Hi Anna,

Like I said in your other post, I'd sacrifice one of the containers if covered, pull the cover and eyeball and feel the soil from top to bottom, you have nothing to lose...may just need to mix a drier soil. I think lots of folks are very successful with SWCs and I'll be toying with the concept myself in an attempt to reduce water waste.

Having said that if I'm unsuccessful with SCWs I'll resume my current practice, but here's what I currently do:

- I grow everything in plan old black nursery containers (You can get nursery containers reasonably priced locally if you're willing to buy in bulk....)

- I grow the indeterminates in 7 gallon containers

- I grow Cherries, determinates, squash, cukes, zukes, okra, pole beans and most everything else in 5 gallon containers (exception  peppers go in three gallon containers)

- I sunk 10 gallon containers in the ground to put the 7 gallon containers in

- I sunk 7 gallon containers in the ground to put the 5 gallon containers in

- I laid a bed of oak tree leaves in the bottom of the "bunkered" containers to discourage nematodes since they don't like highly organic debris

- Nothing between the inner and outer pots, just an air layer to promote good oxygenation and gas exchange. The real purpose of sinking the pots is just to get them below ground level to keep the soil cooler during the spring and summer

- I use Al's mix, 70% pine fines, 15% perlite and 15% peat to promote good drainage and oxygenation/gas exchange...plus Nurticote CRF, and dolomite for a calcium source. Since the Nutricote I'm using is a 180 day product and takes 2-3 weeks to kick in I supplement weekly weakly with Foliage Pro 3-1-2 during weeks #2-4. When in doubt, better to put less fertilizer in your potting mix than too much, you can always supplement with a liquid fertilizer if warranted.

I'm sure something is missing so fire away with questions ;-)

Hi Tomcath,

Thanks for the explanation. I think I will get a few seedlings and give it a try. It obviously works very well for you! Unfortunately I can't find pine fines around here, so I will have to settle for a ready made mix and maybe make it a bit more porous. I'll have to figure that out.

My earthboxes have gotten old. When they failed last year, I took them in to the earthbox place to have them repaired. They had bowed out on the sides from years of heavy stuff. The soil was escaping through the bowed sides and too much water wicked up. Presently they don't look bowed, but I bet some of the same is happening. It may just be less. I think now they make the earthboxes from a harder plastic that wears better. I may have to buy a couple next year, but for now I think I may give your method a try. What have I got to lose? I learn something new here every day.

I did pull the plastic off the top and the dirt seems wetter than it should be, even though I didn't water them yesterday. I bet what Treefrog said is true also- that the water below gets hot, and the roots that poke through might get cooked!

Anyway, I think I'll give it a go. YOu explained it well, so right now I don't have questions, but will be sure to holler if I think of any along the way. Thanks so much again for your response.

Anna

I firmly believe the potting mix is half the success or failure, and best made by YOU! Drop me a line at my email address and lets see if we can't find products you need close to where you live.

Tom

Tomcath I sent you an email.

Anna

I buy pine fines at Wal-Mart. They're labeled just "pine mulch" now but look close an you'll see they're fines. Clear bag, purple label.

Are you two saying that any container grown tomato needs to be sunk in hot weather to grow well? Or just earth boxes/black nursery pots?

I ask because I was thinking about growing my tomatoes in half barrels--27 gallons or so each--but I need to find another approach if a container isn't likely to work well in the heat.

These drums are thick plastic, usually industrial blue. I paint them some less offensive color, drape them with spanish moss, plant flowers around them, for appearance's sake.

I'm growing a big better boy in one of these half barrels now with fairly good results--though they're taking forever to get ripe with this cold--but I don't think I've ever used a half barrel when it gets really hot in late spring, so I don't know if cooked roots is going to be an issue.

What do you think?

Bill

Are you two saying that any container grown tomato needs to be sunk in hot weather to grow well? Or just earth boxes/black nursery pots?

I ask because I was thinking about growing my tomatoes in half barrels--27 gallons or so each--but I need to find another approach if a container isn't likely to work well in the heat.

Hi Bill, I don't think you'll have any soil temp problems with that much diameter and soil volume, heat won't radiate too far in with such volume. I just wanted to significantly reduce the volume and cost to make my soil since I have 57 container slots...smaller container in direct sun = higher soil temps, thus the "bunkers".

Anna, I'll check my mail when I get home tonight.

Tom

-" Nothing between the inner and outer pots, just an air layer to promote good oxygenation and gas exchange. The real purpose of sinking the pots is just to get them below ground level to keep the soil cooler during the spring and summer"

Tom, how do you support the inner pot relative to the outer pot?
=========================================================

What are SWC's ??

Beginner bernie

Thanks for the info, Tom. I'm going to give those half barrels a shot then.

