Maybe it would work up to a certain point, especially if you used some kind of big chunky rocks instead of gravel. Of course, you've got weeds to worry about, too. Seems like a bad idea to me.

Does anyone know if the garderners in a japanese garden take any effort in the spring to clear away all the dead fallen leafs? I piched about 40 liters of dead leafes mostly from oaks and willows but also a little from my bamboo and maples. How much effort is taken in japan to clear away all this stuff? I read once about a scene with a japanese maple in the autumm... the gardener didnt think the scene was perfect until he shaked the tree a little so that a few red/yellow leafs dropped to the ground under it...

Anyone have any thoughts?

/peter

What do you mean by "in the spring?" How does "every day" sound, instead? Only a sloppy gardener/owner would wait until spring to clean up fallen leaves.

Well I do collect some leaves during the autumm but then we have snow from november to match then its impossible to clean any leaves. And then when the snow is gone (like it is now) There are lots of leaves to clean everywhere.

Anyway, my question was about how japanese gardens felt about leaves. In western gardens they should be cleaned away from the lawn as soon as possible

/Cheers

How are leaves traditionally cleaned from gravel? Can they be swept or raked out in any way?

I once read in a Japanese gardening book that a very old man or a boy should be the one to sweep or rake the garden because neither would be too diligent and it was picturesque, having a few missed fallen leaves here and there. If kept too carefully clean of fallen leaves it could look artificial rather than natural and spoil the feel.

But again, can you rake leaves out of gravel? I've never had any gravel in the garden before, so any imformation on how to maintain it would be helpful.
Thanks,

Bill

Thank you for the information, Matrinka. It's very helpful. Whether or not I go with gravel, I'm going to try that boiling water trick on the patio, where weeds are always coming up through the cracks.

Bill

This year I'm killing out the few remaining weeds and am actually going to spread the stones in my patio out so I can plant between them. If something insists upong growing there, let it be thyme! ;) On one side of the house the garden is rather English cottage style (the other side is Oriental influenced), so that will deal with that issue.

On the Oriental side, I'll be installing a meditation deck next spring. Just a quiet spot to do my yoga in the garden without being exposed to the street. I thought originally of doing a zen garden in that space, but I really do need a place outdoors to do my yoga more right now. Someday I'll have the space to have both. The pathway into that will be pebbles, as my walk out the back is. Which is why I have any clue how to maintain gravel. You HAVE to keep it cleaned out, or it will fill up with weeds in short order.

I use the "vacuum" function of the blower. It seems to work for everything except the smallest stones.
Dave

Hey Bill,

I lived in north Florida for 20 years and I know about the torrent of leaves from the oaks in spring, especially the laurel oaks. Since they are so small, thin, and light, they will pose a problem getting into the gravel areas, so a lot depends on how much time you are willing to devote to cleaning them out. I think that once a week is a good idea most of the time in which case a blower should work fine. During heavy leaf fall you're gonna have to be more aggressive about it.

Here in Japan small rakes and traditional brooms made of plant materials are used frequently, if not daily, to remove unwanted leaves, etc. A traditional garden will be very clean most of the time with bare soil in many spots, some mossy areas, and of course gravel. Yes, fallen flowers and leaves are enjoyed for short periods, but are always removed before they become a problem. A well kept garden in Japan (and anywhere really!) is high maintanence.

BTW, I would use a finer gravel, not one with a large diameter since there is less space for leaves, sticks, etc. to lodge into.

Good luck!

PF

What type gravel are you guys using?

Castorp, both the type of leaves and the type of gravel are important variables. I have a lot of gravel paths and driveway to keep clean. The main trees overhead are cedars and firs, so the tree litter is composed of very small needles--it would be almost a blessing to clean up only after a deciduous tree with "normal" sized leaves. The blower is ineffective on the small needles etc.

The original rock/gravel applied by the previous homeowner was inch and a quarter and was impossible to keep clean; raking only dislodged the rocks and didn't succeed in collecting much of the tree debris--but blowing might have worked if the leaves were bigger. Debris tended to stick to the surface and decompose, so, basically there is a layer of dirt accumulating on the rocked surface.

