Hi Greening, how are you? I didn't go to the swap this year and I missed seeing everyone. You have a small front yard to work with but you can look at it as an opportunity. I have a small yard too. I also like a lot of the same things you do..lavenders, salvias, roses, lupines, honeysuckles, four oclocks. I am not sure I have a design idea for you, but just a few thoughts...

Someone suggested to me that I might consider using all dwarf plants in a bed that was even smaller than your 16ft x 10 ft. That was like a lightbulb going off for me and I am still in the process of exploring that design goal. I did find a website called Tiny Treasures that have very small dwarf conifers that are often used in designing outdoor railroads. Someone pointed me in their direction and I have seen a couple of things. Link below. When I have time I was going to look for more sites like that. Weston in Hopkington does have an outdoor train set up, so maybe they sell plants to go with it? Only my concern with that idea for you is one of proportion. From the street the house with minatures in front of it, might not look quite right?

I have gardened in my front yard. Snow removal is something to keep in mind. Where are you going to shovel your snow? Also, I have lost a lot of plants along the strip closest to the street from salt/sand in the winter. Keeping it neat all the time so your neighbors are happy with you might influence your choices on which plants to choose. Long bloomers are great.

Have you thought about a rock garden? You could berm the soil somewhat. You might have enough sun. Do you have lavender growing and wintering over for you? I have clay and unless I raise the growing area, I sometimes lose them over the winter. It has been suggested to me that they are better off mounded. Again, this idea may present a proportion problem.

I am seeing window boxes on the railing of your porch, which you could fill with all kinds of summer/spring blooms and then evergreen plantings for winter interest. Vines around the porch railings. Maybe a rose garden surrounded by something neat like boxwood or lavender or Purple Tails Tuecrium. Two big pots of four oclocks on the porch for that evening fragrance.

Syringa 'Palibin' is a small lilac shrub with flowers and fragrance that a similar 'Miss Kim' blooms for me in that exposure. It is supposed to top off at 3-4ft, which still seems pretty large to me for that space, unless you are going to prune it smaller and it isn't evergreen. I am sure there are smaller shrubs than that if you are going to try to fit in shrubs. You could grow a lot of things in that location, but unless there is something evergreen, what will it look like in the winter?

Verticals...moonflower vine, MGs, Clematis....roses...looks like you will have a lot of opportunity to do that and could grow a few together to extend bloom, some would provide fragrance.

I was hoping one of the experts would respond to your post and perhaps they will soon. I would be interested in what they would recommend for you. Maybe they could solve the proportion dilemma.

:-)
pm2

Oops! Forgot the link. :-)

Here is a link that might be useful: Tiny Treasures Nursery

Hi Greening -

I highly recommend Gordon Hayward's book on front-yard gardens, titled The Welcoming Garden (or something very similar to that!).

I think that your beautiful house is a bit imposing! The 3 story facade, so close to the sidewalk, is a little dizzying with nothing near its height in view in the picture. It seems to me that a garden full of miniature plants might accentuate that, and that even a single tall, narrow deciduous tree on the left (as we are facing the house) might help to visually balance the mass of the steps and door on the right, while giving the high roofline something to relate to. I'm not sure if you'd be at all amenable to something like a Ginkgo biloba 'Magyar' - a narrow cultivar - that would provide some shade but not "shade out" other plants. A grouping of winterberry holly (great choice!), irregularly arranged around the ginkgo (or other tall narrow tree), with shorter shrubs towards the entrance, could form the backbone of a mixed bed that might take up the whole yard, including perennials, shrubs, and the trees. Then you could have your stepping stone path wend its way among the shrubs, giving access to everything but also providing an interesting stroll around the garden.

This sort of planting would also provide privacy on that great porch. I sure wish I had one of those! Hope you get lots of ideas here, I can't wait to read what others think, and to see what you decide to do. Getting rid of lawn has got to be the way to go, no matter what you decide. Have fun planning this!
DtD

Prairiemoon, I am doing well! I didn't spend as much time in the garden as I should have this past season, but I'll be making up for lost time. :-) I didn't make the last swap either, unfortunately-- spring 2007 or bust! *G*

Snow removal-- heavens, that's a good point. We certainly can't put it in the driveway-- it's so narrow a car barely fits in as it is. Well, perhaps if there are only evergreens in the back, the space in front will be available for snow because the perennials will be gone?