Bill

Hey, I found pine bark fines!!! I have perlite. I think I can come up with a nice porous mix now. Thanks, Tom.

I was also wondering about what Bernie asked. If there is any support needed for the inner pot versus the outer pot. My 10 gallons are sturdier than the 7 gallons.

Anna

Bernie - Arkansas Boy says "come on down", I'll send you an email shortly.

Doesn't matter if the inner pots shift a little, even up against the sides of the outer pots...haven't had it happen so far though because everything I'm growing vertically is either caged or trellised...I'll shoot some topographic pictures this weekend if you'd like.

SWC - self watering containers, the Earth Box folks are getting rather testy about use of their trademark name so this term loosely covers all the homemade bottom watering reservoir concepts....

Bill - I'm sure you won't have soil temp problems with that volume of soil. BTW, I have to thank you for opening my eyes to the fact that "less is more", by giving my maters much more space I honestly think the production went up 25% and the transfer of disease down by the same amount! :-)

Anna - that's great! If you're going to follow this concept I really think you should seriously consider using Al's mix, have you studied it?

All my nursery containers are flimsy except the 10 gallon ones. The space between the 10/7s is only 2.5", between the 7/5s is 1.5"...can't fall over and the trellis or cage keeps the plants from shifting too much...so far so good. Only one deterrent I've though of that I have not experienced yet, what happens with three hours or three days of rain? My little bunkers will be flooded with three days of rain, during the summer the inside containers can be elevated some to protect from three hours of rain, but the reality is that the bunkers will flood occasionally...could be problematic.

Tom

Tom, yea I would like that---"...I'll shoot some topographic pictures this weekend if you'd like"

Are you drip irrigating?

Bernie

annafl did you find your pinebark fines at walmart also? Il be trying to find some place in my area that has them soon.Im using 7 gallon containers doubled and in the ground too,this will be my 1st try at it.I think il be able to use this pinebark mix for more than one season by just adding more perlite and peat,im sure it wont be as good as the 1st years mix but should still grow some decent plants.

kirk

Thanks for the link, Tom. I read the main posting, but will have to read it again tomorrow when I can absorb it better (it's a little too late for me now!). I will study it in more detail and look at the rest of the thread. I have a question about the dolomitic lime. I know it is good for tomatoes to prevent blossom end rot, but Al uses it in his mix for everything? Is it because the pine bark fines are acidic? I'm just wondering if I use the mix for ornamentals or fruit trees, do I put the lime in as well?

Captn, I found the pinebark fines at a local nursery here in Sarasota called Troy's Tropics. It is a fafard product that is called organic soil conditioner, but the ingredients say 100% pine bark, and they are pretty fine. I assume it is the same as pine bark fines.

Tom, yea I would like that---"...I'll shoot some topographic pictures this weekend if you'd like"
Are you drip irrigating?

Bernie, I'll shoot some pictures this weekend. I'm hand watering so I can inspect the soil since this is my first season in Al's mix. As it cools down I'm finding I can back off to watering every other day to every third day.

annafl did you find your pinebark fines at walmart also? Il be trying to find some place in my area that has them soon...think il be able to use this pinebark mix for more than one season by just adding more perlite and peat,im sure it wont be as good as the 1st years mix but should still grow some decent plants.

Kirk, you're in Dade City right? If you get down to Tampa you can get 2CF bags of Pine Fines or Pine mini-nuggets at Treemart on N. Nebraska Ave. Or, if you have a pickup truck and want to buy a cubic yard Cypress Creek on N. Florida, and Mulch Express on N. Nebraska both sell it by the yard for $22, it's light enough that I get a yard in the back of my Ford Ranger with no problems.

From what I've read most folks use the mix for two years, then use it as a bedding supplement.

...I have a question about the dolomitic lime. I know it is good for tomatoes to prevent blossom end rot, but Al uses it in his mix for everything? Is it because the pine bark fines are acidic? I'm just wondering if I use the mix for ornamentals or fruit trees, do I put the lime in as well?

Anna, one of the primary nutrients plants need, just like us for strong bones, is calcium. Thus, it's a vital component of all good potting mixes....

Tom

Tom,

Sorry to inundate you with these questions. What gives with: less is more" ? I assume you meant you did not crowd your plants too close.

I think when you should post your Pictures and a copy of the first response to this thread along with a start to finish of your latest sucessful system. It should be under a new thread of : Tom's mater techniques or can we change this threads title.

TIA,
Bernie

Bernie,

Correct on the "less is more", Bill has been an advocate of giving the large indeterminates lots of room...instead of only three feet I'm now spacing them four feet apart.

