Do you have pictures? I think I lost mine while it was in the pot for the summer strengthening its roots.

None of mine---no digital camera. I found several images through Google, but this forum won't seem to allow me to post them. It's also called 'Leatherflower',if that helps.

I would love to have some seeds for trade or SASE whichever you prefer.
I have been pretty succesful this year with clems from seeds- I got tons of alpina, macropetala, Bill Mckenzie, vitalba, Farges snow, chiisanensis seedlings and have some seeds which still yet to germinate. I believe viorna should come true to type it would be fun to try it.
Thank you for offering!

This summer I saw a clematis resembling this at a garden tour in Memphis and was hoping to find it at one of the websites. I would really love to try some seeds if you have any remaining. I don't have any seeds to trade this year but please let me know if you would accept SASE. I will e-mail you from your gardenweb page. Thanks, Laura

Here is a picture of a Viorna hybrid from my garden taken last year. This year, it has been blooming since June ! This plant is called Glaucophylla by the nursery that sells it, but an expert in the field of clematis species has identified my plant as a Viorna hybrid, most likely. I will post the link below for the site where I purchased mine. You can buy on-line and have it shipped.
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Below is the link to the on-line nursery where I purchased mine.
Suzy

Here is a link that might be useful: Sunlight Gardens

I grow both viorna and glaucophylla and see differences, especially in the foliage color and form.

Like you, Suzy, I purchased plants from Sunlight Gardens. Originally Sunlight listed the Clematis as viorna, then corrected it when a Clematis expert gave them the correct nomenclature.
One of my plants was donated to Chanticleer Garden where Robert Herald keyed it out as glaucophylla. Robert is a trained botanist, doing curatorial work for both Scott Arboretum and Chanticleer. He used the Flora of North America keys to come to his conclusion which was straight forward.
Charles Cresson also keyed out his plant using Christopher Grey-Wilson's Clematis book. Charles said it was obvious, that there were no traits to suggest any sort of hybrid.
I also e-mailed detailed close-up photos of my viorna and glaucophylla to Dwayne at the University of Tennessee. Both species are native to that state. Dwayne identified my Sunlight plants as glaucophylla. I asked if the two species hybridize and Dwayne reported he had not seen evidence of that.

I am not capable of keying out these plants. However, I trust the judgment of these three professionals, two of whom are botanists.

Dwayne mentioned an upcoming paper will be published shortly that will identify a new species of Clematis in the viorna section, a vining one. It has been previously confused with three other species. Dwayne also wrote about viorna being highly variable and there needs to be more work done on that species. Those west of the Appalchians are quite different than the easterly group. Here is a quote from one of his e-mails:

" C. viorna is variable in its leaf thickness, venation (reticulate with raised veins vs. non-reticulate leaves), the peduncle bract placement, flower color, hairiness, and habitat. More work needs to focus in on these variants to determine whether or not they correlate with geographic or environmental variables. Some of these variants may warrant specific recognition. "

At some point I would love to see the entire viorna collection at Scott Arboretum and have been working toward that goal. I have quite a few in my own garden including some of the shrubby species.

By the way, Dwayne does not believe the photos labeled " glaucophylla" on Clematis on the Web are accurately named.
They look nothing like my flowers!

Carol

Carol, good to see you posting here again. It's nice to know that two expert botanists keyed out the plant that Sunlight Gardens is selling and that it is glaucophylla. The fact that they did so with a real live example of the plant in front of them gives further credence to their keying process as it is difficult to identify a plant by a picture alone. The fact that Dwayne also confirmed its identity is further reassurance as to its identity.

For the record, I have both a viorna that has been keyed out by a professor of botany at NC State University and the glaucophylla that Sunlight Gardens is selling (actually I have two of their glaucophyllas). The two are nothing alike in terms of the flower size, sepal color, and the color of the foliage.

I also find it interesting that Dwayne thinks the plant identified as glaucophylla on COTW is most probably not glaucophylla. I know it doesn't look anything like the flower on my plant either and wish that the pictures at COTW would show more of the overall plant and leaves since the flower alone is nice but doesn't do much for letting you know about the foliage and its structure. Perhaps the plant on COTW is a versicolor.

Anyway, thanks for the info and look forward to the upcoming paper on the viornas and the possibility of another species in that group.

