Hi Ken

Here's my opinion before Edwin gets a chance.

Klucenice is correct as published. However, I think it should be 'Klucenicze' because as published in the Czech language, it has one of those funny, hooky things over the last "c."

Pinus sylvestris 'Little Ann.' I've seen it both ways. RHS Encyclopedia confirms 'Ann,' but they've been known to make mistakes.

Abies balsamea 'Eugene Gold' is correct.

Abies koreana 'Starker's Dwarf' is correct, however this is not a cultivar of Abies koreana. If it's Iseli material, it's probably an Abies nordmanniana of some sort. This error has been running around for years.

I'm not positive about your Pinus strobus, but the RHS Encyclopedia lists it as 'Stoneybrook.' It originated at the Dawes Arboretum. That would be a good place to seek confirmation.

~Dave

Picea abies Klucenice:

http://ns4.cpanel.hu/~egzota9/tarolo/conifertreasury/2011/023Etzelstorfer/Picea%20abies%20'Klucenice'%20DSCN1392.JPG

'Starker's Dwarf' is an Abies nordmanniana for sure, not only at Iseli's.
That nursery is world's champion number one in mixing up things in conifer names and species...

It's Pinus sylvestris 'Little Ann', not just Ann.

It's Pinus strobus 'Stony Brook' which doesn't originated from the Dawes Arboretum, it was selected by Greg Williams from Vermont.

Dave, maybe for a next time it's better to let me do my saying first before you do.
It's great that you're taking over the Conifer Data Base for the ACS but you're missing 20 years of conifers experiences yet to fulfill that job in a perfect way...

Edwin, while it may be true that I lack 20 years of experience of working with conifers, I possess a valuable trait in that I'm able to learn from the guys with 40 years of experience and not piss them off in the process.

Word

Hi Dave,
Hi Dave,
Czech words never used in conjunction cz, sz..... - it is typical for the Polish language.
Czech uses hooks above the letters.
In this case, the hook of the first c not last c.
Czech is a hell of a speech , we write to foreign friends all the words without the hooks above the letters....

Picea abies Klucenice the finding from Mr. Krejci, of year 1990

L+M S

Dave, you're not the right person yet for conifer discriptions here at this forum and for the ACS database, it's to early.
But you don't have to worry about this because I can tell you that nobody in he U.S. is capable in doing this.

Well...I guess only one person would be, we both know him as we visted him together last January.
He is also a member of this forum, he doesn't participate here, he's only a lurker...hi D.

Maybe you feel that I'm pissing you off, I'm not but the fact is that you're telling things here that are not true like the place were the Pinus strobus 'Stony Brook' was found.
You've to do your homework first before you mention this here on this forum.

Another thing is foreign languages in which your not familiar with.
Especialy the Czech language is very difficult but also the Dutch pronouncings are not your kind of field.

For example your finished record for Picea omorika 'Pevé Tijn' for the ACS database.
the following things aren't right:
"A small, globose, golden selection of Serbian Spruce"
>>>not true, it's a semi dwarf pyramidal shape, just a copy of the Picea omorika 'Nana', only a bit slower growing.

"Piet Vergelt (Peve)"
>>>not true, It's Piet Vergeldt and Pevé

Netherlands, must be written as The Netherlands.

"Note that in the Dutch language that Tijn is pronounced Tarn"
>>> not true, Tijn is pronounced as Tine.

"After some time, the plant may develop a leader, becoming cone shaped in later years."
Not true, it will allways make a leader from the beginning on.
Will's pic is showing a globose shape, something must have happened to it's leader in the past.

All I can advice you now is to create your own personal data base for the first 20 years.
Learn and watch very carefully what your friends with their 40 years of experiences are telling and learning you and then come back as a volentier for the ACS database again.

It's just good advice as a friend, in which I'm very proud you name me this way at the Genaral discussions of the ACS webiste topic "New cultivars worth talking about"-Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Filip's Golden Tears'.

Remember that good advice from a friend will cost you nothing and is worth a lot! ;0)

Here is a link that might be useful: Finished record 'Pevé Tijn'

word

The way I understood what Dave was saying was that the spelling adjustments were his "opinion" not gospel. I never interpreted them to be stating a fact.