My idea to go with the bunkers first originated from thinking about the posthole method so many here like, BUT I didn't want to be digging new holes for the plants every season, thus the variation of an in-ground pot-in-pot model occasionally used by Nurserymen.

Tom

Thanks anna and tom.If i cant find them in dadecity or zephyrhills then il head to tampa.

kirk

I'm loving these tomato chats lately.
Even though I'm not growing nearly as many these days, there's still nothing better than a fresh well grown tomato.
I have 12 plants growing now and a couple more coming on well for springtime. Have been eating many Cherokee Purple and some Romas so far, but others doing well.

Tom, I love your system! The pot in pot solves all the problems I've had with drainage, oxygen transfer, nematodes, soil borne disease, heat. Wonderful!
And your cages are perfect. As is your soil.
You really are studying and practicing the Zen of tomato.

Something I learned many many years ago about tomatoes...they need cool, moist roots and hot, dry leaves. If this balance can be maintained, they will be happy.

My neighbor now grows the best tomatoes I've seen around here. All in 25 gallon pots, well drained soil with some compost, dolomitic limestone, and fertilizer. Sitting on the sunny side of the driveway. Yes, she gets the same worms and bugs we all get, but her plants produce tons of fruit before they succumb to old age (disease) spidermites (whitefly) etc.
I attribute this to shading the pots with a thick aluminum insulation wrap. Along with her green thumb and attention of course.

A couple of things I do with my single pot growing method...surround the pots with other plants to shade them, and set them on concrete blocks to keep them away from nematodes and other soil insects, as well as for good drainage.
I'll be trying Tom's buried pot in pot for the next ones.

Though it has been said that we can't grow good tomatoes in Florida, it looks like we're disproving that myth!

Good luck to everyone.

Wow Tree, coming from you that is quite an honor, thanks! Ninety-five percent of what I have learned came from folks here at GW, the other five is just thinking outside the box ;-)

well i got the pine bark fines at tree mart,not a bad price either.I think they were just over 2 bucks for 2 cubic ft bags.Now the perlite was another story ,4 bucks for 8 quart bags.I would think you could get bigger bags some place cheaper than that.I found 40 quart bags of peat at lowes but i cant remember what the price was on them.

Tom any suggestions on other sources for getting the perlite or peat at lower prices.And tom do you mix your CRF in with the entire potting mix or do you spread it on the top layer?

kirk

Tom any suggestions on other sources for getting the perlite or peat at lower prices.And tom do you mix your CRF in with the entire potting mix or do you spread it on the top layer?

Hi Kirk,

They don't all carry it so you'll have to look but some HD's have the 4CF bags of COARSE perlite. If your local HD doesn't have it go to the Service Desk and ask them to have one shipped in for you, should be about $13. Otherwise, find a Paint Store and see if they have it in the 4CF bag, it's used as the "popcorn" in popcorn ceilings.

The peat at HD is very expensive. Get a 3.8CF compressed bale at your local ACE Hardware ($12), and when you go to mix your stuff up prep the compressed peat first as it will need quite a bit of wetting and volume expansion, then add the bark and perlite after you've prepped the peat.

Currently I use Florikam Nurticoat Total 13-13-13 and do put it in the mix. It's a 180 day release but will take a few weeks to kick in so I supplement weekly during weeks #2-4 with Foliage Pro 9-3-6. You can get the Nutricoat at Cypress Creek in Tampa but you may have to call them and have a bag shipped in as they usually only order 1-2 bags at a time...this is the same product as Dynamite, just $1.50/lb instead of $5/lb since it's in a 50lb bag.

Tom

ace will order 4cf bags of coarse perlite. it's around $15 for a bag. a fraction the price of the little bags at the big boxes.

ace will order 4cf bags of coarse perlite. it's around $15 for a bag. a fraction the price of the little bags at the big boxes.

Good to know I'll-man, one stop shopping ;-)

Tom posted this earlier and I am just kicking it to top of list for all you folks who wish to know how Tom bent the grate. He's still a working guy and not a retired engineer like me, he's way neater than I am, hope I can learn to make a garden that grows as good as his does.

bernie

Only one deterrent I've though of that I have not experienced yet, what happens with three hours or three days of rain? My little bunkers will be flooded with three days of rain, during the summer the inside containers can be elevated some to protect from three hours of rain, but the reality is that the bunkers will flood occasionally...could be problematic.

Tom

Updated information, I had to double-pot the bunker pots for structural wall integrity as my nursery pots are so flimsy that the sides were caving in some. In retrospect, I think it was beneficial in two ways. First, there is airspace between the two bunker pots so how could nematodes possibly get into my container soils? Second, when the spring and summer rains do come they will flood the airspace chamber first...the inner bunker pot actually elevates the soil container some and may diminish the potential for soil flooding.

Tom