Software
Houzz Logo Print
memo3

About my crawl space

16 years ago

ThinMan, it is always perfectly fine to chime in with whatever is on your mind. I'm not offended in the least.

So first off, I am in a rock and a hard spot with my Aunt and Uncle. I am planning to purchase this house in two years when I've paid off my car and can cancel my daughters very expensive car insurance. In the mean time they don't want to spend any money on the house and would rather let me bear that burden once I buy it. Understandable I suppose. But the roof was leaking and that had to be corrected ASAP but I'm afraid that is going to end up a disaster, as is my aunt, because she hired the guys with the very lowest bid. Another story. Sigh.

I qualified for a state weatherization plan since I am disabled. The guy that does the weatherizing came out this morning to look it all over. My windows are all double paned and in good condition. A plus. My doors just need new weather stripping and a door sweep on the bottoms. Another plus. He punched a small hole through the stucco on the north side and there is insulation in the walls. I'm shocked! There is however only an inch of insulation in the attic. They will have to enlarge the attic opening and re-frame it just so they can fit up there. You can barely get your head through the small opening let alone a body and "stuff". They will make a new door for the opening and insulate it. They are going to add 10" of insulation up there. They'll do caulking where needed around the doors and windows.

Now we come to the crawl space and basement. You probably saw the pictures with my cellar door in them (wattle fence). I have to replace the door on there and cover it with tin. I will also put a piece of insulation on the underside of the door. My aunt will not pay for that. The weatherization guy is going to put more insulation around my kitchen water pipes but that is all. The pipes run up the wall exactly where the cellar door goes down in. I'm going to put up insulation on as much of that wall along the door way as I can do my self. There is just a regular interior door leading in to that basement. The space in there is 10x10 but someone punched holes in the brick walls to run the pipes to the bathroom and on the other side to run electricity up into the kitchen addition etc. So the cold air just flows right through the whole space. My water heater is down in that little room. Now, there is a place outside the house where my uncle dug out the foundation dirt and somewhat into the crawl space, just enough room so he could stick his head in there and hook up the water pipes to the bathroom sink. The hole is covered with a piece of tin, had rocks on top of it and was covered over with some dirt. You could still see the rocks in amongst the dirt. My uncle told me to dig all of that out, open it up and lay a piece of 4x8 insulation on the ground to help keep the bathroom pipes from freezing. I don't really know if that will help but anyway when I stuck my head in there what I could see is that the sill plate of the house is setting right on the soil, yes it is dry rotted. There is about a foot of space between the floor joists and the dirt. The stucco on the outside goes down just enough to tough the soil. It's just a big living space for ground squirrels and mice. They have been burrowing under the edge of the stucco for quite some time. There is where the problem lies, apparently. The cold air from outside is blowing right under the house and comes up through the floors. It's not so noticeable in the rooms that are carpeted but you can NOT walk across the kitchen floor in bare feet. They will freeze pretty fast. The weatherization guy called it a "stacked affect". So when the cold air comes in the crawl space it comes up through the floors pushing the air I'm trying to warm up to the ceiling and straight out through the attic. The new insulation up in the attic should help tremendously but I have to do something to stop the cold air from penetrating the bottom of the house. His only suggestion was to add more dirt around the bottom. If the crawl space was a minimum of 24" they would have crawled in there and insulated the inside of the crawl space walls. But it's not deep enough. Ha! How's that for a story?!!

Here are a couple pics I took for you, my batteries are dead so I couldn't open this hole back up so you could see in there. If you dug done less that an inch along the foundation you would be able to see where the stucco ends and the sill plate.

{{gwi:604564}}

{{gwi:604566}}

Those bricks along the edge are covering up a 2-3 inch gap between the piece of tin and the bottom of the stucco. They actually cut the sill plate out here to gain some access to the crawl space. Oh boy. If you think this is facinating you should see the progressive pictures I've taken of the roof debaukle (sp?). LOL!

MeMo

Comments (10)

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Hey Memo - the stoner chiming in first. Have a look at the This Old House web site. They used blown insulation technology that came from Canada on some of their houses. It is very effecient, is it's own - plastic wrap - can't ge the word. Wanted to say this before my brian restes, which is any sec.....

