You have me wondering.

lp

in the hosta world... alfalfa is used as a growth stimulant ... some peeps applying it ground or pelletized .. others making a tea of it ...

is it having the same effect??

ken

Could do - Alfalfa is a nitrogen-fixing legume, so soil that has carried a crop of it will have higher N status for a while after.

Resin

the other interesting thing ...

these peeps who plant trees.. including conifers... and water them every day ....

its amazing they dont kill more of them with too much TLC ...

it is simply amazing how resilient trees are ... when PLANTED AT THE PROPER PLANTING TIME ....

ken

Tom:

You have one that it up to your sternum--about 4 1/2 feet? That is amazing. How much did it grow this year? My tallest "seedling" is now at just about 53 inches and still growing. It was about 20 inches when I planted it last year. It grew about a foot the first year--more than any other seedling. Usually a seedling that grows the most first year won't also be the one that grows the most the second.

In addition, this one is still growing fast. It grew about 18 inches with the first flush, but since then has started a second new bright green flush. Quite a number of my Norway spruce trees are putting out second flushes of growth which at this point are about 6 to 8 inches long on the leader (2 to 3 on the side branches) and from the looks of the tips, they are still putting out lots of new needles and growing fast. I will report back when it looks like they are finished.

But a lot of mine, especially the larger transplants, are not growing so much this year. Some grew 6 to 8 inches last year, but made something less this year. But they have very thick, healthy looking leaders with very large buds. In total they are about 40 inches tall or a bit more, so I think they are "on their way." I expect a good growth spurt next year.

Our rain was very good through the spring, then it turned relatively dry. I watered two or three times, one gallon each for about 450 trees, 100 of them new this year, 350 from last year. The ones I planted last year really didn't need the water, but I am curious just how much they will grow with these second growth flushes with the extra water. They will have plenty of time to harden off before the winter. Those that had the second growth flushes last year had no problems grtting ready for the harsh winter we had.

--Spruce

Thanks all. So here's the deal, and this is gonna get quite long: Prep for planting consisted of spraying Glyphosate Pro (Roundup) in a roughly 3-foot circle where each plant is/was to go. This was done in Spring when the alfalfa and associated weeds were still short. Those planted last year, and to a lesser extent, this year, had the same type of herbicide applied around them as needed, as new weeds, and re-invading alfalfa grew around them. Last years' had several mowings done around them also. That initial planting was kept clean as a whistle.

This year, as the work load increased, I made the poor decision to try to skip the mowing step. About a month ago, when the ground was still moist, I went there one day to re-spray. Trouble was.....I couldn't find my trees! The alfalfa was full grown at that point....around four feet high, and lodged over, covering everything up completely.

Long story short, I've been spending all available time since then attempting to cut around them, made all the more difficult because I can't see the seedlings. Though I work very carefully, I have still managed to cut some of the leaders off. I always know when this occurs because suddenly, and immediately, the "pine" scent fills the air!

I have actually not even gotten them all released from their cover yet. Adding insult to injury, my machine broke down, so just this evening, I took it over to a guy to get repaired.

Last years' crop, though bigger and taller naturally, were also concealed. I found that I could always tell where a tree from this batch was because there would be a little clump of some kind of tall weed growing at intervals through the area. You know what happens when you kill off vegetation with Roundup.......something else grows there!

So........moving forward here......I think from now on I am going to devote more effort to the mowing aspect and less to the herbicide. In other words, give up on keeping things really clean around them, and just concentrate on making sure the sun can get to them. I think that in time, the trees will take care of the competition. I mean I know they will, but I'm talking here only about this early stage in their establishment.

