You might consider Metanaturals. They are an organic liquid nute that I really like. I am a soil grower but they would also be suited well for a hydro application.

I too would like to understand why hydro fertilizer is nessa as opposed to soil fertilizer like Miracle-Gro that is water soluble and has all the nutrients as described in my hydro book except calcium which I am using vermiculite so that doesn't seem to be an issue. I've been feeding my new plants for about 1 1/2 weeks with what appears to be excellent result using a gravity fed drip system. I feel after reading most of these posts that I will suddenly get some devastating system failure. What does the soil do to the water soluble soil fertilizers to make them okay in soil but not vermiculite? Clearly I'm a new-b!

Iowajoe, Vermiculite is more alkaline, you should make sure your pH is within the desired range. I have been using it this year for seed propagation. I have found certain seeds propagate extremely well in Vermiculite compared to other media. I have also found not all plants or seeds can tolerate it. Vermiculite also seems to retain more water than other media, which can cause damping off. I have found my seedlings damp off less if I keep it fairly dry. I am not going to use the Vermiculite for hydro, because I do not like the asbestos & other substances it may contain. If I were to use it in hydro, I would closely monitor the saturation of the media & plant roots.

Thanks Baci, I am using it for tomatos so it seems to work well since they like the wet roots. I do let the drip stop in the evening and I have it well drained. I will keep a very close eye on them though as this is my first try at hydroponic gardening.

Let us know how it works for your tomatoes, iowajoe. I like Vermiculite  it is a nice clean media that seems to be somewhat resistant to mold. I am going to try & grow some natives, including ephedra, as well as some aloe in it, so my moisture need will be less.

Hydro fertilizers must be water soluable and must contain everything a plant needs to grow.
The main difference between hydro and soil fertilizers is the nitrogen source. Ideally, only calcium and potassium nitrate are used in hydro, where soil fertilizer often uses urea and ammonium based nitrogen. The urea requires a soil orgainsm that does not exist in a hydro system to convert to a usable product. The ammonium nitrogen can cause root damage if too much is used. It seems to work OK with up to 15% of the nitrogen source. Ammonia nitrogen can be used in moderate amounts to bring a high PH down.
Most hydro fertilizers come in 2 parts. Calcium nitrate is in a separate mix because the calcium will react with the magnesium and form a solid when in concentrated form.
There are a number of soil fertilizers that can be used successfully in hydro, with a possible slight drop in efficiency, but as a hobby grower, who cares?

Norm

Thanks Norm,
Like anything else, there's so much to learn, my tomatos are not as strong as I'd like now that they are topping 8". I might have to try a more hydro designed nutrients and guess I'd better check my pH.

Question: Would it be better to check pH in the nutrient before feeding, or afterwards when it has drained through to see what the effects of the medium is having on the nutrients? I will assume both; I understand the before, because if it's wrong to begin with the plant won't like it, but I'd be curious if the after would be benefical as the medium (in my case vermiculite and perilite) may alter the nutrient on contact or some time before the roots get their fill.

Check and adjust the pH in your nutrient tank AFTER you have added nutrients.

If you keep a daily log, you will know the effect on Ph of nutrient addition and can measure Ph before or after.

Here is a great site(again I buy from not affiliated with)I have posted 1 link for grow mediums 1 link for organic hydroponic fertilizers,believe me please I experimented for years in hydroponic gardening and tried side analysis using vita,peters,flora,dynagro,miraclegro,and the results were in rockwool(bulk grade 1 gal bags)with more expensive scientific fertilizer it was a remarkable difference,1/3 more fruiting,with taste and smell also improved,key, never reuse solution over and over unless you keep precise ec and ph adjustments even with ph and ec you will need to discard solution after a while(great for house plants,outdoor garden,ect),you will need a good meter and believe me and you will see a remarkable improvement,use the links below and then search the internet for better prices,you can find cheaper,search.You can get some awesome answers from hydroponic grow supply houses.You know what in the long run the so called cheaper miraclegro was head to head in price but not in production,taste,or smell.

