Derek. The rooting hormone I used also has Idole-3-butyric acid. it is "Shultz Take root" on the inside label it says "Grow new plants from cuttings *blah blah blah* Popular varieties such as roses, jasmine, etc. and lastly Raspberry " as far as I know Raspberry is Fruit.. so must have been the brand you found. There is nothing on this label saying any thing about do not use on fruiting trees .. I read the label 3 times just to make sure I was worried I had missed something.
Good luck!!! the first one I did has 4 new leaves on it now!!!
Gina *BabyBlue*

Whooooa, I just went to check mine & it's the same as Gina's. Mine DOES NOT list raspberries--just house plants& flowers. I just started air layering a cherimoya and Bay leaf tree using it. Only precautions are HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED, Avoid contact w/ skin & eyes, avoid breathing dust & wash thoroughly after handling. Never said not to use on fruiting trees. Same ingredient as yours. Hmmmmm
Patty

Derek - I know you didn't ask, but I feel the need to pass along some benefits of my own experience. I have rooted (literally) thousands of of citrus cuttings over the course of several years *without* the aid of a rooting hormone. Many years ago, I used Rootone and saw no difference in my success rate. So, why waste the time and money, and apparently put your health at further risk? If you follow the protocols for rooting cuttings -- including aftercare -- you have no need for root hormone powder/liquid.

Realize that "fruiting trees" are trees with fruit on them now; NOT "fruit trees." There's a big difference! What they don't want is for you to use it on a plant that could contaminate currently existing fruits.

Even there, it's a precautionary thing; IBA does not move up through the plant; only down. So unless you applied it to the leaves and fruit directly, it should never get into the fruit even if you did treat the base of such a cutting.

I would agree with AAE that Rootone doesn't have much effect, but with the stronger materials (Rhizopon or Hormodin, Dip-'N-Grow, etc.), we get dramatically better rooting if we use the material than if we don't.

Tricky wording! I never even thought that they meant 'trees that have fruit on them' as opposed to 'trees that are capable of producing fruit.'

Maybe I'll try a cutting or two w/o any additives, and if I'm not satisfied with the results I'll pick up one of the products that you mentioned, Dr. Manners.

Thanks much for the replies!

~Derek

MM - I've used Hormodin (big yellow/green can?) as well, with no major difference. Either way, my rooting success (without rooting hormones) is usually 95%, or better. So I really couldn't expect a dramatic improvement. Derek - I have some packets of rooting hormone that I would gladly send you. They are unopened, but I'll never use them. Drop me an email if you are interested.

Derek, I use Hormodin with all my cuttings. I also must agree that it makes a dramatic difference, both in time and precentage of success with the cuttings becoming rooted. I would suggest that you use it, especially, if you only have a cutting or two. However, if you have a quantity of cuttings to play with, and are not concerned about results, then I would also try AAE's method and do some rooting with and without the rooting hormone. Could be interesting. If you do, let us know how it turns out. Take care.- Millet

I threw caution to the wind, and I think the wind threw it back...

Took a cutting from Jaden's rootstock (Flying Dragon I assume, is that what Four Winds uses?), and stuck it in some soil. It's sitting on top of a terrarium heater with a plastic sandwich bag sort of wrapped around it to keep in some extra humidity. I guess we'll see what happens!!!

ALSO... I was reading about "willow water" as a substitute for rooting hormone. As with any 'natural' method, I'm sure that are believers and non-believers. It may even have some proof or disproof rooted (get it... rooted) in plant chemistry. I spotted a willow that's right on my walk to class, so I'm going to run down and take a few cuttings, make some "willow water" and try it out. I figure it can't hurt... too much.

Anyway, I'll keep y'all updated as to what happens.

