lalalandwi - I'm with you on the Jellymaker thing. I just don't see it at all - but I read that it produces a flat, large flower on it's offspring!?!

Some of the Gaskins seedlings though are just gorgeous, I'd LOVE to afford most of them! So I'm growing the same crosses right now, wish me luck!!

-Chris in CA

I think it has something to do with the law of supply and demand....about the only thing I learned from my Econ class in college. LOL!

Sandy

Oh please don't get me wrong they are very pretty! Good luck with your seedlings Chris! You may be getting the next gold mine!

Sandy your funny! I actually loved econ in college. I do understand the concept of supply & demand, but the part I'm not getting is why it is in such demand? In my layman's eye they look like a lot of other dls that are on the market today & what is making her's so special? In her descriptions she says there is a lot of rebloom could that be it? The branching & bud count isn't nearly as high as some other hybridizers so I know that can't be it.

I believe the plant is relatively tall and the flower is quite large, for a white & purple eyed.

When JELLYMAKER first came out, it was known as one of the largest, flattest eyed tets with a double edge and tall scapes. Most of the first double-edged daylilies were short. The flower is also diamond dusted. Hybridizers saw it as an important parent. Mostly hybridizers bought it, and its not readily available, so the price stays high.

I'm at a loss on the Gaskins daylilies. The photos of the intros are very pretty, but I can't imagine why people pay so much for the seedlings.

Debra

My take on the Gaskin seedlings is that there are hybridizers out there that really value the genetics plus want to support the Gaskins work...
marea

Thanking you for clarifying the mystery, Debra.

The part that is really baffling about Jelly Maker is that the Shooter's do not appear to be sold out, I can't say for sure because I haven't tried to place an order. If you look at their price list it says $250 & DOES NOT list it as a SF so would assume you would be getting a DF where I see these people bidding on SF for just shy of that. HMMMM? To experiment I tried putting a JM in my shopping cart on their website & didn't get a message saying backordered. Not like I want to buy it, so I won't investigate it any further.

Further investigation on the LA about those Gaskin seedlings...guess who one of the parents is? You guessed it...Jelly Maker.

Gaskins seedling go for unbelivable amounts of money. I too find it totally baffelling. If they thought so much of the darn seedling then why did they not kleep it or at least register it? But then, I guess why bother when they go so much much money the way it is.

Rita, since you put it out there...

I wasn't going to say it, but why on earth would you want to buy the rejects for that kind of money?! They obviously are not good enough in the hybridizers eyes...

I don't know if you pay attention to any of the seedling auctions or not, but some of them sell as 'you get the whole clump'. Those are the ones that mystify me the most in selling for big money. A few of them are only selling a certain amount of fans so I can understand that one a little more. I get into an argument with my dl buddy about this all the time...why do you think they are selling off the whole clump? He insists it is all about the genetics it is passing on. Well, the little I have read about hybridizing, everything bad about a dl is the dominant trait that will be carried on & the only way to get rid of the bad trait is to cross it with it's sib AND then you can only expect 25% of those to be any good. Sounds like you are wasting a ton of time & money on such a small percentage when you could be matching a rock star with a rock star...of course with completely different backgrounds!

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong in the way I'm thinking about this!

From what I read on there one day...and I might be wrong, but I understood it that when they sell the whole clump, you can then turn around and register it, if you wish. When they only sell a couple of fans, and keep part of it, then you can only use it for your own breeding lines, if you choose, or whatever you want to do, but you can not register it. Jan G.

Hi Jan G.! Yes, I read that too which makes me still wonder why they would be getting rid of the 'next future intro'. There has got to be something wrong with it if they are willing to part with the whole plant. If it was really rock star they would be holding onto it for a future registration & introducing it?

It's all in the game. Wait 5 years and 99% of those seedlings and intros will be in the $10 range OR MORE LIKELY not even heard of any more.

I'm not putting anyone down for paying the high prices for any daylily - we all can get obsessive about a hobby but if you really want to understand, go back 5 years and see what was selling for big $ and see what happened to them.

"go back 5 years and see what was selling for big $ and see what happened to them."

I'd love some examples!

