Keep 'em commin Herb. I have a powerpoint file of images that I have gotten from the sites you post. The images are of ideas I want to incorporate.

My eye is quickly getting refined and more sofisticated by scouring the web for pictures of real gardens and their treatments. I am glad I waited to put my garden in. I am noticing the differences between gardens within Japan and without. There are some substantial differences not least of which are the affects of age. Gardens outside of Japan "seem" to project a formulaic treatment whereas those within Japan seem more varied with some really outstanding and interesting details.

Jeepsters comments sparked a line of thought that i felt compelled to share. Hope im not hijacking your thread Herb. ;)

I just wonder if a substantial difference between Japanese gardens in Japan and outside of Japan is the degree of importance they hold for the homeowner. In Japan, where land is very limited, a garden of some degree whether it be a tsubo-niwa or even smaller, appears to be an indespensable aspect of the home environment. It is a window which takes the viewer out of the city and reaffirms their connection with nature. When living in a large city surrounded by so much artifice, this is not just a perk, but it becomes much more of a necessity. Just look at Central Park in New York. A garden becomes a means of staying sane in an overwhelmingly artifical environment. So when the garden becomes a true priority, as it often is in Japan, and not just a hobby or passtime as it often is in the U.S., a family is willing to invest more MONEY into it. I think that is the key factor which distinguishes the private Japanese gardens in Japan from the private Japanese gardens elsewhere. A willingness to pay for skilled gardeners, fence-builders, and carpenters. A willingness to invest in high quality stones and gravel, styled trees and the details that make a garden exceptional. The garden space becomes a priority and therefore becomes a legitimate expense. I will refrain from the American social commentary here regarding where our priorities generally lie... ;)

Just look at the garden in Herbs photos. It looks like it has the makings for a high quality garden... very nice stone and granite and quality craftsmanship, (though im not sure about the plant choices so far). What quality would the garden be on only a quarter of the budget? What quality would the garden be if instead of spending the money on skilled gardeners, they had the employees in the building voluntarily spend three or four weekends building the garden? We are a do-it-yourself culture here in the U.S. and we are often eager to sacrifice quality for cheap materials, inexpensive labor, and a superficial understanding. I think that you just cant build a successful Japanese garden using that template, and that is why many gardens outside of Japan fail to meet the bar.

-christian

Christian -

Of course not, & I'm very glad that you've joined in the thread.

There's a bit more information about the garden here - http://www.victoria-morioka.com/nitobe_garden.htm
and a google search discloses several others.

The stress on high quality in their gardens & the willingness of Japanese people to invest more money in them backs up what the JOJG keeps recommending. At the same time, I can't help thinking that costliness alone isn't enough, and that good taste can be achieved with the frugality of rustic simplicity?

Herb

I can't seem to articulate what I see as the differences because I don't know enough. What I mean is not about cost or overt display of beauty. Herb posted a site a few days ago that showed some everyday "common" Japanese gardens, or homeowner types. Just little tucked away places in side gardens and entries and such. They seemed to show a natural intrensic way. Here in the west we must follow a prescription because it does not flow naturally from our way, but in Japan it flows naturally as a creative legacy. maybe that is the difference, and it shows.

My goal is to see the natural Japanese way of creating these fine expressions of gardening and then just let it flow regardless if it does not meet the overt prescription that a western eye might think is important.

jeepster -

I think you've put your finger right on a very important factor.

I have in mind an example, though I'm not going to identify it, of a Japanese garden originally laid out by a Japanese designer and that was allowed to fall into disrepair. Later, it was renovated, and the renovator "corrected" part of it because the renovator believed, quite sincerely, that he was improving it by following the prescription for that sort of feature. The result was competent, but (in my opinion) the feature lost its natural, intrinsic character.

Herb

Ill have to agree, that the Japanese culture has a very well developed appreciation and sense of the natural esthetic, as you would probably expect from a culture steeped in the nature worshiping religion of Shintoism. Add to that the periods of isolation from the influence of other cultures and the generations of experimentation and refinement of this esthetic and its not hard to see why they are the masters.

I wasnt really trying to define your comments, Jeepster, they just inspired some thought in a different direction. And my contention wasnt meant to be the difinitive answer to the question, but perhaps just one aspect of it. Obviously money isnt the only thing it takes to create an successful Japanese garden, but i do think that when your garden becomes a true priority, as it seems to be in many Japanese homes, then the quality of the garden will begin to reflect that importance. It will be evident in the quality of materials, design and maintanence .

Of course, all of the money in the world wont guarantee a great Japanese garden, but it will purchase the materials that complete the effect down to the tiniest details. If you are creating another 'world' with a garden, then everything must be of that world down to the twine on the bamboo, or else the effect may be weakened or completely lost. Money will hire a carpenter with the skills necessary to achieve fine detail woodwork that the average homeowner can not accomplish. And money will hire and support knowledgeable Japanese gardeners who are skilled in the design and/or installation of a Japanese garden, who have learned from years of apprenticeship and years of practice. Im not trying to dissuade people from building their own Japanese gardens, but i think the quality of the gardens in Japan is on a higher level because they are mostly designed by hired professionals. Im thinking that if someone wants the same quality garden, then they would probably have better results if they hired a professional Japanese gardener. Id be willing to bet that is what the majority of Japanese people do.

-christian

...and the line between rustic simplicity and just old and cheap is wider than one may think. Those 'rustic' teahouses you may have seen actually cost a fortune to construct.

christian -

I take your point that there can be quite a difference between rustic simplicity and old and cheap. I'd say it was the difference between old, cheap and tasteless, and on the other hand, old and frugal but in good taste.