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Memo, I have the blown insulation - there are two types, fiber blown insulation which would be PERFECT in your attic, it's paper that has been treated to be fire resistant and has a higher R value than batting. However I chose the "wrap" insulation, which I would recommend in the crawl space but it is expensive! For you, with disablities I don't know if it's the best option in the attic. They say no off-gas but it smelled horrible here and I was glad we were out for a few months afterwards. I will say that may have been the termite/mold treatment. Because we get jelly mold in wood (which I had) and termites I had them mix the first layer with orange oil and pyrthian to deter pests and mold.
    I hate for you to be so worried about your plants and think of giving up gardening. You need to have something for YOU.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Thanks, MeMo. I'm glad my comments didn't bug you. So, where you have a crawl space, is the sill plate actually resting on dirt, and there is no masonry foundation under it at all? And it's not pressure treated wood? Sounds scary to me.

    TM

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Hi Memo, I have read both your threads. I am sorry you are having so many problems with this house. I hope it all comes together quickly for you.

    About your plants...as long as you keep them watered....for the most part they will be okay to move again. They will look ratty, and may take a little longer to get established and going....but with some care they should pull through for you.

    Are you sure you want to buy this house. Like TM, it does sound kind of scary to me. But I guess you have 2 years to decide for sure.

    I don't stop in here very often anymore. I have given up here with the neighbour from hell. No annuals at all this year, no blooming bags, no pots. What is left of the perennial beds that they haven't killed with roundup or what ever, are still there. We will look after them, as little as possible and still have them look okay, can't stand to be outside. So only go out when we absolutely have to or they are gone away. We are trying to stick out living here till we retire. We had spent the last 14 years setting this house up to be our retirement home. I guess plans change and we all have to learn to adapt. Don't get me wrong, I still have a lot of perennials...and if they survive till we move, I plan to take them with me. Some of these plants have been moved and moved and moved, trying to find spots where they can't kill them.

    I just wanted to post to say I am hoping for the best for you.

    Sierra

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I'm trying to picture exactly what is going on with some of this, but I agree that there are better solutions than your guy suggested. Blown-in insulation should be a definite solution for the attic that shouldn't require building anything for access.

    As for the crawl space, those are goofy (imo). It sounds like you may have some structural issues way beyond the insulation question - I'm picturing levitating studs being supported mainly by the exterior stucco??? (I may be missing something here.) Anyhow, one thing you have to keep in mind for insulation is that you need to insulate the entire building envelope, or cold air will come in any gaps in that envelope. You can consider either your floor or the crawl space floor and walls as being the bottom part of your building envelope - and whatever is inside the building envelope is your conditioned space.

    Anyhow, all that being said, insulating the outside of that crawl space wall is probably your best bet. I wouldn't use EIFS - it is supposed to stay above grade level so it can drain properly. However, you can use rigid insulation board, and then waterproof over it. You could use tin, and flash over it, etc. Just make sure whatever you do on the top of the insulation board is sloped to drain, so you don't get water sitting on top and going through and behind.

    Disclaimer: All of this advice is sight-unseen, and I do not claim any responsibility or liability, even though I am an architect!

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Nancy, I've looked and looked through the This Old House website. They have thousands of products listed and I haven't found the one you were talking about yet but I'll keep going through the list.

    GGG, thanks for the info. I totally know how a crawl space "should" be insulated but this one is so shallow no one can fit under there to do the work. That is the reason the weatherization guy said dirt is the only answer. It truly does need more dirt to create a slope away from the house for drainage but I think it needs something more. I am just imagining something added to the base of the house and that will stick out from the stucco siding and look weird. See the stucco goes all the way to the ground and then has dirt over the bottom edge.

    Thin Man, when you are thinking about modern building practices you have to take into consideration that this house was built 126-145 years ago buy the pioneers. The county records show that the age is unknown which means that it was built before the town incorporated. We are celebrating the 125th birthday of our town this summer.