Window boxes are a definite yes... I'm going to get a porch swing this year too, and maybe even get around to replacing that solid porch side with spindles for a more open feeling.

You could grow a lot of things in that location, but unless there is something evergreen, what will it look like in the winter?

That's my concern exactly.

DtD, hello again as well! You are right, the house is quite tall for that small a front yard. Unfortunately, deciduous trees in the front yard aren't going to happen-- they aren't good for the roof and the roof needs all the help it can get. ;) However, there are lots of tall columnar conifers:

Picea abies 'Cupressina'
Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Columnaris'
Emerald Green arborvitae

Would any of those work in a similar fashion?

A grouping of winterberry holly (great choice!), irregularly arranged around the ginkgo (or other tall narrow tree), with shorter shrubs towards the entrance, could form the backbone of a mixed bed that might take up the whole yard, including perennials, shrubs, and the trees. Then you could have your stepping stone path wend its way among the shrubs, giving access to everything but also providing an interesting stroll around the garden.

That sounds absolutely lovely. How do you DO that? :-)

That sounds absolutely lovely. How do you DO that? :-)

By which I meant, of course, not how to do you plant shrubs, but how do you come up with good ideas like that, and describe them so I can see it too? This is exactly what I was hoping for.

greening,
I scanned this image from "Front Yard Gardens, Growing More Than Grass" by Liz Primeau and photographed by Andrew Leyerle, as I thought the picture demonstrated a good example of a larger imposing home with a small front yard that had successfully planted a city cottage garden. Note how important the deciduous tree on the right is to the overall design. I wonder if a tree were not hanging over your roof if you might be willing to rethink including it in your plan. This particular home owner moved her driveway to the back to extend the front garden. This garden has a northeast exposure and was planted with a mix of evergreen and deciduous shrubs with perennials.

DtD......

Thanks for helping with that proportion dilemma. I knew someone would come to the rescue. :-) I am a big fan of ginkgo trees and winterberry bushes too. How are the ginko trees as far as growing close to a street/sidwalk? I am remembering huge trees in front of similar 3 story houses and the tree roots had raised the cement. Just something to keep in mind. I see your idea dtd of the small leaves of the ginkgo creating less shade. You are good at this! :-)

As for your concern, Greening about the decidous tree in the front yard, could you consider something narrow and dwarf that would not top out above the roof? Something perhaps with spring flowers, fall color and possibly if you really do some searching, interesting bark or berries and fragrance too? [g] Plus you would have more leaves for compost. :-) A deciduous tree can really be a 4 season plant as well. Also you could still use evergreen shrubs if you wanted.

I do really love the columnar conifers, I am just trying to picture a design using them that would be in scale with your house. I am really not good at solving scale/proportion problems, but I am just thinking height and mass of the ginko are what solves the problem of scale and would the conifer do the same?

I can second that book by Gordon Hayward. I have taken it out of the library a couple of times.

Greening...I love your idea of getting a porch swing. How many movies have I watched the families on their front porch swings. [g] To Kill A Mockingbird was one. Your idea to replace the solid porch side with spindles sounds perfect to me. Once you get your design questions firmed up and are getting around to choosing plants..another book I have out from the library right now, is Plants for Small Spaces by Stephanie Donaldson. For windowboxes, have you seen P.Allen Smith's book on windowboxes? One of my favorites on that subject.

What a fun project, greening. I hope you will take lots of photos before, during and after and post them. I would love to see them!