However, I start to feel uneasy when a 'rustic' teahouse costs a fortune to construct. It seems to me that when that happens, there's a parallel with the popularity (a good many years ago) of what was then called 'distressed' furniture. 'Distressed' meant that the furniture had been disfigured in some way - e.g. by being beaten with old bicycle chains - to make it look as if it had had many years of use - that it was time-worn and antique. It wasn't sold with any claim that it was old or antique, but it wasn't the genuine article. Might not the same be said of a very costly 'rustic' teahouse - that it isn't the real thing?

Herb

Well i guess we have to determine what is the criteria of the quality we call rustic simplicity. If it is simply evidence of age and patina, then it allows for a broader selection of materials. But i think it is not only the patina, but also the original quality of the thing beneath the patina which truly embodies the idea of rustic simplicity. A piece of yellow pine that has weathered will probably never achieve the same feel as a weathered piece of cedar. And a piece of composite wood (or plastic bamboo ;) is not even in the same category. Or it could even be compared to quality plants and the 'patina' which develops after years of attentive maintanence. Im trying not to use the 'word' here... :)

Regarding the teahouse, i think the 'simple' comes from natural design, and the 'rustic' comes from the styling after the hermit's hut, but im not sure where the frugal enters the equasion...

All i can say for the aged appearances on new furniture and new blue jeans is that they are feaux, and dont always withstand scrutiny.

I guess my whole point is that a Japanese garden is not the place to compromise on quality.

-christian

Christian -

You make persuasive points. At the same time I have to say that the JOJG's insistence on quality - which you seem just as keen on as does the JOJG - makes me feel uneasy, largely, I think, because 'quality' is a word that rather too often implies 'costly'.

To my mind, 'quality' in relation to many things should be thought of not so much as a matter of costliness, but as a matter of durability.

Herb

I don't have a script to JOJG so I don't know their context of "quality". In my mind quality would not necessarily equate directly to cost as in $$, but maybe it would correlate with effort, sincerity, muscle and elbow-grease, etc. Use of natural materials as opposed to plastics. I came across a lantern in a garden center made of a resin - to me it was ugly and insincere - like plastic flowers syuck in a windowbox.

There is no way I can build my tea house with the joinery of a master, but I can conceive of and build a quality structure using sound and competent tequniques and local materials.

I feel it's all about core quality that should not cost a fortune.

Considering what goes into them, I assure you the cost of traditional Japanese teahouses is not out of line. I think the attention to materials, material preparation, and construction quality and detail instills the spirit that some of these structures seem to hold!

That said, I could never afford even the materials for such a project. I believe a person not highly concerned with authenticity can pursue an attractive structure for their garden using alternative materials and techniques according to their budget.

I'm taking a deep breath here and hazarding a guess that in Japan a separate teahouse is something that the average Japanese can't afford and in any event doesn't have room for.

Can anybody tell us whether this is so?

From limited experience in Japan, and with Yasui-moku company in Kyoto that builds them, I gather this is true. Wealthy, well connected families, or those with very old homes may have formal tea houses. But many conduct traditional tea ceremony in their home or business without the dedicated house.

Those with more experience will hopefully offer more accurate information!

By example of carpentry, here is a closeup of one small joint before being tightened and shimmed.

Here is a link that might be useful:

That's certainly a beautifully fitted post joint, but I'm still inclined to think that insistence on quality can be overdone.

It isn't that I don't admire fine materials and fine workmanship - I do admire them. What really bothers me is that here in the west almost no householders are practitioners of the Tea Ceremony.

That makes me feel that no matter how fine the workmanship or materials of a tea house - if it has no other purpose than to look like a Japanese tea house, then it lacks the authenticity needed to make its presence legitimate. It becomes a mere ornament. It puts me in mind of a nouveau riche man who insists on having a big library in his house which he fills with beautifully bound books - which are there only for their appearance because he never reads them. Or somebody who imports a Rolls Royce, intending never to drive it.

I don't have room for a tea house complete with its own separate tea garden, but if I did, I'd certainly want a structure that resembled a tea house from the outside - but I'd want it to have some function that was useful to me. As for the quality of its construction, I'd be very much inclined to follow the principles Jeepster mentions in his May 31 post.

I hope this doesn't make me a Philistine.....

I am of the same mind. I am slowly collecting materials for a simple "tea arbor" that will serve as much as an ornament as a place to rest, enjoy the garden, read... oh, and drink tea, too!

I am still working on the library thing, 'though. :)

"...resembled a tea house from the outside - but I'd want it to have some function that was useful to me."

For me that function is a BBQ shack with the intimacy of a tea house but Missouri-ized. I have been surfing the web looking for tea house photos and ideas and it's starting to come together conceptually. In the true spirit of the tea house (an intimate nook, set aside from the world) for freinds and family to comune over food and libation. There will be a small grill, a long low table and floor seating, all screened in. I am trying to conceptualize the grill placed in the middle of the table (fondue style) for sharing of grilled veggies and flesh.

If we integrate the "J-garden" with our own culture we do not need to worry about authenticity - it will BE authentic in all other aspects because it will be "true".

Currently I am haveing trouble Missourizing the lantern and torrii. I do have a horse pasture off on side of my future garden so maybe the torrii can be a boundry since I need a gate there anyway.

Bacchus - There are lots of ranch gates that remind people of a torii. Some even have a shape like a Japanese roofed gate. Here are a few pictures -

Picture 1

I didn't mean to link to all those - I was deleting some of the less interesting - & pressed the wrong key.

I've seen some great ones in Wyoming.

I think part of it here in North America is that even those in the social class that can afford authentic details have periods where they don't want to appear too highfalutin. Conspicuous consumption announces that you are better off. Better off is a word away from better. Better is undemocratic.

It's a funny thing: a giant house and estate are OK, but a fancy garden feature may be too much.