    I would bet that the house was framed with cottonwood or lodge pole pine and that at least the base of it is made from red cedar. The lodge pole pines are indigenous to this area and the other two were planted by very early settlers and during the homestead period and were called tree claims. I would also bet that the stucco on the house is made with river sand and probably wasn't added until the 20's or 30's. The pioneers used what materials were available to them. The houses here all have numerous additions to them because during good times people added on or they added on out of necessity to house their children or to take in boarders. It's kinda funny, it's like a time warp here. Honestly, people are finally having to re-roof their homes and buildings to get rid of the original shake shingles that were used way back when. Those who didn't do the re-roofing when it needed to be done now have buildings that are rotting and caving in. We have low rainfall, sandy soil and no termites in this country and I think that is the reason for the longevity of these houses and buildings.

    Oh Sierra, I feel so badly for what you are going through. I had a neighbor just like that when I lived in the city. She went so far as to accuse my husband of running her off the road. When it went to court she was 70 and my husband had longish hair and though they had no proof at all, the judge bought her story and sentenced my husband to six months. I had just had my back surgery and was not able to care for my self yet and there I was with three little kids. It was AWFUL! I say it isn't worth it. Move now and find your dream house somewhere else! Really!!

    Irene, very good information, thank you. I did read up on EIFS. There were numerous lawsuits and class action suits in 2003-2004 because the product, while being an excellent insulator was so good that it didn't allow any trapped moisture to escape. This caused the studs and other woods used in the building to rot. They used the product on almost all new buildings for a period of time. I know that the product system now has a weepage system built into it to eliminate that problem but you are correct in that it must be place 6-8 inches above soil level.

    So after much research and a sleepless night, what I have decided to do is: move my gardens to the veggie area, let my Aunt go ahead and pile dirt up around the foundation. Close up that weird crawl space area they dug out and fix the cellar door and insulate it as much as possible. When I buy the house in two years I'm going to finance it with a USDA Rural Housing loan. This will allow me enough money to buy the house and do any repairs up the amount that I qualify for based on my income. In this case it will give me about $10K for repairs. At that time I will pull the dirt away from the house, insulate with the highest R-value sheets that are available and then build raised beds with stone all the way around the house to cover the insulation. I would have to put a drip edge along the top of the insulation and seal it all very well and then check it frequently to make sure it staying sealed. The other option is to stucco over the insulation and have a little ridge all the way around the base of the house, which might look weird but may be the more long term way to go. Of course I could add the raised bed against the stucco too and that would cover the ridge.

    Any thoughts on that?

    MeMo

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Wow, MeMo, I hadn't really thought of the house as being that old. I guess it has actually done pretty well for itself, considering that. I'm a big fan of This Old House, and it's amazing the kinds of things they find when they start taking apart some of those old timers. You wonder how they stayed up.

    It probably wasn't too smart of me to point you toward EIFS specifically, but I was trying to give you some idea of the finishing systems that can be applied to the foam insulation board.

    As you pointed out, you aren't exactly in control of the situation yet, so you pretty much have to go with the flow for now. It sounds like you're aware of the house's problems and that was my main concern.

    I hope it all works out for you and I'm really sorry if I had a hand in giving you a sleepless night. :-(

    TM

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    TM, It wasn't anything you said that kept me up. LOL! It is the whole idea of moving my gardens that has me the most upset. It was a huge undertaking to dig, move and re-plant all those plants since my physical condition is so shakey. They've stopped the steroid shots now and whatever I do from here on in is going to adversely effect me. At this point with all that would have to be done again, I do have to seriously consider all of my options. So maybe I should just consider flowering trees and shrubs in my future. It's an uphill battle for me and some days I just feel like chucking it all.

    If you think of any more brands of materials similar to EIFS please let me know. I know there has to be something out there that will work for this situation, I just don't know what to Google. Once I find it I will have do a lot of searching to find someone willing to travel out here and do the work. You see, we really haven't advanced much further than dirt out here on the Prairie ;)

    MeMo

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Part of my crawl space had 6" between dirt and building. Needless to say, the entire would structure of that room had to be completely replaced, waterproofed to the hilt too. We used treated lumber under there as necessity. Then they did the foam spray very easily. Their hoses had a camera on them, and some sort of rod that made the hose more stiff. It was a challenge, but they managed. Batting couldn't go in, just the foam. Personally I think that someone COULD do it, Memo, I just think finding someone who is willing and has equipment will be hard for you since it sounds like you were basically given someone.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    That's exactly right, GGG. I think it could be done but if the weatherization guy say's he can't do it then I don't have much recourse at this time.

    MeMo

Sponsored