I would like some examples too! Since I'm new to dls, I wouldn't even know how to go about figuring out what was 'hot' back then.

Jelly Maker is a '05 intro, so we are already into it 3 yrs & it still sells for so high. According to Tinkers, it only has 1 kid, Marietta Princess. I don't see people going bonkers over that one even though it is carrying 'the' genes. Not like the Gaskin seedlings.

The seedlings are a secondary market.

They may be suitable bridge plants for goals that the original hybridizer is not pursuing in their own lines.

They may be the "slightly lesser" siblings of a very good cross for which the hybridizer kept the best to use in their own lines or even intro.

They may be "good enough" for a lesser known person to register & intro but not above the cutline for someone with thousands to choose from (ever heard the stories of hybridizers choosing 3 daylilies out of an acre of seedlings and Roundup on the rest?)

Sometimes non-hybridizers are paying for the opportunity to name a daylily after someone special in their life.

As far as going back 5 years to see the drop in price, that is the same in most markets. Those who want the cutting edge, latest & greatest, as soon as it is available pay for that priviledge.

Every product has a pricing lifecycle based on a combination of perceived value and availability (aka supply & demand). Think "Tickle Me Elmo", the latest computer or technology gadget (iphone, dvd writer, even Windows 3.0 in its day), the latest movie release ....it is a basic of commerce.

I don't want anyone to think I am trashing the Gaskins work. To each his own and obviously people do think they are worth the money or people would not pay. From my point of view, I can not understand the money. But then I do not hybridize. Even if I did I would wonder about first year seedlings and first blooms. Haven't we heard over and over again that things can change. Plus no were is it ever mentioned about branching or budcount. No way of knowing if those flowers have 2 buds or 20. Not for me, thats for sure.

If you want an education in the price drop of newer intros, just look at the prices on the Lily Auction for 2007 and 2008 Florida intros. Look up those same on the hybridizers websites and wow, what a difference in prices. Not always of course, but most of the time. You see growers in Florida buying up the newest intros, lining them out for resale and zap, up on the LA they go.

Amen Rita.

I really feel sorry for the hybridizers in this scenario. All that work & expense they put into introducing a dl on the market & the only way they make the most money back is if people buy it from them as it is introduced. It is amazing they stay a float.

On the other hand, I do see a lot of them selling on the LA these days...if you can't beat 'em...join 'em.

There is money to be made in the $10 plant market (aka volume market) too.

In that scenario it takes extreme efficiency in your operation to keep a profit margin and a lot of plants sold to make a decent living but it is possible. That is why there are so many people out there selling the $10 plants.

The difficulty many hybridizers fall into is that they are artists first and business person second. The decisions on which seedlings to market or how to manage their time and land use sometimes are made from an artistic perspective at the compromise of good business sense. The artist wants a reputation for being "unique" the business person wants a reputation of "quality and value". It is a very rare person who can walk that line well. Frank Smith and Bill Maryott are two examples of the best at it.

I don't grow Jelly Maker but I do grow some Gaskins. It seems more talk about a few seedlings than Gaskins Intro's.

GILDED BY GRACE - garden photo

If my memory is correct (unfortunately, its not what it use to be!), the Gaskins announced a year or so ago that they would be cutting down on the number of seedling that they were keeping due to age and/or health reasons. (Yeah, it happens to everyone sooner or later.) They explained that they would sell most of their sedlings and concentrate on just a few specific areas. That means that they would sell some terrific plants because they didn't fit their goals, not because they were inferior seedlings.

I'll say one other thing. I have only two Gaskin plants, and got my first crop of seeds from them this year. However, two years ago I bought a set of seeds off the LA with Wild Irish as one of the parents, and WOW! This is their first year to bloom, but they are the finest group of red/burgundy/purple w/ gold edge seedlings I have ever grown. Genetics mean a lot when you choose parents, and Wild Irish brought a lot to the table. Perhaps some of the seedlings on the LA will have a strong influence on future introductions. And beauty is in the eye of the beholder - - and so is value. If someone thinks it is worth that much, then it is - - to them. There are folks out there who would not give a dime for the one that your or I think is priceless.

Larry

I remember that seedling thread!! They are gorgeous! I attached the link to that thread so people that missed it can see what you are talking about.