http://www.discount-hydro.com/growmediums.asp

http://www.discount-hydro.com/organicnutrients.asp

I wrestled with finding cheap nutrients that would give good results in my hydro setup at first. I was paying around $100 for a few pounds of nutrient. With some help from people on this board, my solution was: I found a golf course/landscaping supplier. I bought 25lb of 10-20-30 fert (with ALL nitrogen from nitrates), 25lb. of calcium nitrate, and 25lb of potassium sulfate (way more than I really needed). I think I got it all for around $80. I've been using this for months and the bags still look full. I looked at the make-up of some dry hydro nutes and did some math to figure out a formula that would match pretty closely. It was much cheaper and I don't end up running to the hydro store every month or two.

groman,
Just to let you know the individual in charge if discount hydro was arrested for some pretty bad things. It was posted on another site. Just a heads up.

the nomenclature of nitrogen is confusing. amonia and urea require micro organisms present in soil to make the nitrogen available to plants. Amonium nitrate is suitable for hydro as is potasium nitrate and calcium nitrate. Amonium nitrate is now quite hard to find and liable to make anyone you ask for it from to think you are trying to manufacture explosives. It is possible that filters and medias in hydro systems can also contain the required microorganisms but that is not always the case. most soil ferts are also short of some micronutrients and calcium as these are typicly considered to be satisfied by the soil.

"groman,
Just to let you know the individual in charge if discount hydro was arrested for some pretty bad things. It was posted on another site. Just a heads up."

Besides, s/he uses the word 'mediums'! :-D

Personally, I use Miracle Grow for just about everything. That or Peters. Peters is a little better because it uses a 20-20-20 for its purpose. Miracle Grow is more like 18-18-18 or something like that. But I use it every chance I get ad have not had any problems related to growing.

I have been using the same nutrient for years and it has given me excellant results. Go to www.carefreegerden.com it is part of Crop King. Look for the hobby mix. They call it Hydro-Gro and you can get part A and part B. Oh and be sure to dissolve part A and add to the tank then dissolve part B and add to the tank on any nutrients. Part B being Greenhouse Grade calcium nitrate

I am from an area where there are no hydroponic supply stores and I want to first try out growing plants hydroponically with the possibility of eventually going to a commercial scale.(lettuce, tomatoes, bell peppers, etc.)Some contributors suggested buying fertilizers from golf/nursery/lawn supply stores, along with calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate. My question is....what about the micronutrients. Don't you have to add those also to get a complete nutrient solution?

DenZero,

Some soluble fértilizers contain micronutrients. If those available to you do not, you can purchase seperate micronutrient products.

Before you do that, you probably should get an analysis of your water supply, because it may already contain one or more micronutrients. For example, chlorine is a micronutrient, but it almost certainly occurs in sufficient quantity in your water supply.

Boron is problematic, because it occurs in near-toxic levels in some water supplies. For that reason, there are available boron-free soluble micronutrient products.

Chelated micronutrients are to be preferred because they resist precipitation with necessary ingredients in the nutrient mix.

MM

what is the aversion to nutrients meant for hydroponic usage?

they're clearly better, they dont smell, and ups/fedex ship all over the hemisphere.

when you get down to it, there's only two parts to the equation - nutrient strength, and the pH.

The key thing to remember with hydroponics is that unlike soil there is no ready source for micro nutrients aside from what you yourself add to the reservoir. Your standard 2 or 3 part hydroponic nutrient is divided up like that in order to keep the nutrients in suspension because if mixed at concentration they will react and fall out of solution. Plants can only absorb nutrients when they're dissolved in water.

Also, while you definitely do want to measure the pH of your solution after it's been added to the reservoir, it's very important to measure it before you add it. If you're growing lettuce and you dump a bunch of pH 5 nutrient solution in there, the odds are you're going to be really unhappy with your final pH unless it was very, very high in the reservoir beforehand. You want to measure the pH of the reservoir, mix up your nutrients, measure the pH of the new solution, and then adjust it based upon the volume and pH of the reservoir, volume of the new solution, and what you want the final pH to be.

