Hey Rick, everything in your list looks good! (How's that for help?!)

Actually, I can give a little input on the Tennessee Cutshort. It makes a very good shell bean, so there's no reason not to grow it for that purpose. However, we often let them grow to the shelly stage, and instead of shelling them, we simply string, snap and can them. Then we get shellie beans mixed with green beans. Tennessee Cutshort is now available through Sandhill Preservation Center.

From what I've read on Ma Williams, that bean will probably excel even more for shellies: shelled out of the pod. But I can't say about stringing, snapping and canning; like we do with Tennessee Cutshort. Happyday sent me some Ma Williams seed and I'm going to try them this year. Their seed is considerably larger than Tennessee Cutshort, even dry.

Your list of limas has both large and small seeded varieties. Do you have a preference? That alone could help you narrow things down.

I grow Penny Rile, which is a cream pea. The seed is not very large. It is absolutely delicious. I have seed for Black Crowder, which is a good one too, but I haven't grown it consistently for over a decade. Also I have a cowpea mix dubbed Zongozotla Pintitos. Zongozotla is the name of a Totonac Indian village in Puebla, Mexico; which is where this seed comes from. It too should be good. I have only had these in tamales, while living in Mexico. So at this point I can't compare with Penny Rile or others. All that to say, that whenever I talk about branching out with cowpeas, the wife gets nervous and tells me that I better keep her beloved Penny Riles!

George
Tahlequah, OK

Er, uh, I mean 'recommendation'. Maybe another cup of coffee : )

Yeah, I know the feeling, can't see the forest through the trees. Well, my first recommendation is to plow up any remaining lawn, because you've got Bean Fever. (lol)

"Carolina Red" & "Seiva" (white-seeded) are both small-seeded limas. I haven't tried the "Red" (yet), but have often grown "Seiva"... it is the most prolific lima I've grown, and is nearly fool-proof. Not my favorite for flavor, though; good for soups & succotash, not great eaten alone as butterbeans.

"King of the Garden" & "Christmas" are large-seeded limas, and I grew both when I lived in a warmer climate. "Christmas" is huge when harvested in the green shell; some as wide as a dollar coin. The cooked flavor & texture are potato-like. KOG was my favorite, and is still the standard against which I judge butterbeans. Harvested as shellies, the very fat beans have have a rich, honey-like flavor & a fine texture. They are easy to shell, very prolific, and freeze exceptionally well... freezing actually improves their tenderness.

All the varieties you list should do well in Virginia, but "Seiva" is adapted to your area, and would be very reliable... plus, you already have the seed. ;-) Your choice of lima, Rick, would depend upon how you plan to use them.

I grow common beans for shellies because the large-seeded limas are unreliable this far North. If I could grow KOG, I wouldn't need them... but I would have missed out on experiencing many other beans that also make good shellies.

"Chinese Red Noodle" is in a class by itself, since it is actually a pole cowpea (yardlong) rather than a snap bean. I grow them every year, and really like them... but they are not for everyone. If you enjoy Asian cooking, then I highly recommend them... "Chinese Red Noodle" is probably the best yardlong available commercially.

If you intend to save your own seed, remember that "Chinese Red Noodle" can cross with field peas, so avoid planting them adjacent to each other.

Of the other snap candidates, "Garafal Oro" may have been dropped commercially, or it would be my best recommendation. Its flavor is very distinctive, it has good disease resistance, and it is highly prolific. If you have your heart set on it, I have plenty of seed available for a SASE bubble mailer. "Emerite" is a fine bean, even better frozen quality than "Fortex"... but since they are both the same type (filet beans) I would only grow one or the other.

Can't help you with the wax. All the varieties I grow are unavailable commercially. I've been wanting to try the two you list, so if you grow one of them, please post your observations.

For shellies, as I've stated above, if you grow either of the large limas, you might not need a common bean as a shelly. "Ma Williams" is among my favorite shell beans, and I have shared it widely... but it is not available commercially. It has several aliases, however; one of them is "Goose", which is available from several sources. The "cranberry", "horticultural" and "borlotto" beans also make good shellies. There are numerous great heirlooms, many of them former commercial varieties that were dropped.

While I grow a lot of field peas, only one of them is sold commercially, "Pinkeye Purple Hull". There are many here who could better advise you on the merits of commercial varieties. There are a few good threads about cowpeas on this forum.

Hello George and Zeedman; good to hear from you guys!

George, thanks for the additional info regarding Tennessee Cutshort. I noticed you "can" them. How do you think theyll behave if frozen? We do quite a bit of canning as well, but I tend to like freezing beans. I think it preserves flavor and texture a little better than canning.