Remodeling the driveway--
The first time around, I covered the existing paths etc. with 5/8 minus (5/8ths of an inch and smaller--to dust) gravel but, although it was an improvement, raking still dislodged quite a bit of rock and blowing was ineffective for removing the leaves which had become sodden or embedded in the surface. At the time, this was the smallest gravel available to me. Then, after much searching, I located quarter minus (also called #4 to dust) gravel which is less than 1/4th of an inch and contains fines and I put a 2 inch layer of that over the top of the existing driveway/paths. This is a much superior surface. It compacts very closely like decomposed stone. I can easily rake it clean even of the small debris--bigger leaves and sticks are MUCH easier to collect. I do lose a certain amount of gravel each time, mostly because some of the bigger rocks from underneath get caught up by the raking. Reapplication of new gravel is necessary, maybe 2-3 large wheelbarrows full per 200 sq feet of paths (OK-this is just a wild guess) and not necessary every time.

For everyone who has posted a question in this thread--
Take time to locate a "real" rockyard. The selection is vastly improved over what you may be used to seeing at HD or Lowes. I have no experience with the types of rock used in "real" Japanese gardens, but you must look for sharp gravel (preferably with fines in it) if you want a stable path. Washed or round stone like pea gravel will never really compact and will continue to feel mushy and roll around under foot.

The key term is "crushed rock."

To clean my raked garden I initially use the leaf blower (on turtle speed) then the vaccuum mode. My medium is coarse sand, so when the vaccuum mode is turned off the sand falls out due to the weight. I do not know if this will work with crushed granite.

Weeds are not a problem in the raked garden because I installed a high grade weed barrier before installing the sand.

The maintenance of a raked garden is extreme but well worth the effort. Cleaning should be done daily, but who has the time?

I use a plain ole push broom with soft bristles. It brushes up the leaves of all sizes but pea gravel rolls and just stays where it was all nice and clean.-easy, quiet and quick.

Castorp, I have a beautiful flagstone patio and inground swimming pool in my back yard, which my husband and I did ourselves (to save thousands of dollars). Surrounding them I put in four landscaped gardens, all of which I used red limestone in place of mulch. It was much more expensive, but long-term is a great savings because it requires no replacement and very little maintenance. I have a beautiful garden of a backyard and I do very little maintenance when it comes to my red limestone. I have both leaves and needles, but what doesn't blow with the blower I leave there. With the limestone being so similar to the soil color not much is very obvious, and what is, still looks fine. Red limestone has different names in different areas, but I absolutely love it. I laid a brick sidewalk because you definitely cannot walk on limestone in barefeet unless it is very packed limestone sand. There is another ornamental limestone that is multicolored...red, yellow, and green, that actually looks like it has leaves in it. It happens to be the most expensive stone you can buy at the nursery that I shop at.
I would suggest a dark stone to hide leaves that won't blow and spend less time maintaining and more time enjoying.
I love the soil and plants but my garden wouldn't rock without it's stones, bricks, and blocks.
Cathy

I found the postings helpful but still am concerned about side property that muct have(according to code) a permeable surface. Grass will not grow because of two maple trees within this relatively small area. So, leaves and possible litter (I have dogs) might cause a problem to me and to my gardener. I've come away from my reading smarter but still confused as to the best way to go.

I'm with yogagarden--I sweep them up with a broom, and it disturbs the gravel very little. Sometimes I use the blower first, to get rid of the biggest of them. But I don't use a pushbroom, I just use a regular angled broom that I keep designated for outdoor jobs. It gets into corners and crannies very well.

We have over 200 linear feeet of pea gravel paths. To use the rake causes so much material loss that we were wondering if there were a powerful enough cordless leaf blower that would work. In looking at the stores they all seem only to work, and not really all that well, on a paved area. Any suggestions of one that were strong enough to handle the task. Sam in Charlotte

1. Use a leaf blower. After the surface has blown off, use a metal rake to gather the leaves together and then dump them into a bin.

2. To make sure that the area is foliage-free, use a rake with thin wire to get the leaves hidden beneath the rocks.

*Repeat step 1*

3. Finally, rake the gravel in a single direction for the surface to look neat and even out.

Archer is hilarious! These are all great tips. I wish I had a leaf blower. I have pea gravel, and it's awful. It takes me forever to clean it. It came with the property and I don't have money to replace it. I'll deal with it for now.