You have now clarified a lot & now see why they were selling for so much. I didn't know that they were condensing the seedlings for that reason.

Here is a link that might be useful: Larry's Outrageous Seedlings!

Larry your seedlings are OUT OF THIS WORLD!!!! I can't wait to see them this year!!

Why someone wants to know do we pay big bucks$$$ for some plants??

GENES!!!!!!! you are buying that breeders hard work--breeding, takes-TIME and $$$$$$$--

Colette- gulty of buying one of those Gaskin JELLY MAKER BABIES!!!

Gaskins overrated? Not in my little world they aren't! Sure, it's easy to take potshots at people's work, calling them rejects and whatnot, and I guess if a person doesn't hybridize, ANY daylily is too expensive, but for my money I'd say I have received more pure, unadulterated joy from seedlings from Gaskins plants than any other I grow. Isn't that what this hobby is supposed to be all about -- fun?

Larry showed a bunch of terrific seedlings, and I veer more toward eyes, but here are some of mine from Gaskins plants. Did I overpay for them?

I don't think I ovewrpaid one cent!

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If my yelps at seeing some of these open for the first time is any indication, I'd say I have had plenty of play value from these particular toys!

WOW!!! is all I can SAY--BREEDING PAYS it does not COST!!!!

JUST BEAUTIFUL BRAVO!!

colette---

Umm, excuse me Mr. Tragar, the ol' worshiping hybridizer himself. Most of us are not hybrdiers & merely trying to figure out why a hybridizer would sell an ENTIRE clump of a seedling & get that kind of money for it. Common sense in anyone that has any sort of logical thinking process would assume there is something wrong with it if the hybridzer didn't want it for themselves, which now Larry has given us all the PRODUCTIVE insight on. Apparently you have only the cultivars that they introduced? I don't hear you saying you spent big money on 1 of their rejects.

"Sure, it's easy to take potshots at people's work, calling them rejects and whatnot, and I guess if a person doesn't hybridize, ANY daylily is too expensive"...ANY daylily? Why the heck do you think we are all here? We obviously don't think ANY daylily is too expensive. I would pretty much guarantee that everyone on this website has doled out money for at least 1!

If you want a potshot remark, I can certainly give it to YOU! My advice to you is integrity & credibility...never forget it or you will never succeed. A bad reputation will come up & bite you in the a**. Good luck, hot shot. Looks like the Gaskins did all the work for ya!

The only person that took the 'fun' out of it was you!

We have the pleasure of living the next county over from the Gaskins' daylily farm and boy oh boy what a treat it is to go over their every weekend and see their new seedlings bloom.

As stated before, the Gaskins are getting up in age and health plays a role. It takes time/years to grow a seedling and introduce it 4-5 years later.

We can vouch(sp) their is nothing wrong with their seedlings and what a treat it is to see them bloom up close and personal. Been guilty ourselves of buying some that top over 400.00. Even 700.00.

Being backyard pollen dabbers, we want to see what genes their seedlings can produce in this line. I think TIME/HEALTH is the key words here.

I do not think they want to put their time and effort into selecting and holding plants ready for intro. All i know is their seedlings rock on.

Cant wait til spring to see them bloom again.

iouone

I see this is becoming one of those name calling posts.
Tragar, you have some of the most beautiful seedlings ever posted on here. Keep on posting and keep up the good work. A couple of years ago I was lucky enough to win 3 of the Gaskins seedlings. They weren't going for as much money then as since they announced their retirement. If I wasn't busy buying so many new Stamile intros, I would have bid on some of their seedlings, but you have to make decisions as to priorities. Mine was to buy new intros. To each his own.

Dot

Fabulous, tragar....as usual!

I've always been so highly impressed with your work -- as far back as on another forum you first showed images on. So, proof positive that I was a fool NOT to have bid on those Gaskins seedlings? Well, maybe not, as I definitely don't have your eye -- or brain -- when it comes to crosses! But you better believe I wanted some of those beauties. And, if I had a better stock of potential mates, I might have tried harder for some. As it is, I tried very hard indeed for one Gaskins offering on the auction, last year maybe. I lost out by a long shot, even when finagling every way I could to win, and I still think about that one from time to time. The winner will, if all goes well, be producing some FANTASTIC plants with it....