~Derek

Derek - I heard about that "willow water" rooting solution not long ago from an old timer. I passed it off as voodoo gardening. But, the woman who told me this has had her gardens featured on HGTV twice and speaks all over the country -- including a recent engagement at the Biltmore Estate -- about successfuly growing fresh herbs. So, who am I to doubt her? I'd like to hear about your results though. LOL

I'll certainly let y'all know what happens... not that the results from one or two cuttings is going to prove or disprove the validity of "willow water," but it'll be fun to play with the idea a little.

~Derek

AAE, voodoo gardening as opposed to snake oil? LOL..

Toni - I thought "voodoo gardening" was pretty good. Please don't hold it against me. LOL

Ah yes, willow water does work good. Find fresh branches of willow trees & cut or break them into small pieces into boiling water. Remove from heat & let sit for 12-24 (?) hours & strain. Type in willow water on gardenweb search.

AAE, only if it's done during a full moon..just beware of Roo-garous.Don't forget to wear your gris-gris.

Patty, glad I've got you here. You mentioned making wine w/citrus..right? Is it difficult..dh was asking about it..he used to make beer and though I'm not a beer or wine drinker, that beer was tasty and filled w/foam, so unlike many US beers now that are watered down..
If you get a chance, please email me w/instructions on making wine, or if there's a site that explains it, please direct me to it..thanks, Toni

Derek, you wrote "Took a cutting from Jaden's rootstock (Flying Dragon I assume, is that what Four Winds uses?)..." Four Winds Growers, according to an email reply I received from them not too many months ago, is not offering any trees grafted onto Flying Dragon. To the best of my knowledge they never have. I think most if not all of their rootstock is Poncirus Trifoliata, but not the Flying Dragon variety. Normal Poncirus Trifoliata rootstock (not Flying Dragon) leads to what I refer to as semi-dwarf trees, when planted in the ground. Good luck. Eddie

Here's the "scoop" on willow water.

In the 1970s, into the early '80s, Dr. Makato Kawase, of the Ohio State University, did research on root-promoting compounds, and he discovered what we now know as willow water. He worked with birch and spruce species which were known to be exceedingly difficult to root from cuttings, with or without the use of synthetic auxin hormones. He made an extract of willow stems (willow is preposterously easy to root from cuttings with no pretreatment), and soaked the birch and spruce cuttings in the extract. Afterward, the spruce and birch cuttings rooted at a high rate of success. That much is good science. For an article by Dr. Kawase, here's a reference:

Southern florist and nurseryman. South Florist Nurseryman Sept 11, 1981. v. 94 (26)
p. 17-18, 23, 25, 29.

Unfortunately, Dr. K. died rather young, and his research was not carried on by other researchers. His theory was that the formation of adventitious roots requires two trigger materials -- auxin (already well-known) and a second, previously unknown substance, which he named "rhizocaline." This name, and its concept, were first introduced by Bouillenne and Went in 1933, but their rhizocaline was later demonstrated to be IAA (the most common naturally occurring auxin). Kawase's concept, though, is that his "rhizocaline" is a different, non-auxin substance, and that a plant needs some of both, to successfully make adventitious roots. He never elucidated the chemical nature of the substance; he only postulated that it must exist, and it must be present in willow.

So plant species may be divided into several groups.

1. This group has plenty of endogenous (internal, naturally occurring) auxin and rhizocaline. This group roots easily from cuttings with no special treatment.

2. Another group of plants has adequate endogenous rhizocaline, but lacks sufficient auxin. This group is difficult to root from cuttings without an added auxin-based hormone, but if treated with the hormone, can be rooted easily. It is this group for which the commercial rooting powders and liquids are most useful.

3. A third group has adequate auxin, but lacks rhizocaline. This group is difficult to root, with or without auxin-based hormone treatment, but can be rooted easily after a treatment with willow extract.

4. A fourth group lacks both auxin and rhizocaline, and the way to successfully root these cuttings would be to treat with willow water, followed by an auxin-based compound.

5. The last group lack the ability to make adventitious roots, regardless of treatment, and so cuttings always fail no matter what you do.