I dont think anyone should interpret what ANYONE else says as fact on this forum. With the exception of plants that were personally introduced. Especially plant identification. How many times have I seen Abies procera 'DelBar Cascade' written 5 different ways. Delbar Delbar's DelBar's Delbars....... Anyways, just take them as someones opinion.

Everyone should do their own research. Use that info as a guideline. All input should be Respectful though.

Good job Dave..... What a thankless job. I also recall those Database descriptions can be edited.

Thanks for the words, Jason. Yes, the database is easily editable if more information becomes available or if something is clearly wrong. There is also possibile for ACS members to add their own input to the official record in the way of pictures and history. This has already been done several times and the input is greatly appreciated.

Lenni, thank you for your input on Czech spelling. What I was attempting was to apply the German "umlaut rule." What I mean here is that English writers will add an "e" after an "a" to create the same sound as the umlauted a. I feel that there should be a way of doing this as a way to anglicise Czech writing. It is very true that a plain "c" sounds very different than a "c with a hook."

~Dave

Now it's your turn, Edwin. First of all you didn't piss me off at all. My hide is way too thick to be offended by words, regardless of how lacking in consideration they may be. Unfortunately there's a long list of highly respected conifer people who offend much easier than I do.

Thank you for the input on 'Pevé Tijn.' I've made the adjustments to the record and should be better now. This is the point of making these database records "community property." They are designed to be updated as better information comes around.

"Doing my homework." As I said, my history of 'Stony Brook' came from the RHS Encyclopedia. Your issue is not with me, it's with Auders & Spicer. I did not write that book.

Lastly, your opinion that I should wait 20 years before editing the ACS database is one of the most outrageously absurd things I've ever read. Once again, I'll state what is true -- the ACS database is community property. It belongs to members of the ACS and any ACS member is free to offer *constructive* input to enhance the record.

~Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: corrected ACS database record for Pevé Tijn

anyone have pix????

thanks????? ... for the above ... lol

ken

Dave, I stay with my comment that someone who's responsible for the ACS database must know what he or she is talking about.
This can only happen if you've a lot of experiences which will turn in knowledge which you don't have at this moment yet.
The Larix laricina broom found by Terry is a good exeample.
You said that it could be easy propagated by grafting, how can you tell if you never did this by yourself?

By accident I found out that I've a very good memory when it comes to conifer history and discriptions.
For this reason I was asked to help with two conifer books which are availlable for the last couple of years.
One of these books is the RHS Encyclopedia, I helped them with a lot of discriptions, but not with the one of the of the 'Stony Brook', otherwise this mistake wasn't made.
It contains a lot more mistakes, at least a 150...

Now we're comming to a big problem which will be repeated in the U.S. conifer world over and over again:
To copy information and names without checking in advance if they're right before mentioning this here at this forum or at the ACS database.
This is how mistakes will come into the conifer world...

Since day one I'm a member of this forum I'm trying to fix all mislabeled conifer names into the right way.
This job wasn't without obstacles for me, but I survived them all, including this little one now.
Sooner or later you'll find out what I mean and then maybe somebody will ask you for helping with a new conifer book, wouldn't that be great?
But I guess this will be 20 years from now, when I'm retired and will write a new conifer book by myself including all my Filip finds which will be a couple more then I've already introduced at this moment.
Now you've something to look forward to, how about that? ;0)

This post was edited by coniferjoy on Tue, Oct 15, 13 at 18:37

First allow me to offer my apologies to Ken and his original post. Sorry, brother, I'm afraid this thread if irrevocably hijacked.

Now on fixing the problem at hand . . .

Edwin, you illustrated beautifully what I was delicately implying as flaws in your personality. I don't think you realize how offensive the very first sentence of your last reply is. Maybe it's because English isn't your first language or maybe it's that you acutally are that rude when you write. After breaking bread with you and hoisting a few adult beverages, I know that you're a good guy in person, but it really doesn't always transfer to the written word.

It doesn't matter how smart you are (or think you are), if your arrogance isn't exceeded by your competance, you have no chance of success. I'll offer this advice as a friend -- learn to play better with others or nobody will pay attention to you and you will spend your days sad and lonely.