Carol could you please post a few of your detailed close-up pics of C glaucophylla? Thanks.

Sorry, could you also say where the paper is being published and when, thanks a lot.

Miguel, thank you for your comments! I agree, a live specimen examined with a hand lens is the proper way to go! I've watched Charles ( and Robert) using magnification to count hairs on foliage. I've also observed Charles' dissection of flowers to view the details inside.
Gardeners and collectors without proper training to key out plants cannot make an accurate judgment. I rely on experts to assist in this.

Brian, I am not certain of the publication date on the new species but will report when I hear.
If you have a glaucophylla plant from the same stock, it can be keyed out by a qualified person.
Flora of North America is on line with all the necessary keys.
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=310002

Or, the use of Christopher Grey-Wilson's keys from his Clematis book also will work.

The botanist friend described two groups - the glaucophylla group which includes texensis, glaucophylla, veriscolor and addisonii. That group has glabrous and glaucous leaves, stems and nodes. ( no hairs!)

The viorna group has variously pubescent leaves, stems and nodes and includes viorna, morefieldii, pitcheri, reticulata and possibly some others.

From this information, one should be able to find some hairs on the viorna group! Some are sparsely pubescent while others are densely pubescent so magnification is necessary.

Here is a quote received by me from the botanist:
"It should be noted that Appalachian plants of C. viorna are much less pubescent and "different" from plants west of the Appalachians in a few subtle features. The Appalachian plants still usually have a few hairs on the veins on the lower leaf surface. Some have considered these plants to have glaucous lower leaf surfaces but they are mistaken. Only the C. glaucophylla complex has glaucous leaves. Smoother leaved C. viornas can be separated from the C. glaucophylla complex also by the presence of pubescence on the nodes of the stem."

I hope this helps clarify things.
Carol

Carol, can you post the pictures?

Clematis on the Web is largely dependent on contributors for photographs of species types. We are not species experts by any stretch of the imagination. It is quite possible that our photo of glaucophylla is something else, although Ton Hannink is normally a very reliable source. We would love to show photos that illustrate the flower, the habit and the foliage - but we can't do this for many species forms unless people send them to us (we don't grow many species ourselves)! Please (as ever) if you think we are wrong about something and/or you have better photos that you are prepared to share - get in touch.

Richard thanks for chiming in here. I think it is good that you are letting people know that you rely on others for pictures for the COTW database. I know that it is most probably a tremendous task to maintain this database and that it would be difficult to show all aspects of the clematis for every entry--we all have our wish lists though don't we! : ) It surely is something that I use a lot as a reference and will continue to do so. Thanks again for making this reference available to us.

By the way, I do have some pictures of clematis glaucophylla from Sunlight Gardens in my garden but I think Carol's pictures and the ones from the nursery in Tennesee who sell this plant are much better than anything that I can take with the camera I have available to use. Perhaps you can contact Sunlight and ask permission to use their picture on your site. Once again, thanks for the great database.

Richard, I quite frequently refer to Clematis on the Web. It's a wonderful site and the only place with a comprehensive search for Clematis species and cultivars! I certainly didn't intend any criticism!

I believe there has been much confusion over several N. American species and only recently some have begun to be sorted out. I've e-mailed you the old USDA web site which shows a huge range of glaucophylla while the current and updated Flora of North American shows just a small range.
Flora of N. America
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=5931&flora_id=1

compare to old USDA
http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=plant_profile.cgi&symbol=CLGL

These photos don't do the flower justice as the flower is a very hot pink. Clematis glaucophylla. This has done extremely well in my garden, flowering for months. I see similarities to texensis to which it is closely related. This is one of the most complimented plants in my garden.
Some gardeners have had mildew problems but I've never experienced this. It's a great vine to scramble into Aesulus pavia which begins defoliating in August.
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I've linked below to Clematis on the Web. For those not familiar with the site, it's definitely one you want to add to your favorites! It's easy to search the database.

Here is a link that might be useful: Clematis on the Web

Very kind of you thanks a lot!

Hi all,
There are some reasonable photos of c. glaucophylla on teh Tennessee database of vascular plants tenn.bio.utk.edu/ just follow the obvious route from there, and you should find four photos at least.
Keith

Hi Keith. Thanks for that link. Took some digging around but finally found the pictures of not only glaucophylla but also quite a few of the other native American clematis including one I hadn't ever heard of before--clematis catesbyana. It appears to be some variant of virgin's bower. For those who want to see without searching, the link below takes you to the appropriate page. Just scroll down until you get to the clematis listings.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tennessee Database

Trying to link to Clematis photos.... see if it works.