Yes, Spring Swap 2007, I am keeping my fingers crossed. :-)

pm2

Hi Greening,

Reading your post reminded me of a B&B in Cambridge that we stayed in when we were attending our daughter's MIT graduation. I was struck at the time (this was late May) at how jam-packed (but gorgeous!) the tiny little front yard was, a riot of bloom from poppies, iris, etc. The house is not dissimilar to yours although I think the front yard may be slightly deeper (but it's still SMALL!) Sadly, their website has no "in bloom" pictures that include the house, but if you're in the Boston-Cambridge area, you might take a swing by the place to see what they had to work with in terms of space (and how a basically perennially-based garden looks in the winter months). I was really struck at the time by how much they'd managed to get into such a small space, and how well the plants worked together (wish I could remember more than the poppies, some beautiful creeping groundcovers between the stones of the little, winding stone pathway, and I think stands of magnificent iris (am I allowed to post a link to a commercial site like a B&B? I'm not sure so I won't but I'll be glad to email it to you). It was the kind of garden that at first blush looked random, just jam-packed with color, but on closer inspection, was clearly organized. A white picket fence along the sidewalk was the backdrop for the blaze of poppies (which actually topped out above it if I recall).

You could have a lot of fun with that space! ;)

ctlady, I'd love to see the B&B. Can you post the name? I can probably find it with Google and that way you won't have to post a commercial link.

Sure -- it's the Morrison House B&B on Morrison Avenue in Somerville (I thought it was Cambridge, but close enough!) I can't remember which of the two owners was the gardener (maybe both?) but the yard was just a really striking splash of color on the street. Another spot that has done amazing things with tiny space -- again, appearing random but definitely NOT! -- is the Flower House in Edinburgh, Scotland (you can google them as well). We had the misfortune to be there in November, when nothing was in bloom, but the skeleton of the amazing "wee" garden was apparent even then. Totally different structure (four-story 19th century stone row house) but a wonderfully European use of a small space (Of course, that temperate Scottish climate helps!)

I lack the serious design experience to be much use that way, but I do have a plant suggestion. Few Americans really grasp how effective some of the Hypericums are. They bloom for a good part of the summer (or that's my impression, anyway), and if you find the right ones they aren't at all difficult to grow (& no, I'm not talking about "St. John's wort", which is a Hypericum, but more weedy perennial instead of shrubby, like what I have in mind).

Here's a picture of what I'm thinking of. The flowers are bright yellow, but not huge, and the look is both cheery and quite "cottagey". I suspect it will go well with the house, and it certainly will go wonderfully with four-o-clocks! It's Hypericum frondosum "Sunburst".

Hello, all.
I have to say that I am really in line with DtD and Katy. I would love to see a deciduous tree ground the house and balance the mass and door. But, I am proposing you consider the mostly evergreen Magnolia virginiana 'Milton' (hardiest in the north apparently) -- grows to about 30' I think in our climate, great flowers in Spring, beautiful silvery underside and dark green topped leaves year-round, pretty red fruits in the fall, and not so dense that it would shade out other plants I think? That said, I have no firsthand experience with this plant, so I'd ask the experts! Then, as DtD suggested, shrubs and perennials and wandering paths throughout.

I've been keeping mum here, due to my complete lack of design sense, lol, but I have been reading with interest (trying to learn), and just wanted to add one thing.

Greening, if you do decide to go ahead and plant a tree in the front yard, please consider how it may affect your neighbors to your right (left of the photo). You said the sun comes in from the right of the photo, which means the tree would shade that neighbor's yard. Do they garden? Would a tree here affect them?

I only ask because I feel when you live (and garden) in an area where you live so close to a neighbor, everything you do can affect them (and what they do affects you). Even where I live, where houses are farther apart, it happens.

My neighbor has taken down about four trees in the past three years, leaving my shady woodland area in more than half day sun, with hot afternoon sun to boot. I've had to make some adjustments, but luckily my yard is big enough that I can adjust. Your neighbor might not have that flexibility with a smaller yard.

Just something to consider. I'm looking forward to your plan of action. It has been fun to read here and see some of the photos and ideas.

Good luck!
:)
Dee

You're getting lots of great ideas, here, Greening, this is my favorite kind of thread - gets us all thinking.

Katy, that's a really nice photo of the front garden - do you recommend the book? (I'm such a sucker - finally had to buy a new bookcase just for garden books, 6 feet tall no less.) I'd have placed the tree to the right, further from the path to the door, but maybe it works better this way, the entry is recessed on that house ... I wonder.

