the root system of a plant can thrive in when confined to a container. Materials with a larger particle size than most people are used to is what seems to work best, especially over the long run.

Hey guys,
I think this forum is wonderful and appreciate all of the participation. I believe that, at least, some of the plants need root-pruning (maybe all). I know a few have compacted soil (water sits on top too long before soaking in), probably also deficient in some trace minerals and biotics as well as pH too high...WHOA!!!
I'm going to work on all of these fronts over the next few weeks. The root-prune will be the most interesting as I have not done it before. Do you think the root-prune will cause a complete loss of blossom/fruit??
After root-pruning do you keep the plant out of direct sun for a period of time while "recovering".
thanks...let's figure out what we have to do to post our pics.
t98

Tim,

All you have to do is pick a site that hosts pictures like "photobucket".

Download for free, then post and paste them to here..

Mike..:-)

Thanks meyermike for the pic-posting tip. I will try it out and put images to my words.
t98

Tim, I believe root pruning is a major cause of your issues. The fact that you haven't done it in 15 years of growing in peat mixes (guessing), the root system is probably being choked by compacted soil and useless roots. Try a search for root pruning and if that doesn't get you what you're looking for go on the bonsai forum and ask for help, they are much better resources than I. Also, I'm in agreement with rhizo and Mike, make a better mix and I'm guessing you'll be amazed at the results.

Thanks smerf. I tend to agree after reading info from y'all and doing some remembering about the "lives" of these plants. All planted in standard Miracle Gro kinda of potting mix (some have perlite mixed in). my dad (a farmer at heart) got the first plant/cutting from some friend. Although he believed it was a Lime and died in 1998 still believing it. From that plant I propagated more than a dozen from cuttings (some from the original, some from descendants of the original).
Several years ago I came to the realization that these were Lemon not Lime (sorry dad). Not 100% certain of the variety. The plants produce fruit in a variety of sizes and shapes (some large/lumpy and some small/smooth and one has a cluster of 4 or 5 smallish/smooth fruit) but all taste the same...not really sour or bitter but a mild sweetness.
Root-Pruning definitely going to happen. Here are a few pictures. http://s924.photobucket.com/home/timrod98
Thanks again for all of your help.

Hi Tim.

I am going to the picture to see it. But before I do, I just wanted to say NICE.

That is so awesome that you can carry on the meaning of that tree.

If you want to post a picture right here from photobucket, just put your curser on the picture. Then you will see a drop down bar allowing you to select 4 options. Put you curser over the 3rd line. Click on it to copy it. Than come back to your post and paste it. Then check preview, and it will come up..:-)

MIke..:-)

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Tim, click on the HTML bar so it highlights.
Then left click to copy
Then come back here and paste
Then preview..It is this easy..Hope I helped..\\

Beautiful pictures man.

MIke

Tim I'm sure you will find that your trees will be much better off after root pruning and being planted in a well draining soil. I'm not so sure the Flower Bed Conditioner will drain well or hold up long without compacting. It does look like a good product for amending a garden bed though and I wish it was available here.

Thanks Mike. I'll work on that pic posting. I appreciate everybody's help.
t98

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Great job Tim!!!

Mike..;-)

Nice trees! Looking forward to reading about your progress!

Completed the "root-prune" and re-pot of No. 2 Lemon last Sunday, 5.3.10
Went from approx. 5 gal cont. to 15 gal. container.
Mixed up soil with Miracle Gro Moisture Control, Perlite and Vermiculite...approx ratio (very approx.) 5-1-1
Not much root pruning done. The roots that I could see were all very fine so I did more of a root-scrape. I also "aerated" the root ball by running a long knife through the ball many, many times.
This morning I did spray the leaves with a Minor Element Spray.
We'll see what happens.
In the meantime my recently re-potted Dwarf Wash Navel is suffering. Think I placed back in sun waaay to soon after re-pot. Trying to revive now. All is not dead.
Here are some pics of the No.2 re-pot and prune.
Thanks for all of your input and support.
t98
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5-1-1?
But, Tim, I don't see any Bark in that mix...
5-1-1 is Bark, Turface, and Peat.

Your zone is probably warmer than mine, yet I'd be
leery of that moisture control.
I wouldn't recommend Vermiculite, either.

Josh

Tim, I agree with Josh plus more..

But since you planted already, I would pay extreme attention to compaction around the roots within a very short amount of time, and bugs, especially "gants", when brought in for the winter...Also to much water retention, and watch for root rot if it should rain for days outdoors...:-)

Thank you for posting..Your tree are beautiful..

Mike..:-)

Thanks for the quick responses. By 5-1-1 I simply mean ratio of 5 parts potting soil to 1 part Perlite and 1 part Vermiculite. Yeah, I was a bit hesitant about the "moisture control" Miracle Grow but...not really one to wait once butt is in gear. I do see your point(s) regarding soil compaction and will be watching for slow to no drainage. If I am using some type of potting soil and Perlite what else would you recommend adding??? I remember reading to avoid composted material.
Regarding indoors/outdoors; these plants stay "out" pretty much all year. I move them into my seasonal winter greenhouse/spring-summer-fall raised bed garden by wrapping heavy mil poly around and on top of the "frame" i built around the raised bed. I don't move them in there until the temp is going to be below the mid 30's consistently. I have a small heater in the greenhouse.
I am attempting to make the container mix as "course" as possible and allow for superior drainage. Suggestions welcomed.
As for our temps here...really wild. Not much of a winter with few 20's. Temp can swing from 30s one day to 70s the next. Spring and Summer can be wickedly humid.
I will keep y'all posted on progress. Thanks for the interest and suggestions.
Biggest challenge now is the Dwarf Wash Navel. What a boo boo I made with that!!! Dumb...really took a brain vacation when I repotted and put it back on brick terrace w full sun during really hot spell a few weeks ago after only a few days in semi-shade...
thanks y'all
t98