I like the sound of Penny Rile. Obviously, Ive never tried it but a wifes recommendation is worth its weight! It just might be my first attempt at a cowpea.

The Zongozotla Pintitos sound interesting as well. I love the provenance. This year Ill be growing the Cochiti pepper. It is from the Cochiti Pueblo, which is located NNW of Albuquerque, NM. The agricultural environment of the Pueblo has declined over the years, and it is becoming much more difficult to obtain seed for the crops they have grown for centuries. Ah, but thats a story for a different thread (and Forum lol). Anyway, if you grow the pintitos out, please let us know what you think.

Zeedman, thanks for sharing your knowledge as well.

Well, you certainly helped with the Lima decision. KoG sounds like exactly what Im looking for. It sounds delicious, plus, as I said before, we like to can/freeze as much produce as possible. That way, we enjoy it throughout the year.(Just had a nice pot of frozen Fortex the other day - delicious).

Ive read a lot of good things about Ma Williams and am leaning strongly towards trying it. However, I havent read anything about strings or ease of shelling. Can you comment on those aspects? I thought I might obtain seeds from Bill Best at SMAC but I see he doesnt have them listed this year. Ill send an e-mail to see if he can spare a few seeds or has an alternate source.

Regarding Pinkeye Purple Hull. Ive read a little about them and they sound interesting as well. Are they a vining type or are they a bush? Ill search for other threads here regarding cowpeas.

Lastly, I like what Ive read about Garafal Oro as well. I think I would like to try it this year. I appreciate your seed offer and may well take you up on it. I dont really have any bean seeds to offer, but I have lots of Pepper seeds! Anyway, if need be, I will send you a PM.

So, where do I stand? So far it looks like:

Lima - KoG
Cowpea - Penny Rile and/or Whipporwill
Shellie - Ma Williams and/or Tennessee Cutshort
Snap - Garafal Oro and/or Neckargold

Now that doesnt mean Im not going to try the others at some point, just not this year lol.

Again, thanks for responding guys. It is so much more valuable to me to get feedback from those who have "been there, done that". I know there are many variables when it comes to growing things, but the fact remains that someones experience with something far outweighs a commercial seed sellers hype. I truly appreciate everybody who takes the time to share their experiences.

Best Regards -- Rick

Tennessee Cutshort freezes just fine. I too like them better frozen (I like any bean better frozen). But we don't have room to freeze everything since we also freeze lots of meat and milk.

I believe Sandhill Preservation carries Ma Williams, under the alias of "Goose." Also, if Happyday shows up here, he might offer you some :)

The "Ma Williams/Goose" beans shell very easily, and because there are 5-8 very large beans in each pod, they add up quickly. Next to limas, they are some of my favorite shellies. I can't testify to the strings, because except for the first taste trial, I never used them as snaps... it would be a waste, IMO. There are many varieties much better suited for snaps, but few that are anywhere near as good for shellies. The ones I sent Happy did very well, and keep in mind, it was a bad year for us.

The "Pinkeye Purple Hull" cowpeas are a semi-vining bush. They don't need support, but they will sprawl a little. This sprawling habit is very common with cowpeas. I grew them last Summer, from seed sent to me by Jimster; but it was a poor season here for all warm-weather crops, so they didn't do as well as I would have liked. This variety is supposed to be pretty good green-shelled.

Well guys, I think it's official. This year's line-up is as follows:

King of the Garden
Tennessee Cutshort
Penny Rile
Garafal Oro (hopefully ;^P )
Goose

I know I said I could only add up to four without plowing, but I think I might be able to do five. Who needs 20 varieties each of tomatoes and peppers anyway? lol.

Also, I forgot to mention that thanks to a wonderful Christmas Present from Jim, I will be trying IWK (in a separate plot) this year. I really looking forward to seeing how it does here in Virginia.

Anyway, thanks again guys for your input - I really appreciate it. I'll try to keep ya'll posted as the season progresses.

Best wishes and have a great growing season -- Rick

Use IWK as a barrier crop between some of those that can cross. That's what I do with beans of other species.

George

Dear Sir: Please help me find some Seiva Pole Lima Bean seed.
Every where I have gone they are out or Crop Failure. I am 88 and have grown them for over 40 years, this might be the last season that I can garden. Can you please help me. Sincerely Pansy Dodson

Pansy, Monticello lists them.

I love the bean varieties from Sustainable Mountain Agriculture Center, KY, (about 40 miles south of Lexington, KY., in case that's close to your whereabouts).

Scroll down to the seed list in link below, and look at pics at this address:
http://www.heirlooms.org/beans/dorisc.html