Greening, I get your point about not wanting trees overhanging the roof - that's smart. Actually, there's a very nice but very expensive guy in my front yard right now, removing a tulip tree that was just too close to the house. I'd only "tucked it in for a few weeks" while we were having construction done a few years ago, suddenly it was taller than the house; a costly bit of procrastination on my part.

Back to your yard: Something that is more than half the height of the house - lets say to middle of the second story windows when full-grown - would work just as well as anything taller, don't you think? The idea would just be to give the eye an intermediate object, a "frame of reference" for the tall house.

Mayalena, I *love* magnolia virginiana - have several that were bought as twigs from the local conservation district years ago. Mine are not compact, though, and I expect that when they're 30' tall they'll be just as wide. Is this variety more columnar?

DtD

Hello!

What a fun project/thread! I don't have much design sense, either, but just a thought...

If a tree for vertical interest doesn't interest you, what about a pretty obelisk or other trellis-type structure? You could grow vining flowers in season, and the structure itself would provide some "bones" in the winter... I've seen many made out of gorgeous woods, or wrought iron, or painted... you get the idea. My neighbor has a really beautiful one that's a narrow trellis with a tiny bench underneath - a lovely place to sit and admire your cottage-garden-to-be!

nightingalemom :o)

ctlady, I found both the Morrison House B&B and The Flower House online. Very cute front gardens! That's exactly the look I'm going to try for... now why don't they have planting diagrams on their websites? ;-) I've also "ordered" the two books from the library system and should get them this coming week.

mayalena-- Hello again! Good to see the familiar names. I adore magnolias and would love someday to have room for one... but the front "yard" on this house is only 10' deep. The tree wouldn't be in the yard, it would BE the yard. *G*

So, again, no trees are going in the front yard... I think this is called a "design challenge". ;-) Let me just indulge for a second, though, and link to this picture of a Weeping European Beech, which is what I would have several of on my dream property...

Back to the present, something like a fountaining shrub is a possibility. Maybe serviceberry? It would have to top out at about 8' without pruning-- I don't want to leave a monster for the next owners. Or how about a small weeping tree? The problem is that those tend to become large weeping trees.

nightingalemom-- I love the idea of a bench-- I'm seeing one made of stone, which would give people something else to look at in winter...

DiggerDee-- a very good point about the very close neighbors. Fortunately, that's just driveway to the left of us (as you look at the picture), so nothing I plan to plan should affect them. In fact, I hope they'll enjoy my plantings!

Here's a picture I did up with a picture of a serviceberry shrub I found online:

Opinions? Do people think it's enough of a balancing effect to make it worth all the flower space I'd be giving up? I calculate all of this in terms of how many roses I could have fit in there... *g*

Two thoughts: one, about the serviceberry. We have one "wild" (meaning no one planted it, I'm sure) in our meadow, and last year planted another in another area of the meadow. Both are tree forms, not shrubs, but I would not use them as a specimen plant (as the only large plant -- and thus focal point -- in a small yard, for instance). The birds adore serviceberries (so named, I'm told, because they bloom at the same time as the soil warms enough for gravediggers to resume their work in New England!) but the blossoms are very tiny and quickly gone, and they seem to have a tendency toward a somewhat ratty look as the season progresses. Maybe there are better cultivars out there -- I just know of our own experience, and while I love having it down by the barn, and the birds (goldfinches especially) adore it, I wouldn't put one in a prominent spot near the house. Maybe others have had better experiences? What about some of the interesting smaller crabapple varieties (or even a dwarf crabapple) - gorgeous bloom, berries/apples and fall color.

And if you're thinking of adding a picket fence, don't forget about rambler roses -- you'll have your roses and a front yard full of heavenly scent, and you can free up precious real estate in the yard for other things. There was a house near my old house with a miniscule front yard, white picket fence (probably only five feet between the fence and the house). It was a continually evolving display along that fence, from masses of white crocuses in spring to climbing roses (also white) in summer. I myself love red rambling roses and would have covered the fence with those, but these folks were into white! All planted in what couldn't have been more than an 8-inch strip of soil between the fence and the sidewalk ;)

"Servceberry" is in the genus Amelanchier, although I forget the exact species. If you explore that genus you'll learn that some are trees and some are tallish shrubs. Some have nice fall foliage as well as the brief flowers and the June fruit which the birds devour. (I believe they're supposed to be good eating, if you can get to them before the birds do.)

