I don't know what the ammonia smell could be, unless you fertilized with an organic fertilizer or one with urea as it's base and the soil is still cold, in which case populations of nitrifying bacteria would be suppressed. This would be especially true if the soil is wet and the reactive phase of your lime application is still in progress (if pH is still low). Water in the soil solution hydrolizes the urea which will convert to ammonium and carbon dioxide. This occurs quickly, in 2 to 4 days, even in cold soils, so there is potential for root burn.

I don't think it would do any good to repot, unless you DID fertilize with urea or an organic form of N. I've made thousands of cu ft of the 5:1:1 mix, but have never noticed anything like you're describing. I'll watch to see what you have to offer in reply.

The actual amount of a given liming material required to achieve a desirable effect on raising soil pH is influenced by its total neutralizing power (TNP), which is also referred to as calcium carbonate equivalent rating (CCE) and the fineness of material. The effective calcium carbonate rating (ECC) of limestone is the product CCE (or purity) and the fineness factor. The latter is the sum of the products of the percentages of limestone on various mesh sizes multiplied by the percentage of effectiveness, which that particular size is assigned. The more surface area in a given weight of liming material, the faster that material will devolve and raise soil pH.

The TNP or CCE that comes with most limes is only an indicator of the quality of the lime in its ability
to supply nutrients and raise the pH of the soil. The CCE (Calcium Carbonate Equivalent) does not indicate to you the solubility or the availability of the component nutrients. This is determined by multiplying the CCE by a fineness factor, which is determined in the lab with screens. The true value of the lime is the Effective Calcium Carbonate rating, ECC.

Standard Ag ground limestone should have greater than 90% +, TNP or CCE equivalent and fineness of at least 40% passing through a 100 mesh screen, 50% through 60 mesh, 70% through 20 mesh and 95% through 8 mesh.

I hope that (lime info) wasn't too confusing. If it was, just focus on the last paragraph.

Al

Hi Nkesh099, Al
i know this was addressed to Al and i cannot answer your question with that being said i just want to point out for Al something that caught my eye reading the thread .
Nkesh099 mentioned this

the soil in one of the containers has a strong Ammonia odor.

I wont comment further like i said i dont know the answer but for Al,
he stated 1 of the containers and makes me wonder how many were done with this mix and why 1 container has that smell only, also is there a animal around such as a cat, it seems that if all containers were done in same fashion with that mix more than one would have that smell.
If thats what and how the containers were done.
Martin

Al;

thank you for the quick reply. I didn't add any fertilizer to the soil, when I re-potted the tree. I was thinking to re-pot it again and changing my gritty mix to; 1 part pine bark, 1 part Turface (NAPA floor dry), 1 part grower-grit and adding either Epsoma Lime or Dolomitic limestone. And see how it goes. What do you think?
If when I took the plant out of the pot and the roots smelled like Ammonia, then what should I do them? Should I what the root ball with water? air dry it?
i bought the tree from EL and I saw slow release fertilizer in the soil, and it seemed that they made a 5 inch deep hole beside the trunk and fill the up with those fertilizer pallets. I removed all the old soil and got out as many fetrilizer out root ball as I could, but there was some left very close to the trunk in that hole which I couldn't remove them. Do you think thats the problem?
i just don't want to kill the tree. Which one should I use for my fig trees, Epsoma lime or Powered/Pelverized Dolomite Limestone? and why?

Navid

Martin;

Well, just few minutes ago I smelled the soil for the other container and it also does smell like Ammonia, but, not as strong as other one. I used grower-grite instead of Perlite for the one with less smell. It makes me wounder, if the problem is with the Perlite. I bought a 50 Lb bag of, Souther State triple 12 Perlite. It consist of;

12% Nitrogen
12% Phosphate (P2O5)
12% Soluble Potash (K2O)

Do you think there is something wrong with this Perlite?
Should I get a different type of Perlite? They (Southern State) told me, they also carry triple 10 Perlite.

Thank you.

Martin;

I do bring the containers inside during the night, because it gets chilly here at nights. So, i don't think the culprit is the Cat.

Yes - it's the perlite and you need to get the plants out of the soil immediately! You want hort grade perlite with no fertilizer in it. You actually did use fertilizer and what you're smelling is the ammonification I mentioned upthread. If the ammonia doesn't kill the plants, plasmolysis (fertilizer burn) surely will.

Al

Oh - I forgot ...... Martin - I was thinking the same thing - I had actually typed, "Do you think it's possible that a dog or cat did some business in your pots?" but then deleted it. ;o) I had several big tubs of screened Turface in my garage that I'd screened while I was bored over the winter. 3 of them had cat scat buried in them. I don't own a cat, and I had never seen a cat in my garage, but ......