I do believe the N-fixing attribute of the alfalfa has made for some good fertility in the soil. I also ponder whether having all that tall growth around these young trees might not have helped them to a degree in all this dry, windy weather. Since all the planting I will be doing here will be under similar circumstances for years to come, I am also re-thinking my species choices. I noticed that the NS especially seem okay with a little (Or a lot!) of shade in the early going. I seriously wonder, at least with this species, if I might not have been able to just leave things be, with the fast-growing spruce still able to at least get their main leaders up into daylight. Not so with the larch however, and definitely not the ponderosa pines, which were the shrimps of the lot right from the get-go. But the perfectionist in me wants to clear everything away. Once my machine-it's a string trimmer on wheels-is back up and running, I anticipate that I'll probably complete this job, and very likely, be doing it all again shortly.

The Wisconsin DNR has a very nice website on tree planting. There is a whole separate page devoted to working in alfalfa, so I knew right from the start that this was going to be challenging. But I must admit, even with expecting some difficulty, it's still kicking me in the butt somewhat!

But even so, the growth of these trees is generally very good. Spruce, if I remember, I'll measure a few of the best NS next I'm up there.

In other tree farm-related news, I've been looking for an old camper to park in the clearing of the wooded portion up there. Well. we have a fixation on old vintage stuff like Airstreams, Avions, and such. Well, did I ever score something. On Sunday, we bought a 1951(!) Spartan trailer. It's in surprisingly good shape. Spartan was originally an airplane builder, and this is reflected in the riveted aluminum construction. Not to go too far astray of the topic, but we're really excited about this. Cost a whopping $350. And best of all, it is located 2.8 miles from our land! Already have a big sheet of paper mill "felt" lined up from a relative. Everybody up here puts this stuff down under their campers. Not really sure what it is actually made of, but lasts forever, and makes it easy to keep the area adjacent to the camper clean.

I better quit! +oM

The last thing you need is to mow around your new trailer.

I forget but how many acres are you trying to reforest?

Because I plant something every year,I'm always hoping for rain,which some how missed us here tonight.

That's disapointing when the trees get smothered.It would be nice if you could get some help from some kids, looking for something to do.But you know they would end up cutting the trees off.

The White Cedars I planted this spring,are alive but they were all 2-4feet tall.The problem that I'd like to solve now is the death of my Hybrid Poplars.They are planted on lower ground,I wonder if that has something to do with it.

lp

Tom:

There is nothing like experience. People can give advice until they are blue in the face, but it does little good. Several people in this forum have asked me, "havent you heard of roundup" when I talked about my hand weeding of my Norway spruce seedlings.

Again, here is "the skinny." Keeping weeds completely away from Norway spruce seedlings is pointless--other kinds of seedlings may be different. But after 35 years of growing these things, I can see no obvious advantage to keeping weeds away from NS seedlings. There may be some benefit, but it would take very careful experiments to measure it. I have never in my casual observations been able to see it.

But, if the poor things are shaded, if even for a relatively short time--3 weeks or so--they are hurt substantially. I have spent less time weeding my trees than it would take to mix and spray roundup just one time. All I do is push the weeds away so the sun gets to the entire tree--not just the leaders. With grass it is especially easy: as the grass grows tall enough to shade the trees, I stomp on it to force it to Bend away. Of course there are different kinds of grass, and some are easier than others. And grass mostly grows in the spring and early summer. Later it turns brown and doesnÂt grow any more. For trees in grass, for the entire summer I spend about 15 seconds per tree at the most. Goldenrod I can stamp away the same way.

A few weeds have to be hand pulled. Among those is red clover, which can cover trees up to two feet of so. And there is another exotic weed that comes in and crawls over everything, sometimes up to five feet or more. This must be hand pulled occasionally--maybe twice a year, but in between weedings it can be stomped away, which just takes a few seconds per tree. I suspect your alfalfa may pose a problem that is much worse than my red clover. If there is a way of simply pushing it away so the trees are not shaded, that is all you need to do. If not, get some really tough leather cloves, and just rip away enough to give the trees full sun. Just grab handfuls and rip, rip, rip--maybe 10 seconds per tree?? Unless, of course, it gets out of hand completely, as your has done. But, forgive me if I am really off base here--I have never had to contend with alfalfa. Just trying to outline somethings that MIGHT help.

