That IS very interesting - thanks for posting it.

Interesting since it goes against most of what I have seen written about division of clematis, but then again may be more apropos to clematis grown in pots versus in the ground.

Most clematis are really tough things and I've divided them with good results! I've simply carefully dug and shaken the soil from the roots and then cut them into segments containing plenty of roots. Often I've heard it said that one must be very careful with the roots of clematis ... heck, most are like bootlaces and without the fine feeder roots that would otherwise easily be damaged ... the roots are more tough than the tops, tops that easily kink or simply snap like bean sprouts!

Terry

I had a similar problem this summer with one of my oldest clematis. It had layered itself all along the ground at least 5 ft wide and 15' deep. It was becoming a monster. It was a type 2, but I decided to cut it All back to within 6' to the ground (mid July). Then I started from the outside edges to dig. It's still 3 ft wide, and completely grow up to the top of the trellis on the patio again. Plus, I potted up 12 crowns and they too started putting out new growth.

The picture of it in August after it's haircut. It's at the top again and even gave me a few flowers.

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Wow Joan, great results--your picture is stupendous. I have never attempted to divide any of my clematis simply because I have no room for duplicates except for some of the native US clematis and the fact that the literature suggests that it is normally only done to the integrifolias, heracleifolias, and rectas. Seems like that info needs to be updated. I do know that Katie from California and a couple of other posters on GB posted there a couple of years ago about attempting to divide some of their clematis and they had less than good results--the parent plant almost dying or taking a long time to return to their normal vigor after the division. Your documented results seem to show that it can be done. How long was your plant in the ground when the division was attempted? Also, just to clarify, your division description sounds different from Terry's--you dug them/split them directly from the ground and he dug the plant up and divided his after they were out of the ground, correct?

Another tidbit about dividing. I have seen references to a technique called nibbling in several books and if my question about Joan's division technique versus Terry's is correct, then it sounds as if Joan you may "nibbling". One book that references this technique in particular is "A Plantsman's Guide to Clematis" by John Howells. In it he says "nibbling is different from root division. In nibbling, the parent plant remains in the ground. Careful observation often reveals, especially in established plants, that the spread of the plant is so wide that it should be possible to nibble at it and take a piece away. You may even see an offshoot close to an established plant. Sometimes, an established plant is so broad, it is possible to nibble away at two to three corners of it."

He goes on to say that "the golden rule of nibbling is that one must never risk damaging the parent plant. The roots of clematis go very deep. Therefore a sharp spade must be placed between the parent plant and the portion to be nibbled, and the spade driven deep into the ground separating the roots of the nibbled portion from that of the remaining plant. ...The nibbled portion,if large enough, can be grown in a prepared hole as usual, while a small portion can be potted into a large pot and then 'grown on' for another year."

Joan, does this sound like your procedure?

Also, I wonder if some of these offsets that are referred to are actually just stems that have layered themselves over the years and you are essentially just removing layered portions of the parent plant. I can see how over time that the stem mass on a good sized clematis would have stems touching the ground that could layer, giving rise to new plants. Just a thought!! Anyway, congrats on your success.

Sorry for the confusion Miguel. I guess my situation is really not dividing the parent plant, but digging up new sections of stems that have rooted themselves over the years. This plant is probably 10 years old. I'm sure I could still dig out another 2 dozen layered sections and still have a big plant. Would I dare send you a section if I washed off all the earth and just sent the root section in a baggie with maybe wet paper towel or newspaper? If you are interested. It has a beautiful flower. I bought it as Nelly Moser, but other garden members have identified it as Kimi-idera.

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WOW..what a stunning clematis ..I just love those that have the colored edges with the white bars!!..Jeanne

Hey no confusion Joan. I just wanted to make sure that everyone was operating on the same page. I know when I hear the word division, I automatically think of digging up a whole clump of something, daylilies for example. The daylilies or whatever are divided into portions either by pulling the new plants that have developed apart or cutting them apart with a knife or a sharp spade. I thought that what you might be doing is actually digging up new plants or offsets of the parent plant that might have developed because of layering of the stems on your type II plant. Good to know that my instincts were correct.

I also wish that Terry would chime back in here and actually describe the process that he uses--does he actually dig up the whole plant and divide the original parent plant or is also nibbling away at new plants that have developed by layering. Also, the specific types of clematis that he did pull apart to make new ones would be of interest.

My concern here is that someone come along and read this thread and decide to dig up their entire plant and try to do a regular division of the plant and loosing a plant that has sentimental value or that is difficult to replace because it is rare or hard to find commercially available.

As for the kind offer, I am going to pass. The type IIs in my zone are notorious for browning out in the summer and I have already started evicting them. Also, the drought conditions here are growing worse by the day. I would hate to take a plant from you and have to ignore watering it due to the situation. I have linked an article on the situation that is befalling a great portion of the southeastern US.

In another thread, I offered to send you some seed if you wish--some of the US native clematis as well as a mix of various type IIIs. The offer still stands if you want them! Just let me know.

Here is a link that might be useful: SE Drought

I did see and and did respond, but maybe you didn't get the message in your regular emails, may be in your junk mail, as my email address changed and you probably didn't recognize it. I would be interested in a few type III's. Not crazy about the tiny tiny flowering ones, but something the shape like Princess D, or that gorgeous Hendersonii I'd like to try. I was browsing over last year's Gardenimport catalogue, and noticed they did have Betty Corning, and a white and a pink viticealla called Hagelby White and Hagelby Pink. Will be anxious to see what they have in their new book for next year.

Terry chimes in ... Yes, I have either dug up entire old established plants OR have left them in place and 'nibbled' away at the multitude of stems that have rooted directly from the crown itself ... to avoid any confusion, I'm not meaning any stems that might have layered themselves any distance from the base. It is of more success to divide the younger well rooted outter portion of the plant, the inner part is often so woody that it may fail to grow or do poorly. Jackmanii types (group 3) and integrifolia kinds generally divide easily as such. Last spring, I had literally chopped and hacked apart a large integrifolia 'Olga' (spade divided this one!) and 'Pamjat Serdsta'. Though, indeed in genereal, I tend to be much more careful and patiently tickle apart the roots and use a knife to cut through the woody stem portions.

Yes, I'd tend to be extra cautious with one of a kind and rare clematis ... though, when carefully done, all should otherwise be fine. Again, I'd also recommend only dividing established plants and doing so in early spring before they've broken dormancy.

Joan, I love the photo! ... and you MUST get 'Princess Diana'! ... this gal draws raves!

Terry

Thanks for chiming in Terry and putting your info in the pot. The integrifolias, heracleifolias, and rectas are generally the type most commonly recommended for true division of existing crowns. Interesting to hear that you have also done so on Jackmanii types. Any specific varieties other than Jackmanii? I am tempted to try this on both Olgae and Hakuree since their current location is not the best since a japanese maple and Otto Luyken laurel are intruding on their growing space. Then again, may just dig the whole root mass up and move it!

Joan, never got your email. Try again at the email address I sent you via the Garden Web mail system.

Miguel, sent you a new email. Let me know if you get this one.

Got it Joan! I emailed back!

Jackmanii Superba, Hagley Hybrid, Ville de Lyon, Dorothy Walton, Rhapsody, etc ... are some of the large flowered types I have successfully divided. Ofen when my new plants become established, I divide off a portion for my sister, she's also a big time clematis lover!

Terry

Interesting Terry. Thanks for the specifics.