To date, no one has discovered what the mysterious substance in willow water is. What we do know is that it is NOT auxin, and it does not substitute for auxin. We did some work with it here at FSC (see link below), with roses. We found that willow water alone did not promote rooting, but in the particular rose we were using, it enhanced the effect of auxin-based root promoters. Also, one of our chemistry professors (who has a hobby of growing camellias -- a genus for which willow water is popular) did quite a lot of work trying to discover the active ingredient. Like others, he was not successful.

So there's the "good science" of willow water. Because of those successes, it has taken on rather a cult following. People "believe" in it in the religious (as opposed to scientific) sense. Among its fanatical advocates are rose, rhododendron, and camellia growers. Much of what they write may be true, as it relates to better rooting success. But their reasons for its working are often specifically not true. Their writing usually suggests either that
1. the active ingredient is natural auxin (IAA) or
2. the active ingredient is aspirin or some other salycilate.

Both of these conjectures are almost certainly false. We did quite a lot of work with aspirin and other salycilates (I should say Dr. Spencer, our chemist, did), with no positive results at all. And for that reason, the concept that willow water "works just as well" or "is better than" commercial auxin compounds, is not necessarily true, and the comparative result will vary wildly among species you're attempting to root.

For any who want to try willow water for yourself, here is the "standard" method:

1. Collect stems of nearly any species of willow (Salix spp.). Weeping willow (S. babylonica) is probably most popular, but we use S. caroliniana with good success.

You want young first-year twigs, with green or yellow bark; not old enough to develop brown or gray bark.

2. Strip off and discard all the leaves. All you want are the twigs. Cut the twigs into 1" lengths. Now you have what looks like a pile of small matchsticks.

3. Add enough water to barely cover your twigs. At this point, methods vary among workers. You can either heat the mixture almost (but not quite) to the boil, and brew it like tea, letting it soak until thoroughly cool, and for several hours more, OR you can not heat it, and just let it soak, like "sun tea" for several days, in the room-temperature water. In either case, when the liquid develops a greenish-yellowish-brown color, rather like weak tea, You filter off the solids, keeping the liquid. It will keep in the fridge for several weeks, or may be used immediately.

4. When ready to root your cuttings, make a fresh cut at the base of the cutting, and place it in the willow water, like flowers in a vase. Leave it there several hours, so it has time to take up a significant amount of the willow water. At the end of the soak time, you can rewound the base and apply an auxin-based hormone, or not, depending on the type of cutting. Then root the cutting in your normal way (we use intermittent mist).

On the efficacy (or lack thereof) of auxin-based rooting compounds, as I've said, I've never seen much effect from Rootone. I think it's just too weak for most of the woody cuttings that I tend to want to root.

The other powders, two brands of which are Hormodin and Rhizopon (there are others) rate their concentrations by the use of numbers, and lucky for us, everyone seems to use exactly the same numbering system. So their #1 compound is always 0.1% IBA in talcum powder, #2 is 0.3% IBA in talc, and #3 is 0.8%. Dip-'N-Grow, a liquid, is 1.0% IBA plus 0.5% NAA dissolved in alcohol, and you dilute that down to whatever concentration you want.

With roses, citrus, and other woodies, I generally find that the #1 powders, or DnG diluted to 1:10 or 1:20, are about as useless as rootone. However, the #2 and #3 powders, or DnG diluted to 1:4 or 1:5, often give dramatic increases in percentage of cuttings that root at all, and number and size of roots produced by those cuttings which do root.

There has been research to show that with these compounds, as you increase the concentration of the auxin, the rooting percentage increases, up to some critical concentration (which varies from one plant to another), at which the material becomes toxic and the cuttings are killed. So for any given species or cultivar, the trick is to find out how high a concentration you can get away with, short of killing the cuttings, and then back off just enough to avoid the toxicity. At that high concentration, then, you'll maximize your rate of success.

