I see no significant difference between your two irises. They certainly drive home the point some of us have been trying to make on other ID-related threads about how extremely difficult (or impossible) it is to achieve a positive ID through photos alone. There are just too many almost identical irises, as yours demonstrate, to make photo IDs reliable.

Your irises also demonstrate the necessity of evaluating and comparing more than just iris flowers. If you want to differentiate between plants having similar flowers, you need to look at ALL of the elements of the plant - leaf color, texture, veining, height, and width; stalk height, branching, bud count, and bud placement; bloom period; plant vigor; etc. Two seemingly identical flowers do NOT necessarily equal two identical plants!

Thank you for posting these. They beautifully illustrate the difficulties, dangers, and pitfalls of photo IDs.

Laurie

Do they branch identically? That can sometimes be a help. Sure do look like the same cultivar. Very nice.

Here are the AIS descriptions--

CANNONBALL

(Schreiner, R. 1994). Sdlg. W 902-2. TB 41" (104 cm) ML.
"S. red wine; F. deeper velvety red wine (RHS 59A); beards yellow; ruffled. Warrior King X T 1576-F: (Gypsy Caravan x Cayenne Pepper)., Schreiner 1994. HM 1996"

SULTANÂS PALACE

(SchreinerÂs, R. 1977). Sdlg. H 591-B. TB 34" (86 cm) M.
"Tailored rich maroon-red self; F. velvety and slightly ruffled; self beard. B 530-2: (S 799-2 x Glowing Tiara) X Spartan., Schreiner's 1977. "

Ok, I think I can be certain about the Sultan's Palace just because I got it about 1996 or 97, and I'm sure that it would take a few years before any iris gardener could build up enough quantity to part with. It is right about 33"-34" tall. I just got Cannonball last year, and this is its first year bloom. It is shorter than Sultan's Palace right now, but I would think that could very well change by next year. I'm impressed that it is blooming so nicely for 1st year. Might be easier to tell the dif by next year. I'm really 99% certain these are correct, at least the cannonball. I'm just really surprised at how very much alike they seem, but I've looked them up online, & most pictures look very similar. It is really my older iris that I feel less confident of. When I first started buying from the local iris society, they put iris in boxes & pics on the box of the iris. A few might have the id written on the leaf, but not all. I have felt less confident of the ones I got during that time after realizing that Beverly Sills isn't Beveryly. The last couple of years or so, each fan has been labeled. Reminds me, I just saw the sign where they are taking orders!

That's interesting. If Sultan's Palace is supposed to have a self beard (which I assume means the beard is supposed to be the same color as the rest of the bloom), then neither of your irises is SP. However, if you look at other pics of SP posted around the web, you'll find that few, if any, demonstrate a self beard. What does that mean? Does that mean that I don't understand the meaning of "self beard"? Does it mean that the registration description is incorrect? Does it mean that the iris Schreiner's registered as SP had a self beard in their fields but has a yellow-orange beard in everyone elses? Or does it mean that there are one or more imposters being widely grown as SP around the country and world?

Who knows?

Laurie

I was wondering the same thing about the beards. Anyone have a picture of a red with a self beard?

The only red I have that has an AIS description of "self beard" is Warrior King, but it's never bloomed so I don't have a picture.

I'll show you what my "Sultan's Palace" looks like. I really wonden if any of our Iris are true to name. I got mine from a dear lady that was in our Master Gardeners class but that still doesn't mean it's the true Sultan's Palace. Anyway, here my picture. I couldn't have told you what the beard color was, but from the picture it does look the same as the falls, or close to it.
Enjoy, Mona

I don't have SULTAN's PALACE, but Schreiner's (the originator) shows a picture in their 1986 catalog which is a complete self - beards and all. If both the AIS description and the hybridizer's picture indicate 'self' beards then I would have to say 'ngraham', since your picture shows gold beards you do NOT have SULTAN's PALACE.
Its a little more difficult to tell from Mona's picture if the beards are of a 'self' color. Since I have seen SP for sale in a number of Mart stores, I suspect that there are alot of bogus SP's in circulation out there.
Laetitia

Where's Carlos? He's our Schreiner's historian.

I've actually emailed Schreiner's directly about this confusion. If they respond, I'll post it here for all to read.

Laurie

Gee, looks like my Cranberry Ice (which last year I was told was not Cranberry Ice).

Shadow

No longer Cranberry Ice NOID.

I have moved 3 from NOID to named iris, but I have moved 14 from named to NOID. 8 of the 14 were Wal-mart iris. 4 were from commercial growers. 2 were ebay purchases. Some of these may still be right but I have my doubts. All of these are this bloom season. Lee Mincy

Doesn't it look like my WAR CHIEF, too?

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There are so many iris of that 'red' self color, I think ID's based on that color alone are impossible. More to do with bud count, season, growth habits and other factors which have nothing to do with that bright red color.
Laetitia

MShadow, that is a completely different iris from my Cranberry Ice - not that mine is a positive ID'd (for whatever that is worth). But my CI is a deep magenta toned iris.

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For what it is worth - I have three different red noids that are each slightly different in minute detail, but which I could not diffrentiate between if I wanted too. I have abandoned any hope of IDing them.

Mike

I thought I had posted asking this already, but is there a site where I can check the branching, bud count etc? I don't think I can accurately do this with Cannonball since this is its first bloom season, but maybe next year. The blooms don't seem to set quite the same, but I think I am going to move these side by side & see if location might affect them too.Sultan has a bit of shade, while cannonball is in full, dry sun.

Mike's Cranberry Iris is beautiful.

Since Schreiner's bred both of these iris, I would contact Schreiner's about the bud count and branching. Schreiner's and Cooley's include information on bud count and branching in their catalogs. I have wondered too if there isn't a central database for that information. I guess it's too variable for the AIS to include it in their descriptions.

I have Sultan's Palace, just today was assure by our local grower that it is true to form, and doesn't look like any of the photos posted. I'm sorry I can't post a photo today, but I can describe it : The falls are such a deep wine that they're almost black and are slightly ruffled; the standards are very tall and straight, loosely ruffled, lighter (Cab. Sauv.) in color; and, the beard is yellow-orange. I'll take a digital pic when it blooms to post.

Here is my "sultans palace" it bloomed today. beard is the same color until way back then it is yellow.

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