But the most important thing to remember about hydroponic nutrients, whether they're a soluble solid, one part, 2 part or 3 part system, is that they're the right tool for the job. Certain soil-based fertilizers can work, just as you can drive a nail with a wrench, but it's just not the best way to get the job done.

Take my favorite 2-part hydroponic nutrient - Sensi Grow and Bloom. It's made by Advanced Nutrients and is designed specifically for hydroponics. As such it comes complete with all the macro and micro nutrients and has very high solubility so you don't end up with a bunch of sludge at the bottom that plugs up your pumps and sprayers.

Even better, the Sensi 2-part is chock full of chelators, which are basically catalysts that help keep some of the harder to absorb nutrients (like iron) nicely suspended in solution and bio-available to the plants. You could even argue that these chelators are more important than the nutrients themselves, since all the iron in the world isn't going to do your plants any good if it isn't in a form that the plants can absorb.

That's a good point that a lot of people don't realize about their hydroponic nutrient. There's more to it than just the NPK, or even the micronutrients.

Any fertilizer should be water-soluble. After all, plants can only uptake nutrients when they're dissolved in water. So simply "does it dissolve in water" isn't enough to make it a good hydroponic nutrient system. Try to get something like cinnamon to dissolve in water sometime. It's a pain. But it does to some degree. Compare that with common salt or sugar. Those are easily dissolved.

Same kind of thing with your hydroponic nutrients. Some things dissolve better than others. When you're talking about hydroponics it's important that it be as soluble as possible. Because you're not just trying to dissolve sugar or cinnamon or whatever - you're trying to get everything all at once. If one bit isn't very soluble it might stick to the other bits and start making chunks and clumps of crud that won't dissolve.

So you want to make sure that you're not just using a fertilizer soluble enough for use in hydroponics, or one that has all the micronutrients, or has the right NPK. You need one with everything all at once. That's why your hydroponic nutrient is different.

That's a good example, that sugar/cinnamon thing. There's a ton of different salts that can be used as nutrients for hydroponics but they all vary in solubility.

In a soil application it doesn't matter much since the soil web itself will help make everything accessible (to a degree) but in hydroponics it's very important that the nutrients be as water soluble as possible.

I agree with what hooked said before, companies like Advanced Nutrients are the best place to look for the most soluble nutrients for hydroponics.

We really need a "How to make your own homemade hydro nutrient solution" section.

You can grow plants with less than ideal nutrients, but if your goal is to grow vegetables then your goal is usually to eat them. Less than ideal nutrient = less than ideal nutrition.

Hi again joe,

"We really need a "How to make your own homemade hydro nutrient solution" section."

Well, fact is that there is a conflict of interest here, somehow. Some people want only suggestions from ready products, while others can't express them selves without the use of complicate formulas, perhaps biochemistry slang and "metaphysical" language ;-)
"You can grow plants with less than ideal nutrients, but if your goal is to grow vegetables then your goal is usually to eat them. Less than ideal nutrient = less than ideal nutrition."

Which is fairly true to some extend, but on the other hand plants are far more adaptive as the purist sometimes wants to believe. In fact in nature conditions are not always ideal - and, some plants can cope with such rather poor or non-ideal conditions while others do not survive.

This doesn't mean that one has to imitate some lacks and drawbacks, but perhaps rethinking that goal of "perfection" as well as the 'sterility' that some people think is required, - could be useful.

I agree, jean-luc, on the perfection and even the sterility. I'm not talking about survival of the plant, though. I'm talking about human nutrition from eating the plant. The plants survival doesn't mean it is highly nutritious for a human being. If all you use on vegetables are the basics for survival you lose a lot of nutrition that humans benefit from.

You (a) are what you eat (b). Likewise, your plant (the b you eat) is what it "eats" (c). So, a=b=c and thus a=c tells us that you are what your plant eats. Right? Okay, that's super simplifying.

I'll take a pepper or tomato grown with a complete nutrient over one using only Miracle Gro any day.