The ACS database -- I VOLUNTEERED to start loading pictures and writing the descriptions and histories of the 10s of thousands of conifer species and cultivars that are missing. I get no pay other than my satisfaction of helping the association and gaining lots of knowledge. As I said before, the database belongs to EVERYBODY. That means if something is inaccurate, any ACS member can recommend what is actually true, and it GETS FIXED, often very quickly.

It's not going to be perfect the first time because normal people are incapable of perfection. The fun part about this website is that it is intended to be a community. That means everybody gets an input and they deserve gratitude for helping the community when they do help out.

I have no intention to step aside. All I ask for is help in the way of pictures and descriptions where there are none or if something is incorrect. If Sean or Will or I get no feedback that means that a record must be pretty close to accurate.

~Dave

Your words Glaciers-End mirror why I have rarely posted on this forum and never a picture. Instead of new posters being welcomed they are often met with an immediate attack regarding misspellings etc. This in my view completely takes away what I initially thought this forum would be, a place for people who love these amazing plants to celebrate them. I have learned a lot from reading the forums about conifers and appreciate that. I have also learned a lot about ego's out of control .Every mean statement said here chases away potential new contributors.

Not done yet. Conifer -joy maybe you should change your nickname to conifer-vicious, much more suitable. Edwin, every mean thing you have ever written here on this forum is here forever,. The day you referred to American nurseryman as 'stupid American nurseryman' in all caps did it for me. The fact that an individual is willing to put this amount of time into ACS without pay should be applauded not attacked. Fire fighter I love your pictures. Please keep posting.

The ranting about about proper names gets old, just like the SAME OLD RANTS that some others on here constantly rattle on about gets old too. People here are not taking a master gardeners class and should not be talked down to like they are imbeciles.
Edwin, I used to think your attitude was the typical "germanic directness" that I have seen firsthand with friends, a cultural difference for sure, but now I don't think so. It is really too much and is distastful. You have lost all credibility.

I believe this forum has allowed a few people to completely sour it. These people like jealous spoiled children if left unchecked just increase the misery for everyone else l did my research into other garden forums before posting.. What I found there was a supportive friendly atmosphere where people complimented each other. Advice was given in a kind friendly way. I have sat silently by for years watching this play out hoping it would get better. My plan is now to start upping the ante on the meanness and posting when I feel like it. I encourage any others that have been driven away to do the same.

Conifer- vicious from netherlands...you misspelled pronunciations and volunteer. Your rant is full of run on sentences, typos and misspellings. Also doesn't the ACS stand for the American Conifer Society? Maybe since you are so much more intelligent than us you could start a netherland conifer society and correct everyone there.

Hi cococo,

don't lose sight of the fact that if this is to be a friendly meeting place, somebody has to choose the higher ground. If we get into a sh!t-slinging contest, it'll just alienate more people.

Be aware that this board isn't the property of the ACS, it's public domain, so anyone is allowed to play here. One of the unwritten rules is that we don't get too wrapped up in writing perfect English -- we have some very nice people here from all over Europe and Asia whose native languages might be really crazy hard, so they deserve praise for being able to get their point across.

The thing we must insist upon is correct conifer nomenclature and accurate history relating to the plant. That's the reason for this board to exist. The point I was emphasizing by hijacking this thread is that the process of correcting the record can be done diplomatically and without condescension.

We all come here to learn things. I'm a regular poster because there's a lot that I want to learn about conifer cultivars and their colorful history. Our friend Edwin already knows a lot about conifers, but we can help him hone his people skills so that he can become the valuable tool he has the potential to be rather than just a "tool."

peace, right?
~Dave

Yes, I agree to a point but I have seen numerous attacks here occur from the same people repeatedly. In my mind this is more than a cultural difference .It is unchecked arrogance. It is driving people away from this forum. Spend some time looking at the other forums and you will not see the attacks that have been allowed to occur here. However I will defer to you because you are displaying courtesy and graciousness.

hijack.. whats a hijack ...

i just posted this so i can hit the box to stop getting these diatribes in my inbox

ken

Mudslinging aside, there are very valid points being made here by every person.

