Dani,
There could be a couple of reasons for this:

In the crosses you made, the pollen did not make it to the ovum - aka it didn't work. No seeds were formed, but sometimes the pod will still form ( I think because the pollination took place).

It is too hot/not enough water given to the plant, and it undergoes stress and aborts the seedpods.

The cross you made was somehow infertile (pod or pollen parent could be responsible).

Hope this helps some... Keep trying, some will make it! The cooler it is when you pollinate, the better luck you'll have (unless its freezing of course!). I have great luck when it is in the 70's and 80's, but not in the 90's or 50's, and sometimes in the 60's.

Some daylilies are notorious bad pod setters. It can get very frustrating to try and set pods on those. Last year GILDED SCARLET aborted every pod it started to form. This year I've been crossing it with one of my seedlings and it's been holding on to the pods. Funny thing is when I've tried to change the pollen parent, it goes back to aborting pods. This is just my experience with this particular CV.

Linda

Another reason could be the ploidity of both parents, a tetraploid will not work with a diploid. Do you know the ploidity of the plants used? You can check on Thinker's database if you don't know.

Laurier

All of the above is good info. My greatest experience with the pods forming, growning, and then withering is in the areas that get the least water, so I am making a conscious effort to water the plants that I have pollenated very well this year and will see what a difference that makes.

Julie

My initial reaction was as the secret agent says, a mismatch of ploidy. Make sure you cross tets with tets and dips with dips. Ploidy mismatch will produce empty pods that eventually wither and fall off. Excess temperature usually results in no pods formed. Lack of water causes pods to turn soft, kind of spongy, and abort, but if you look inside the pods, the seeds have not matured. They will be creamy colored to soft black.

If you are crossing tets, do it first thing in the morning as soon as pollen fluffs. Dips are more forgiving.

Good luck,
Ed

Just to clarify on my post above..... I was trying to cross tet to tet. So I wasn't dealing with a ploidy issue. I was just not able to get pods to hold on this CV which was well established, well watered, and well attended. It does seem that some CVs will accept pollen from one daylily and absolutely refuse it from another.

Linda

Yes, I make sure that they are matched correctly. Funny thing is, some are tets that are doing this, and some are dips. I tried to cross Golden Chimes x Clemetella and it was doing great and then...pppbbllltt. The weather here has been HOT then went to 50 degree nights and the 70s. It's all over the place. I think it also may be a little dry.

Thanks for all you replies! I teaches me that I will have to try HARDER! I'll be more persistent. Maybe if I really want a cross to take, I should pollinate more than one flower at once and over a couple of days. I noticed that prying open a flower on the Tets seems to work well. Maybe I'll try it with the Dips.

I do have some (hopefully) really great crosses, so I am not lacking in seed my first year. Now if Pink Stripes were in bloom, we'd be in t-r-o-u-b-l-e! I'd pollinate everything I own. *smile*

Dani

Since we're dealing with hybrids, there's no way to predict what the fertility of a given plant will be. Anywhere from sterile to those that will set a pod in a stiff wind. I also find that plants are in general, much more fertile when established than not, although there's a pretty well know hybridizer that says divide the hard to pollinate plants down to single fans and they will set pod. I guess they feel threatened with survival and throw caution to the wind.

When I try for a cross, I pollinate several flowers and over several days. You can always throw seeds away, but you can't depend on crosses taking every time and just because you have a pod, doesn't mean you have seed. In fact, even when conditions are favorable, surveys every year say that tet crosses only take about 40% of the time. Dip crosses are better at around 80%. These odds generally decrease as plants get closer related because of built-in genetic blocks to self pollination.

I do try not to cross plants from the same hybridizer. I don't get as good results crossing them and I figure there's the possibility of getting into in-breeding. If there was something to be gained from such a cross, I figure the hybridizer has probably already seen it.
Ed

Hmmmm...I guess I didn't think about "in-breeding" for flowers. Bah, that adds more things I need to think about to my list!

"I do try not to cross plants from the same hybridizer. I don't get as good results crossing them and I figure there's the possibility of getting into in-breeding. If there was something to be gained from such a cross, I figure the hybridizer has probably already seen it." writes Ed.

Inbreeding... study Stamile's pedigrees.. note the continuous use of the same plants to produce intros of a wide range of colors and forms. Note that some of these plants are the result of full sib crosses... half sib crosses or similar relationships.

Fella named Reckamp used inbreeding and line-breeding exclusively. From my view plant vigor wasn't factored in enough... but many of the Reckamps exhibit sound vigor. Yet his goal was a specific look/face.. which he excelled at. Most all of the newer Reckamps via Klehm exhibit good plant habit.