As Colette said, it pays to use quality!

A few weeks ago, I bid on a beautiful carved pink seedling and I LOST. When I saw that seedling, my heart melted from such beauty in shape and coloring. I was outbid by a cruel person with more disposable income than me.

So you bet I am bitter on those pricey Gaskins seedlings!!!

;-)

I'd be bitter with Tragar too, for having so many, but since he was kind enough to post all these exquisite photos, all is forgiven.

Peace.

Thanks for teh kind words, folks!

I would like to say that I do not think of myself as a "hotshot", though, nor do I worship any hybridizer. I think as far as reputation is concerned, anybody can read mine at the lily auction and decide for themself.

I was simply trying to help show the genetic possibilities in Gaskin's plants -- possibilities expressed in the seedlings she sells as well as the named cultivars. Seems, though, that I have walked into it once again.

As far as Mary Gaskins is concerned, I do have nothing but praise. The plants she sold me were terrific, both in the quality and generosity of what she sent, and in terms of their breeding potential. Since I see her in a kindly light, I view her selling various seedlings, not as evidence she is clearing out culls, but as evidence she is wanting to share more of her great plants with folks who appreciate them.

As an aside, Nicole Harry purchased much of Mary's breeding program, and although I am completely in the dark as far as details, there may be some obligations involved in regards to registrations.

Now that is a PRODUCTIVE post!

Very interesting info on Nicole Harry. I really love the looks of her dls. It will be very interesting to see what she brings to the table in the future!

It seems to me that the topic heading must be incorrect!

Instead of asking "why", maybe it should have started more like "I think these sell for too much!"

Because I believe some folks are trying to give you some reasons.

Because of genetics (truly beautiful Tragar!), because The Gaskin's have stopped introducing their own anymore, or maybe because bidding is fun, or in my case...because I didn't have anything like it in the garden.

You did ask, didn't you?

Steve

I really think you need to go back and re-read everything I have posted, sir. Yes, it remains a 'why'. I now have my 'why' answered, thank you. I don't think you people read very thoroughly otherwise your responses wouldn't have been as they were. If Tragar would have read the whole post, I am sure he wouldn't have reacted the way he did. Larry explained what was going on with the Gaskins which clarified everything & then we all started oohhing & awing over his Gaskin seedlings. Then he comes in and makes snide remarks that were completely untimely & disrespectful...way, way past the fact. I can certainly appreciate his passion for the Gaskins, but it certainly didn't require him treating us nonhybridizers like idiots. And now by your response, I can tell you didn't read the whole thread either? Otherwise you would have picked up on the oohing & awing factor as well & how untimely Tragar's response was? Even if it was timely, it is still was uncalled for...

"Larry explained what was going on with the Gaskins which clarified everything & then we all started oohhing & awing over his Gaskin seedlings."

Actually, I oohed and aahed when I happened to see the pics, and just because I liked them....

The fact that Mary is downsizing had nothing to do with my aesthetic reaction to tragar's stuff. Anyway, the downsizing is pretty well known at this point I think.

Anyway again, I'm glad you see the ooh/aah factor now. :) They are purely gorgeous daylilies, don't you think!

Evidently, Lalandwi, my not returning your first personal attack in similar kind had little effect, as you are still spouting spouting away, but I think it's now about time for you to stop.

thankyou

At times like these...I really miss Spikes free trips to
Disneyland:)

Does anyone know if Simplton had a daughter? Just a thought.

Tragar, I am trying to let it be but these other people don't seem to want to let it go. I could tell by your last post that you caught up to speed & let your knee jerk reaction go & became very informative thereafter...as I'm sure you could tell in the post that followed. It's the other posters...

Still, on a side note, be HONEST & you could perhaps succeed.

I will now take my trip to Disneyworld, or is it Disneyland? Oh, doen't matter because I'm sure either will be paradise.

Happy gardening all!

"I will now take my trip to Disneyworld, or is it Disneyland? Oh, doen't matter because I'm sure either will be paradise."

That's what she said...Tee hee :)