Edwin really is correct in one huge way, the more misnaming of conifers there is, the more those errors become etched in stone. If you say a name incorrectly enough, it becomes the new norm, even if it is totally erroneous from what is also displayed. This is a HUGE issue to some people, while others completely disregard it. The American public, to be sure, is often lazy and disrespectful to proper nomenclature and plant history, and to history buff's like Edwin, this is more arrogant than anything his bravado has employed. You can look in any gardening magazine and see plant names butchered or left off entirely as Picea mariana 'Aureovariegata' becomes 'Golden Spruce', etc.

When the plant I named after my mother shows up as 'Golden Coning Spruce' on some website or magazine, I'll be the arrogant, belligerent one calling or writing them to discuss why they felt it necessary to leave out the actual name I wanted to honor my mother with.

Edwin's job is largely thankless and it's a bit like holding back an avalanche with your arms - there's a constant new supply of new gardeners or conifer newbies asking where they can find abies korean aurea. Every day he makes corrections in an attempt to right what's wrong.

Now here's where Dave and others are right as well. Perhaps due to cultural differences, perhaps due to frustration, Edwin has long been 'gruff' at best and at worst, pretentious in his corrections. New gardeners aren't used to latin names or how to write them, including myself years ago, and probably due to the fact Edwin continually has to make the same corrections, has become irritable in his quest. Can't say I blame him, but on the same token, can't say I blame the recipients of this irritability for wanting to tell him to take his high horse and ride off.

In the end, there's a better way, but it would take a valiant effort from any white knight of the conifer naming world to wake up every day and try and set right the thousands of errors that are pervading the trade while keeping from alienating yourself from the very people you are trying to correct...

That's how I see it.

-Will

Very well put Will! And such a diplomatic way at that.

http://youtu.be/wmin5WkOuPw

Here is a link that might be useful: Click Me

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Wed, Oct 16, 13 at 15:02

You obviously care for your mother a great deal to have named a plant after her. If I follow your line of reasoning though mothers have a right to be rude , arrogant and nasty to their children simply because they have to repeat themselves so often. I have seen your garden and have read your posts. Your kindness has always shone through. That is also what I respect about you the most. You are obviously very knowledgeable but it is your kindness on this forum that makes me always read your posts.

I think Will makes some valid points and being a scientist myself i can appreciate Edwin's point of view but it goes beyond nomenclature. It seems inappropriate to discredit glaciers end on the forum in the way that Edwin has done. Certainly on a job such as the ACS database rather than denigrating Dave's abilities, Edwin should lend his services to correct the entries. By Edwin's own admission, even a book that he was involved with from RHS was full of errors, so surely he should appreciate how difficult it is. In my own field, systematic cataloging/nomenclature is not necessarily done by the oldest and wisest but rather those who are the most capable, organized and able to draw on the knowledge from multiple resources (because there is never ever one person who knows it all). Certainly also gross generalizations such as the "stupid American nurseryman" don't help, I noticed that myself. I certainly do think though that a lot is lost in translation.

I should add that I don't agree with one of the earlier posters, while it may be the American conifer society (I'm not a member), it should welcome feedback from knowledgeable folks like Edwin from around the world. And they will be better for it.

Keep up you're hard work Edwin...Just don't be so rude or these thin skinned crybabies can't handle it.

Dave, thanks for volunteering to work on our database. That isn't a hard job!

Coco, Nobody cares what you have to say! If you don't like Edwin's posts then simply don't read them. His posts have something to offer, yours don't! You stupidly start name calling just as youre complaining about it. Get lost!

A lot of emotions getting into this issue. We really should be adults here, take a deep breath and remember we're still talking about a HOBBY. If you're getting this upset, you shouldn't be here flaming people, it defeats the purpose.

I agree with Miclino on all points, indeed Dave's efforts and volunteer work are noble and he has great interest in making sure the records of the ACS database are correct in all cases. That's where Edwin, Clement, Bob Fincham and others come in. We can work together to make corrections, keep the proper history preserved and make the ACS database something the entire world can use with confidence and enjoyment.

There really isn't that big of an issue here, it's not like we're trying to pass a bill before the debt ceiling is reached. :)

Thanks for your kind works Coco.

-Will

Just remember....The higher the horse, the better the view! :-)
That one I learned from Edwin.