Using a leaf blower works well provided you don't use it full throttle : Keep your speed relative to the gravel size. The larger the leaf size the easier it is to clean, but fine leaves such as Honey Locust (Gleditsia tricanthos), and trees that shed catkins, seeds, flowers and fruits-nuts-acorns, will always be a problem. Even Pine and Spruce needles can be a pain too.
Do your daily garden working meditation by raking the gravel smooth after most of the debris is cleaned first.

I have significant amount of river stone in my front and back yard. I installed the stone to keep my neighbors cats out and it works, however, leaf drop becomes a problem over time.
My old leaf blower would help, however, it always left some leaves behind. Either in tight spots or elsewhere the blower could not get everything. My old blower finally gave out and I just bought a new gas powered shredder vac and use it on vac mode. It has made a tremendous improvement. It picks up the dust, dirt and leaves between the stone and now it is starting to look clean again. I have only used it twice so a few more times and everything will be clean.

Joseph, it's obvious you haven't done much gardening because you recommend landscape fabric as a way to solve the weed problem. It's been proven time and time again not to be worth it by serious gardeners and casual hobbyists.

I consider it a nightmare. It's starts out all nice and fine, but it gets worse and worse,... and ends in a horror show.

Have you ever removed it? Sooner or later you will have to.

Also, this Forum is not the place for snarky comments.

Mike

I had an arborist at my new house (was Mar 2005) for some estimates & he said "you should remove the landscape fabric. It's a bad product". Told him I planned to remove it. I didn't put it there. Did remove it. Soil under it was dry, no worms. Areas WITHOUT fabric had wonderful soil. Live in a woodland with lots of organic matter. My nephew & his wife just bought a home. There was landscape fabric. Guess what I told him...

Of course I do. Mentioned it because his opinion is valid. Previous owners had the fabric around the trees (his area of expertise). The fabric didn't prevent weeds - just inhibited the water from penetrating and the earthworm activity. There was a lot of dirt & weeds ON the fabric. I am not offended that you use it. You seem to be offended that I don't.

Leaf and debris removal is usually a daily chore. Rake the gravel smooth and rake in your abstract wave patterns should be done daily if you want a pristine appearance. Animals and birds always seem to mess up smooth patterned gravel seas.

I covered a crushed stone patio with landscape fabric to keep it clean. It works well, but I'm too lazy to roll it up when I want to sit on the patio.

A friend of mine has a beautiful zen garden.. she rakes the leaves daily, in the autumn, as a meditative practice... but when the weather gets worse, wet and cold, she spreads fruit netting over the gravel, and leaves it in place until she gets clear weather, then bundles up the leaves and transfers them into black plastic bags and takes them to the recycling centre to add to their garden waste bins. Her kids help. She says it's a great lesson in impermanence...!

Admittedly, her patch is not huge, but it's better than leaving the leaves to go black, soggy rain-sodden and rotting, on the gravel....

Amazon is your friend....

You can also examine use of bird/pond netting (to protect aquatic livestock from predatory birds, like herons and penguins....) which is quite strong. Also on Amazon.

I have small pebbles across my back yard and mostly use a small hose connection for my wet/dry vacuum. I blow the yard around individual bush and objects such as chairs/table legs, also in some instances use a 'wire' rake that won't gather pebbles but helps gather leaves and similar bits of trash. I've also used a hose nozzle that I can adjust to a fine but strong spray and that works equally well for the objects I've mentioned.

Clearing the yard well of weeds and other growth before placing pebbles over the yard area.

Once cleared and leveled to a point satisfactory you need to spray for weed and any other growth on all the yard you wish to cover. Then you need to cover with the type of fabric or other material that you can fasten well to the ground.

At this point you need to determine how much you will be covering and a range of 1/2 to an inch thick. The next project is to choose or devise a means of some form of edging, i.e. roll of plastic edging that you can insert into the ground ( laying the ground cover fabric over the top if that) and maybe use brick or other forms of edging you good design the layout to fit your yard 'areas' or a point up to grass or garden or the base of a tree which can be separated by brick, etc.

I have found a gravel and stone company, Southwest Boulder & Stone, southwestboulder.stone where I purchased the pebbles. They can deliver large amounts to your 'driveway' and you can then , with wheel barrow, spend a day back and fourth from front to back.

I have further suggestion and that is to use other stone, sizes and design, to give the appearance of a small stream around or through the various areas of the total yard.

You can call me (JayB. 949 854 6450 and leave msg and number if you want further conversation.