Here is a link that might be useful: willow water research at Florida Southern

Malcom - An excellent and most informative post! I'm saving it for my archives. I think your post would have widespread appeal to the hobbyists across the GardenWeb forums. Thank you.

Well, thank you Dr. Manners! You were much more informative & descriptive than I. I hope this tells people that willow water is not "voo doo" after all.

Toni, no I don't make citrus wine. Joe Real does. I make mostly fruit & grape wine (however, I did try dandelion which is still "working").
To tell you how to make wine here would take 3 days--at least! If your hubby made beer, the same place he bought supplies from should sell wine supplies & info on how to make it. You'll need a hydrometer, thermometer, carboys, wine yeasts, pectic enzyme, acid blend, nutrient powder, camden, sulfite, primary fermenter ETC ETC, and know what they're for & how much to use & when. Good Luck!!
Patty

EddieTheK,
Thanks for knowing there's a DIFF between poncirus trifoliate and flying dragon.
Toni, type in wine making on your search engine. I learn a lot about things thru the net. There's a store here called Purple Foot run by a nice older couple. Jerry wrote a very informative small book on directions & recipes named after his wife Mary, called 'Mary's recipes'. I guess you could email them for the book (& citrus recipes?)
prplfoot@execpc.com It's very cheap...they really don't make $$ on the book. It's to help people get started. Sorry Spike & Kybasche if I'm off topic
Patty

Toni, did you email Purple Foot?

Toni,

JoeReal already posted his recipe:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/citrus/msg0613223410024.html

I haven't tried it yet, but as someone who used to make a lot of bizarre wines out of everything I could get my hands on, it sounds very good!

Here is a link that might be useful: Citrus Wine Post

~Derek I was just wondering how your cutting was coming along. I had taken one from one of my rootstock's about the same time you were taken your's Mine is on the downside looks like maybe a goner.
My matto is. The only losers are the one's that quit Dale

i am looking for info on how to root cuttings from citrus any info would be greatly appreciated

thank you
Tom

Tom, take a 3-4" cutting from the mom tree. Dip in rooting hormone. (optional) You can either use peat pellets, peat pots, or small plastic pots. Fill w/a well-draining soil but add some peat, too. Remove bottom foliage of cutting, leaving only 2-4 leaves on the upper portion.
W/a pencil or finger, make a small hole where cutting will slip in after using rooting hormone. Cover hole w/soil so cutting stands erect.
Make a make-shift gh by covering w/plastic. Cut a slit in plastic for air vent circulation. Keep cutting in bright light but out of direct sun.
If you plan on doing this in winter, then bottom heat in important. That's one reason it's best to attempt cuttings in late spring/summer.
As soon as you see new growth, slowly remove plastic. The first day, remove about an hour and work your way up until there's no need for the plastic.
The soil should be barely moist, not totally dry but not wet either. Misting helps, too..
One reason I like peat pellets is cuttings do not need to be removed after roots set..after roots are established, the entire ball goes directly in a growing pot.
When plant is ready to be set in a pot, a 4" pot is best.
You can also add a mild solution of fertilizer and a product called Superthrive (hormone/vitamin) to the cutting/s. Both stimulate root growth. Good luck Toni

Toni
Thank you so very much for the info.
Best Regards

Tom

My cutting didn't make it... I'm pretty sure that I did a lot of things wrong, and with school being what it is, the cutting got pretty neglected (read: not watered enough).

We'll call it a learning experience and try again next time that the chance presents itself :)

~Derek

Derek, do you know what you did wrong?
Perhaps you can attempt rooting over the holidays or wait till spring..What type of citrus were you trying for?
Don't feel bad, citrus are NOT the easiest plants to root. Heck, I've an old plant book that says, 'leave propgating to professionals' lol..Not only for citrus but a few others like Camellia. It's not like sticking a cutting in a glass of water and waiting for roots to form. If at first you don't succeed, blah blah. Toni