Josh

Well, well, I didn't have the time to watch this forum for the last couple of days and look what happened here in the meanwhile when I wasn't around...

cococo, at least once a year I met crybabies like you here at this forum.
You're crying so loud I can hear it at my high horse here in The Netherlands, even with the wind comming inn from a differend direction.
Mouth fighting, thats what some of you are very good at.
But let me tell you that this is not a mouth fighting forum, this is a conifer forum, we're talking conifers here and all things that have to do with this subject.

I don't care a bit what you think about me, but what I do care is that conifer names and their history which must be written and discribed in the right way, nothing less, pretty accurate will not do for me, because wrong info and details will be recorded for ever on the internet, you know.
Will told you precisely what I'm doing here since day one I'm a member of this forum.
Another thing I mentiond here several times is that there's also a Dutch Conifer Society already, and guess what, I'm taking part of the assortment committee.

When it comes to Dave, he's making too many mistakes for this moment, which can not be tolerated for someone who's responsible for conifer names and discriptions for the ACS database, volunteer or not.
The person who's taking care of this job must know what he or she is talking about and this can only be done if this person has a very good memory, plenty of experiences and discipline.
When missing one of these, you can forget about it.

O yeah, don't bullsht me about culture and language differences.
I made 3 U.S. tours and visted all the famous places, so I'm very familiar with the U.S. culture and habits, and my English language is getting better by the day, because of learning it from this forum.

I'm outta here for a while, got to feed my high growing horse ;0)

Thanks for the ones who agree with me, participants and lurkers!

This post was edited by coniferjoy on Sat, Oct 19, 13 at 19:49

So, according to Edwin, there's only one person in the America who is qualified to start making entries into the database. Everybody else is "a stupid American nurseryman." That one person is probably not interested in doing this. (I'm visiting him next weekend so I can confirm this theory). Apparently that means that the A(merican)CS database should not be created unless the person doing the job is personally approved by Edwin (a guy who lives in The Netherlands).

I've tried to use the Dutch Conifer Society database to reference some of my research, but I found that there are very few conifers listed and no descriptions and histories. So my main reference sources are the RHS Encyclopedia (which Edwin helped write), websites from the major growers in America (Coenosium, Iseli, Stanley, Buchholz and others), as well as this forum. Still not good enough.

For me to be qualified to do this job, he says 20 more years of experience is necessary before even starting. Is it fair that no work on the ACS database be done until some time in 2033?

Does anyone besides me think that this logic is somewhat crazy?

~Dave

Can't get any more rude and disrespectful than that. I hope you stay in the Netherlands.

I stand by my original statement that anyone willing to commit this much time and effort into ACS on a volunteer basis should be applauded. I would rather deal with someone every day who makes mistakes than a person who believes they are impervious to them. Oh, I wasn't crying I was confronting...big difference.

Well, my parting piece on this spat, an unfortunate one all the while...

I see Edwin's point again, but I don't understand his methodology of belittling others, even who's experience compares favorably to most conifer collectors but not to Edwin's. That's unfairly setting the bar too highly, especially for a volunteering position that lacks volunteers of any caliber, much less of one's with Dave's broad and growing experience. To suggest that only a guy or two in our entire country might be qualified to take this job is irrational. Additionally the way I see things, all mistakes can be CORRECTED and these notes would then be forever corrected on the ACS site, as opposed to countless Gardenweb posts where names are butchered and they stay that way, despite Edwin's valiant efforts and google searches lead people to these same mistakes.

The tragedy that I see is that this in-fighting within the conifer collecting culture only harms the future of this hobby and further makes it difficult to collaborate on historical projects such as the ACS database. Edwin has a huge wealth of knowledge in this area, this is not debated. Dave is willing to do most/all of the legwork to making the ACS database as near perfect as it can be. Why is not then Edwin willing to assist/edit Dave's work when he has time to further the accuracy of such a Database??

Put aside your differences and hop off your horse, Edwin. Your respect and reputation will grow enormously if you leave your rarified air and lend a hand to the less experienced conifer enthusiast.

Assist Dave and whomever else is working on this database. Let's be adults and make positive changes for the World Conifer Society...

That's how I see it.

-Will

Thanks Will for your explaining in the way you see this.
As you know I'm correcting conifer names here since day one I'm a member of this forum.
From most of them it's not traceable who changed or misspelled these names, that's why I've to make the same corrections over and over again.