What is the difference between line-breeding [L-B] and inbreeding? None really.. the former is a watered down version of the latter tool.. L-B IMO has an eye towards allowing 'more air in'.. not shutting down the expression just per one line. Full inbreeding.. in the case of selfing in tets.. is the making of small rocks.. gravel in reality.. otta big rocks. Your isolating expression of genes usually covered by the over-dominance of one loci.. or gene set.

Your everyday recreational dabber usually equates inbreeding with a lack of plant vigor.. which is very wrong. One can select for plant vigor easily..

On the dip side the equation is more problematic.. the tet side sees both parents contribute TWO sets of genetic info per character.. the dip of course just one donation per gene. Your rocks into gravel becomes more like sand.. the edge cuts deep and quick then... with w/o the clutter of tet dual inheritance. Dip IB is not for the faint of heart.. very few do so that I know of.. be interested to hear from those that are.. the real purpose of this typin'.

One views fields of tet outcrosses with all the scattered data failing to make much of anything significant. So why isn't inbreeding blamed for this mess.. this reversion to the mean? From a long view.. it is responsible.. fill out a 10 generation pedigree some time... it all comes from the same place most often. While your math sez low relationship coefficient.. the net effect is the same.. it's just for socially palatable for the many that still think Mendel was the book on genetics. Mr Mendel barely got his toes wet......... he was lucky to have used peas for his research.

If your outcrossing daylilies mostly your doing recreational hybridizing.. which is fun and fine. Yet anyone seriously breeding most anything in the plant world is doing some degree of inbreeding to stack over dominance into the gene pool... that being breeding plants with specific goals in mind.

Ah.. rainy days. Finally at least we got some....

Well, it looks like we've got both sides of the coin represented here. This is one of the many ongoing debates in hybridizing. How much line breeding is detrimental to the plant. For me personally (backyard hybridizer), I do a little of both, and it depends what I am going for. I am just starting out, so it is very interesting to me (my scientific brain) to see what happens with in-line vs. outcrossing.

Northerndaylily - it *IS* very interesting when you do geneology on a cross. I have done a few back to 16 generations - let me tell you, it is a BIG spreadsheet. I started out with a 7 generation, but that was not nearly enough research for me! LOL. I was really surprised to find CRESTWOOD ANN/CRESTWOOD LUCY, FRANCIS FAY and BETTY RICE so many times. I am happy when I can trace a line back that dosn't go back there... then I can cross two things with different inheritance. (Something like EVELYN CLAAR, or ADAH with Stout great, great, great grandparents.

Dani, I guess in short, there is A LOT to know, and the more you look, the more you know, the more decisions there are to make! :0)

Dani,

What an interesting thread you started! It gives one food for thought. On the subject of pollinating everything you own with Pink stripes: Just freeze the pollen for next year. Then you CAN pollinate everything you own with any Pollen you would have in your "freezer vault". I've been storing pollen from several of my favs like Startling Creation and Sergeant Major. Also a great idea for those late bloomers, so you can even use that pollen on earlies next year.

Just thought I'd enable a little.LOL!

Good luck! this is my first year of starting my own seedlings and next year I'll have so many seeds I won't know where to put all of my babies. Guess I'll have to get the tiller out again in the spring!

Kim

Please don't assume I am for or against inbreeding. It exists and I think it can the best way to achieve your hybridizing goals. It can also be a detriment when used excessively, and that's what I was referring to in my quoted statement. Infertility is one of the early symptoms of excessive inbreeding. As I recall, that's what the subject of this thread was about.

So it's just my personal choice not to cross plants from the same hybridizer. I usually put my pants on, right leg first. Doesn't make it right or wrong, just my choice. As northerndaylily points out, most hybridizer's plants are inbred, so crossing them again just repeats someone else's work and btw, makes infertility more of a possibility.

I am building my own lines and then I'll line-breed within them. Maybe I'll have something unique and recognizable as my own look one day!

Ah, another day of sweltering heat......

From 22 years of inbreeding and heavy line breeding dogs...
You get the best and you get the worst. Much easier to throw away a plant than to throw away a dog. If you use these breeding practices then you must be diligent in culling. All my best dogs have came from this type of breeding, but also had some problems show up, but atleast they weren't life threatening.

An inbred dip cultiver that is producing really different kids is Substantial Evidence.

([(Lights Of Detroit x When I Dream) x (Lights Of Detroit x When I Dream)] x Special Invitation)

Cheers

You guys are very interesting. Thank you for all you thoughts- I appreciate them. It'd be great if they had a Cliff Notes for Hybridizing, though!

Have you ever searched for something (a hobby)that you can make some extra cash on but still holds your interest and makes you feel whole? Something you don't tire of? I'm hoping that this is it, whether it be just selling the extra fans from my registered plants or actually reaching a goal in my hybrizing and registering it to sell. I've started so many things before (stained-glass, soap-making, had my own (with my ma) natural body care business) and I'm hoping that this is the thing that will stick.

Thanks for any advice you can send my way!

Dani