Navid - use prilled (pelletized) garden lime (dolomite) you can buy at any garden center in 50 lb bags. It's the same stuff as Espoma's at a fraction of the price. The prills are actually made of very fine limestone and a binding agent. Tiny blobs of the mix are shot/dropped from tall prilling towers and form hard little spheres as the fall and dry on the way down. They dissolve soon after they are wet.

Al

Al;

Can I substitute grower-grit for Perlite? Would it work fine?

You could, but it's much more expensive on a per/volume basis - if that's OK you might as well go for the gritty mix. Not only will your trees love it, but you'll really appreciate it at repot time, too. It's much easier to remove from the roots than peat or even bark-based soils.

Al

Al;

Earlier, I went to Lowe's and bought the regular Perlite and Granulated Dolomitic limestone. I re-potted the trees. Mixed 2 part Pink bark fines, 1 part grower-grit (which I already had), 1 part Sph. peat moss, 1 part NAPA floor dry and granulated Dolomitic limestone for one of the containars. Mixed the same portions for the other container but, I replaced the grower-grit with Perlite.
I tested the pH for soil and it was about 7.5. Watered the containers and they drained perry quickly. Every thing looks good and smells good (NO Ammonia odor).
Do you think I made the right mix? Also, what do you think about my pH? its about 7.5. Should I raise it by adding more Granulated Dolomitic limestone?
Thanks a lot Al.

I think you'd have been better off w/o the peat, but you'll be ok if you are careful to wait until the plant needs water before you water. Ideal pH for container media is around a full point lower than garden soil, which is about 6.2, so 7.5 is already quite high. Any higher and you're almost certain to have micro-nutrient deficiencies. Forgive me for doubting the accuracy of that reading, but if you just made the soil today, and all that's in it is what you said, it's pretty near impossible for the media pH to be that high. I'm guessing you're probably getting a reading of your tap water in the soil solution.

Al

Al;

So, should I replace the top 3 inches of the soil with gritty mix w/o the granulated Dolomitic limestone, to decrease the pH? Or just leave it for now.

Navid

If you want my honest opinion, I think you'd be better served if you stuck with either the 5:1:1 mix or the gritty mix w/o a lot of modification or substitutions. They're well proven and designed to perform well because of their excellent aeration and superior durability.

It's generally a bad idea to have more than one type of soil in a container. One soil is always too wet or too dry in relation to the other, so I wouldn't layer anything.

I suppose I would repot or leave it for now. If you leave it and see signs of micro-nutrient deficiencies, you might need to start acidifying your irrigation water with vinegar to neutralize the alkalinity and keep pH from creeping upward, as it is wont to do.

Al

Al;

I bought a new pH meter today and tested the soil and it reads 6.5. So, I think my soil is OK for now. Will be testing the pH and Ca, Mg and P again this week to make sure everything is fine.
Two trees that were in that triple 12 Perlite (as explained previously) gritty mixture for at least a week, seems like they have suffered stress due to Ammonification and the re-potting. There is no sign of growth on them as today, or it could be its not so warm here yet (temps. are in high 40's and low 50's during day and 30's during night).
Do you think I should fertilize it with Dyna-Gro foliage-pro now?

thank you Al.

No. Withhold fertilizer until you see the second generation of leaves emerging as branches extend.

Al

Ok, I won't fertilize it now,I wasn't sure, thats why I asked.
Thank you very much for identifying my soil problem before it was too late. Your wealth of knowledge is indescribable.

Thanks

One last tip - pH normally varies widely in containers. Moisture levels, temperature, plant material, fertility and salt levels, even what time of day it is and where the plant is in its Circadian rhythm has an affect, so I wouldn't get too deeply involved with trying to correct what appears to be an aberrant pH reading by adding a little of this or that. You're far more likely to create problems than solve them. Good luck ..... wish you well!

Al

Al mentioned 2nd generation of leaves in relation to starting fertilizing. How are the 2nd geneation leaves identified for a plant?

Either the second leaf to emerge as a branch elongates or the first leaf to occur on new branching originating from the axil of an existing leaf would be considered the second generation. Additionally, a leaf that emerges from an axillary site that is replacing a leaf that was removed or badly damaged would be considered second generation.

Aside: In bonsai, we often employ the technique of total defoliation to reduce the size of leaves to keep them in proportion to the size of the tree. We wait until leaves have emerged and matured, then we remove them (on certain species). Since the tree has exhausted most of it's energy in its initial push, there is little energy remaining to push the second generation of leaves, so they come in much smaller. We might also partially defoliate the tree or certain branches that have grown too strong (thick) in relation to other branches on the tree, which is esthetically unpleasing. Removing leaves reduces the growth rate of that particular branch and allows others to 'catch up'. Often these branches are growing too strongly high on the tree, so defoliating also allows more sun to reach the lower branches, which also tends to strengthen them. This all comes under the heading of balancing energy in the plant or energy management ..... end bonsai lesson. ;o)

Al