I know I'm a straight talker but remember one thing:
Most of the times it were the U.S. nurserymen who made these mistakes because of careless behaviour.
Nobody here disagreed with them because they had in mind that these nurseryman had all the wisdom for these names.
And then comes a young man from THE NETHERLANDS who's telling here what they're doing wrong.
It's my opinion that this is not acceptable by several Americans here, and Dave is one of them because he's too proud to ask me for helping him (yet).
Let me tell you this foreign guy is cleaning up the mess here which is created by Americans, and what do I get:
A BIG MOUTH from fairfield and cococco, like they are the experts here, speaking about disrespectful.
How much help did they provide here, the answer is NON.
fairfield, at least I helped you out to pick the right understock for your new Pinus taeda brooms, remember, or do you've a short memory?

Like said before, wrong spelled conifers couldn't be traced back in most of the times, but this time I can grab one by it's tail who's trying to fix the ACS database.
No new mistakes will go in there.
I'm willing to help him, but he has to ask me first and don't messing around by himself because that won't work.

Another thing is "my high horse".
Several times I showed pics here of my nursery and all the comments were very positive and some where whishing that I should open such nursery in the U.S.
This can never happen because from my own experiences I can tell that nobody is so disciplinary as I'm in organizing things in the way I do.
The same thing is my way of thinking in conifer names, it must be done in the right way or it shouldn't be done at all, but there's nothing for me in between.
So what you're calling "high horse", is discipline for me.

cococo, are you a word stutterer?
It's very easy, it's just conifer...

Fairfield, you must feel lucky that I made 3 U.S. nursery tours.
I discovered all their dirty monkeyshines in which they're trying to fool you as buyers of their product...
One of these is the false Picea sitchensis 'Bentham's Sunlight' which the Iseli Nursery is planning to sell to you American conifer buyers.

I don't need no "thank you" for that, but I don't need a big mouth eiter!

Well, that's it for now, I'm curious what kind of answers I'll get for this...

Hi Edwin,

A couple of months ago when I said that I was going to start work on the ACS database I asked for any and all assistance because there is no way to keep all of this information on my head with 100% accuracy and I know how inaccurate many of the available references are.

That was your invitation.

You already helped me with 'Peve Tijn' I'm thankful for this help and I corrected the record.

In closing, I'll say it again. All further assistance from anybody on this forum in the form of pictures, descriptions, history, and corrections will be promptly added, properly cited, and greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Dave

Dave,
You're a bad student because I changed this cultivar name for you into 'Pevé Tijn', not 'Peve Tijn'.
This is what I ment with the "memory thing", you've to need a good memory!

In my oppinion it's not smart to add anybody's comment to the database, this will result into a big mess and will create confusions.
It would be much better if members can send you their comments by email or here at this forum and then you can pick out the most valuable ones.

But, I'm not a member of the ACS yet, but you can make me one.
Then I would be glad to help you with my info, which is then "nearly" for free :0)

How about that?

I'm working from a cell phone today, so I'm unable to create an accented-e. It's correct in the database. That's what's important.

I'm only an ACS member myself. Since I'm not a member of the board of directors, I can't grant you a complimentary membership.

Email is definitely the way to go with this process. Our friend Irena had already sent me pictures this way.

Lastly, it's funny that all of my college professors gave me excellent grades and called me brilliant. Therefore I reject your opinion that I'm a bad student.

Dave

Edwin, it's not the help that you have given, that's certainly not in question, it's your passive-agressive attitude. And your reply above clearly shows that. Every post you make makes that even clearer. I'm sure the next one will continue that same path. Basically, you need to learn some manners and quit being a arrogant and rude man. I'm through with this.

Bye bye fairfield...good luck with grafting your Pinus taeda brooms!

Dave, I'm not a professor in conifers, because there's not a degree for that, but I just proved that you're a bad student when it comes to the 'Pevé Tijn'.
Maybe the cause is your cell phone, but you could have mentioned this at least that you can't make such marks with it's key board...be sure that you're always a step or two in advance of me, otherwise I'll grab you by your tail-so to say :0)

You can ask the higher persons of the ACS to give me a membership, as you said, "Email is definitely the way to go with this process", well, imo this is a process also and the result could be great for every ACS memeber ;0)
I guess you've the email addresses of these persons?

Now I think were going into a good direction, don't you Dave?