Did anyone really answer the original question? I may have missed it. I would opt for the first one, grampe.

I agree with you as well on optimum on (what we call) nutritional value as well as on related matters. Especially If you are a particular "hydroponist" and not commercial grower or farmer.
"You (a) are what you eat (b)"
Originally "der Mensch ist was er isst - in German (Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche)" actually relates to spiritual nutrition and uptake. Just a remider ;-)

As for the choice between 9-4-15 or 10-8-22, I'd say that the first with higher N (relative) is better suited for all kind of leavy vegetable, while I'd choose the second for all of the night shade Family.

For those interested, Nietzsche didn't originally come up with that. He may have adapted it, but that's all. It came from a French gastronomist in 1826, 18 years before Nietzsche was even born. Read Omnivore's Dilemma. It's a great book about the industrial food system. It also gives credit to the man that actually came up with the phrase, which is easily verified elsewhere. It was modified from it's original "Tell me what you eat and I will tell you what you are" by a guy by the name of Feuerbach in 1863 to say "man is what he eats". Just a little useless trivia.

"For those interested, Nietzsche didn't originally come up with that. He may have adapted it..."

For those interested: Nietzsche may have adapted it from this french gastronomist, but it may also have popped up independently in his own mind. His work rather tells us that he was perfectly able to have such thoughts by himself ;-)

You missed the point jean-luc. You were trying to claim that "you are what you eat" didn't relate to food because Nietzsche didn't intend it that way and I am telling you I don't give a crap what Nietzsche had to say on it because this isn't an existentialist discussion and the original saying, which wasn't by Nietzsche in the first place, DOES relate to the subject. You would only be correct with what you said if I would have said, "According to Nietzsche. . ." I think it is obvious that since we are talking about physical nutrition I am not quoting a philosopher.

I didn't miss your point at all Joe, as obvious at it was.
Instead you completely missed mine, while insisting a bit too much on yours.
I was just curious about your spiritual diet and social interests, nothing more.

But as you give a crap about what Nietzsche had-, and me have to -say, I guess I do not need to investigate any further. ;-)

Oh goody. Another person that likes to twist words and cover up when they are wrong with total BS. You didn't ask me any question about my spiritual diet or social interests. You were trying to correct me. I don't mind being corrected and had I been wrong I would have not felt compelled to call you on the bad info. It wasn't that big of a deal.

I didn't say I don't care what Nietzsche said or what you have to say (hence my twisting of words comment). I said I don't care what Nietzsche said on this. He was a philosopher. Not the subject here at all.

"You were trying to correct me. I don't mind being corrected and had I been wrong I would have not felt compelled to call you on the bad info."

Sorry, you get it all wrong again Joe. I did't even intend to correct you, I saw it as a supplementary input and as a little teasing. You don't realise that one can ask questions, without expressing them in a interrogative and explicit form - or do you? By the way: it was no bad info I gave, but one that is contested.

What I was actually saying implicitly was that spiritual nutrition is perhaps as important as nutritional diet. As for me it clearly IS damn subject, because I truly think the "spirit" one follows in life and with hydroponics is equally important as nutritional value of your own crops. Exactly, - the personal philosophy behind it! ;-)

But let me try again to make myself at least more clear and hopefully unmistakably about the main subject (I of course agree with that point).

What about exact NUTRITIONAL VALUE one can actually achieve through growing with hydroponics and specific mixes? I have to admit that I have little knowledge about scientific data on this particular topic. During the topic I started about "taste and flavour" with hydroponics, gringojay came up with many information that was truly interesting. But I guess that on the topic of nutritional value, scientific data should be more conclusive -as taste is and remains a rather subjective matter after all. With this topic we also understood that nutrients have clear limitations concerning taste, as some of the taste may come through decomposition processes in the soil. What about proper nutritional facts, may there be limits too, compared to soil culture?

Ones intentions and goals are one part of the equation only, aren't they? Have you investigated the topic from your side (but from a objective and rather scientific perspective), and what is the outcome and your conclusion?

No test here or any other hidden alogations - I am truly interest and curious.