Here is a link that might be useful: Clematis

Carol, your pictures are very intersting and the links to other data. I see that I have got the seeds under a wrong name. I have got glaucophylla under the name addisonii.

I'm quite muddled about all these clematis. Is there a site which shows the "family tree" for the various Texensis, Viorna, Pitcheri, Addisonii, Crispa, etc...?

Marie, don't know if you have it, but in Magnus Johnson's book "The Genus Clematis", he has a whole section on Viornas and subclassifications under it. I am not sure if he is implying any family tree or just relationships, but the info is quite interesting. He treats Viorna as a section within the genus Clematis with C. viorna as the type. Under Viorna there are several subsections including:

Baldwinianae which includes baldwini and socialis
Crispae which includes just crispa
Hirsutissimae which includes bigelovii, hursutissima, and palmeri
Integrifoliae which includes albicoma, ochroleuca, coactilis, viticaulis, fremontii, and integrifolia
Fuscae which includes fusca and ianthina

There is then a section Viorna subsection Viorna and in that area he describes a wide variety of clematis including addisonii,beadlei, glaucophylla, morefieldii, pitcheri, reticulata, and texensis amongst others.

He also gives graphical breakdowns of how to differentiate amongst the various types of clematis within the subsections. Once again, I am not sure if this is indicative of familial relationships or just a means of organizing this huge group of clematis.

I too would love it if someone could come up with a family tree to see how all these species are inter-related.

Marie, in Christopher Grey-Wilson's book, "Clematis the Genus", there is a similar breakdown of the Subgenus Viorna into groups as there is in the Magnus Johnson book, in case you don't have the Magnus Johnson book.

The nearest thing to a family tree of the viorna group that I have yet come across is in William Dennis' Ph.D. degree dissertation 'A Biosytematic Study of Clematis Section Viorna Subsection Viornae' for The University of Tennessee - 1976 pp 80, where it shows a possible evolutionary tree for that subsection. Again, sorry to be a right pedant! Incidentally, if you are wondering why I am such a complete bore, it is because I have a particular interest in the viorna group.

Keith, I don't find you or your posts a bore in any fashion. I don't quite understand however what you mean when you say "Again, sorry to be a right pedant!" Could you elaborate? Also, is the dissertation you mentioned available for viewing online or is there some way you might be able to post a picture of the tree for our perusal?

I imagine that it should be available from your best libraries over there, or from the original institution it was submitted to - date 1976, but I am reluctant to put up what may be copyright (or does the date factor come in here?)

Thanks for the email Keith.

I found this site:
http://www.missouriplants.com/Blueopp/Clematis_versicolor_page.html

Ton, I don't grow versicolor but have been searching for it. Wouldn't it be great to have a site with all the viorna type photos together? I realize some species are highly variable so different forms should be side-by-side. The site at the University of Florida shows photos of reticulata that look , to me, like crispa.
But, I am no botanist, and cannot second guess the experts!

Click on the images of reticulata at this site. # 10 is quite interesting as it looks almost gold, but two other flowers ( # 2, 3) look so similar to crispa...... so I would love to know how they tell these apart.

Here is a link that might be useful: Clematis reticulata

Interesting photos Carol. Image #7 is lovely too. I don't have the terminology to describe the blooms, but to me, the base of the flowers in photos #2 and #3 are larger and more wide open than #10 which seems tighter. The various colours are intriguing!

Carol, It is a very intersesting group. I have a lot of different seedlings and all are different but there are very beautiful flowers amongst them!

IF YOU STILL HAVE ANY CLEMATIS SEEDS PLEASE SEND ME SOME TRADE OR SASE

Saturday, I go to the greenhouse and I look for some seeds. It is too late for the seeds.

I am interested in growing native clematis from seed. I am looking for seed of the following: crispa, columbiana(rock clematis),glaucophylla,hirsutissima,ochroleuca, pitcheri, texensis and viorna. Will send SASE. Will take anything that you can spare as long as it is native to the US. I live in zone 5. Thank you.