The problem with roundup--yes, I know there is an "extended control" type--is that it kills the cover of grass, which is relatively harmless and or easy to push away, to free up seeds of other things, which are not. For example, a big problem is ragweed, which keeps coming up anywhere the ground gets a bit of sunlight.

And finally, keeping everything clear from around my seedlings just makes them more obvious to the deer, which like to nibble off the leaders.

Well, good luck. Planting these trees, which seems like a big job, is actually the easy bit.

--Spruce

lpptz:

Above I said "other trees may be different" in terms of their ability to handle root competition from weeds and grass. Wow! Funny you should mention hybrid poplars.

If you started with cuttings, they absolutely can't have any root competition within two feet or more. Hey, here is where you want roundup, and then some heavy mulch, and then pull out any blade of grass or weed that sprouts--or spray repeatedly.

If you had rooted cuttings, then the problem is only slightly less.

Could this be why they died? The first time I planted these I didn't know about the need to eliminate root competition. Not a one survived! Not a single one!!

--Spruce

Thanks Spruce, and you're absolutely right, one can read and read but until you're actually doing it, relatively little is learned. I don't mind the mowing, provided the machine is ready to work at least as hard as I am! But yes, yes. The compulsion to kill everything off around these young trees is now officially gone!

Alfalfa is a perennial, of course, but a relatively short-lived one. I am looking forward to its mortality. Like any alfalfa field, there are grasses waiting in the wings, and a lot of other junk. But these should be easier to deal with.

Down at the interface between woods and field is where I have staked it off to keep the hay unharvested. This, I believe, will hasten its demise, and this is the area where future tree planting efforts will now be directed. The initial planting area is upfield from there, in the area where the farmer I've hooked up with is harvesting. Staked off, of course. He's a good guy to work with, and I anticipate a continuing relationship in the next few years. Eventually, the lower area will be expanded, of course, but that's for the future. But in this lower, nonharvested portion of the field, I anticipate a quicker dying out of the alfalfa as it is allowed to go through its entire life sequence, including flowering and seed production, which I am lead to believe, actually weakens the plant considerably. We shall see.

+oM

Tom:

Another hint. Mowing between the rows can free up the little trees substantially--but the hand weeding or weed stomping is still important. It will be much easier with the mowing, however.

But I carefully avoid mowing between my rows because of the deer problem. Here, if I mow paths, the deer love to walk them rather than go through the tall weeds, and as they go, they nibble at the sides of the paths where the trees are.

And it is the same in buck rubbing season--90% of the rubbing happens along the paths I have, but some years when there are more bucks, and more aggresive bucks, anything--and almost everthing--gets rubbed except where the weeds and blackberries are really thick.

What you do depends on the severity of your deer problem there. I don't like having to walk through tall weeds, with blackberries and thistles embedded, to get to my trees to water and weed them. I wish I could mow. But here I just can't.

--Spruce

I was one of those who asked Spruce about glyphosate. I do use this herbicide 3 to 4 times a year around my small trees. I attribute this and planting slightly below grade with my shovel as contributing to the survival of most of my plantings. The slightly below grade allows me to water the new arrival if needed. I haven't had to in years.
My situation is thus: I drive to Pennsylvania to pick up my trees (a day trip) and then try to get 1000-1500 trees planted in a week with a shovel. I have access to a large cooler if planting is longer than a week.
There have been years when I have lost most of the trees, but not since I went to the shovel and complete weed control.
Went to a Christmas tree meeting in Abington, Va.about 5 years ago where they had a test comparing growth rates of three tree species with weed control around the trees. I am not sure if Norway spruce was one of the trees, but white pine and I think a spruce was one. I will try to find out. The demonstration - eye opening. In each of the rows with the maximum vegetation control, the trees were much larger in all 3 species. Roundup was the control. The explanation guessed at the time was more water available and less underground bug pressure because of the reduced roots overall. Anyway I thought I might respond as a not a totally inexperienced tree grower. Hank

Spruce:

Thanks for the tip,I had no idea that hybrid poplars were sensitive to competition.
I have two 20-25 footers that I took cuttings from,just ten or so per year in the past.This year I have about 30 in pots,those I would try to plant this fall if we get some rain ,otherwise next spring.
My brother was going to spray some trees he planted with Simazine(not sure if I spelled that right)I was going to use some of that to get better weed & grass control.Are they sensitive to that herbicide?
I would just kill the grass in an area 20-30 feet then plant White Cedar with a few Poplars mixed in,and then Tamarack,White Birch would seed themselves much easier.Since I grow most of my seedlings I don't have much invested in them,but still would like them to grow.

lp

Interesting discussion. We're all finding out what WE need to do. For my situation, for whatever reason, deer have not been much of a problem...yet. A few spruce tops were nibbled off last year by something, I assume deer. But that's been it. No amount of stomping will get a lodged hay field away from my trees. This is THICK, heavy growth. BTW, you really can't walk through the stuff. In its lodged orientation, it is very effective at grabbing you by the ankles and sending you to earth. Add a couple heavy containers of water in your hands, and it's just not feasible. But what I am doing is leaving whatever stuff up and unmowed as I can, that which is not directly impacting a seedling. I think this will help reduce wind, and may lead to the unmowed strips changing over to something other than alfalfa sooner. So what I'm ending up with is less a clean, manicured look, but maybe better in the long run.

But yeah, if you saw what I'm up against, I'm sure you'd agree that the answer lies in something with a Briggs and Stratton engine. And I'll never be able to give up on herbicide usage completely. For initial prep, there is no other reasonable option.

+oM

lpptz:

I really know very little about the various herbicides. Some of them work through application to the foliage--Roundup is one of these. I feel safe using it if I can keep it off the plants I want to keep.

Others work through the soil and kill by being absorbed into the roots. I never use these. Some, those applied to lawns, don't kill grass, but will kill other kinds of plants, including little trees. Some of these may also kill larger trees if applied too heavily or if applied around a kind of tree that is particularly sensitive.

All I can advise, is to first read very carefully the label. Then do a web search and see what reports you can find about potential problems, and then you probably should contact your local ag extension office if you don't feel you have definitive information yet.

--Spruce

Just got back from the "spruce ranch". Indeed, the tallest NS, planted as a seedling last spring, is 48" tall! There are a few others not far behind.

Spruce, I did actually try using my feet and legs to move some of the more or less horizontally oriented alfalfa out of the way of the newer seedlings, and it does work to a degree. Underneath this mess, it was moist and moldy. Definitely all has to come away, and soon. I'm going back tomorrow and I'll have my wacker. Should be able to finish up, and then........turn around and start over!

In other news, the three dawn redwoods that I would have written off earlier are actually doing well. One of them in particular is putting on very impressive growth. All three Green Giants are alive also. The two smaller are looking great. The big 5-footer that I planted later in the year last year, looks the worst, but up close, it proves to be more or less intact.

Ken, if you're still following this thread......lots of benign neglect here!

+oM

+oM

This may be some bad news,but hope it's not.

I did the same thing some years back,by uncovering seedling from grass.Because they grew in so much shade,when I uncovered them the new growth fried from the direct sun.Maybe you already thought of this.

lp

lpptz:

No problem with releasing Norway spruce seedlings suddenly from shade. The problem is if they are shaded for very long, it takes them a long time to recover and resume normal growth--they just lose their growth energy. But if they are kept in good sunlight for about a year after being released from shade, they do recover completely. But I found that if a seedling is shaded for about two months or more, it may be better to just discard them and replant--it just takes too long for them to recover.

Other kinds of trees are not so adversely affected by being shaded. For example I had some English oak seedlings--tiny weak ones. They were struggling to survive in the dense shade for about 10 years. As soon as I cut away the cover, they began to grow fast immediately--I could see it in just about one month, maybe less. It seems every kind of tree is different in how they respond to different conditions.

--Spruce