That genus is in the rose family, which probably explains the propensity to rattiness. If I surmise correctly they're probably more prone to diseases than many plants (a somewhat common feature of the family). Others you might consider besides crabapples include flowering plums & cherries (some of which are small and stay that way). Even pie cherries are often dwarfed and so should be considered if you're into that idea.

Redbuds & witch hazels would probably work, too.

As to weeping, look to japanese maples. Many of the weeping cultivars never get taller than the stake they're tied to.

Rambler roses? A serious labor of love! If you ask over at the antique rose forum you'll learn about the price paid in blood (literally) by those that love them. Try climbers instead unless you're really devoted to the look a blooming rambler provides (which admittedly is quite special for the few weeks it's there).

Another small shrub to consider (along with the Hypericum I mentioned a few days ago) is Fothergilla!

LOVELY!

Again, taking into account my deficiencies in garden design, my gut feeling about the serviceberry in the yard is that it seems too... wide. It seems like it takes over the whole stretch of the front yard, leaving less room for other plants. It also seems, at least from the angle of the photo, to not only hide the beautiful front porch, instead of enhancing it, but also would block your view of the street while sitting here with a glass of wine on a lovely summer evening. It's hard to watch the world go by with a tree in the way, lol! Even though my favorite trees are those with wide canopies, I'd like to see something narrower in this spot.

And if you are going to go with the picket fence, which I love, I think you've definitely got to have an arbor over the sidewalk on which to grow some climbing roses and clematis.

That European beech is gorgeous. Oh, for acres and acres of property!...

:)
Dee

Hi Greening. Glad you remember me:).

The amelanchier in your photo is so pretty -- but I have heard that it is a very buggy, insect prone tree that is best viewed at a distance. In my deciduous tree ID class, they suggested putting them at the far end of the yard, not next to the house.

So, I'm going to try to sell you on Magnolia virgiana 'Milton' again instead.... It is an underused native, more likely to reach 10 x 10 in our climate, not 30 x 30, as this is the northern end of its range. Flowers are gorgeous and scented. Leaves are semi-evergreen, dark and shiny on top and pale, pale green, almost white below -- giving it a nice sparkly effect in the wind. Fruit persists into winter, and bark is reasonably pretty, smoothish and gray. Overall, a nice habit and good winter bones. Certainly isn't as floriferous as your amelanchier, but might be more pleasant up close and more interesting year round!

If you are looking for a more typical small flowering tree/large shrub, you could consider a cornus kousa? Or cornus florida? But everybody has those.... :)

My concern with fountainy shrubs is that they tend to look so messy when they lose their leaves, IMHO. Also, their suckering tendency means they get wider and wider at the base -- whereas a small tree can be maintained as 1 or 2 or 3 trunks, so other plants/bulbs/etc. can be tucked in beneath. But, if you are going with a fountainy shrub, have you thought about Kolkwitzia or Philadelphus?

Then, there is always Hamamelis...not fountainy, but a fabulous shrub, IMO, tho you'd have to check sizes on various cultivars. As always, my knowledge comes out of books, not the real world, so it's worth what you've paid for it....

Good luck,
ML

Greening -

Your comment " . . . the house is quite tall for that small a front yard. Unfortunately, deciduous trees in the front yard aren't going to happen-- they aren't good for the roof and the roof needs all the help it can get" has been percolating around in my head for about a month now, and I've finally found time to respond.

I agree with Mayalena, KT, and Paririemoon2 that you should at least consider a deciduous tree, since I think without something to tie the tall house to the lower level garden, you'll be unhappy because there won't be enough of a transition or connection between the garden and the house. Look for varieties that are labeled as columnar or fastigiate or narrowly weeping. I think a tree with a trunk and the branches and foliage up above will give you more planting room than a large shrub like a Hamamelis (witchhazel) or a Philadelphus (mockorange) which is about as wide as it is tall or even than a columnar evergreen which typically has branches down to the ground. I noticed in glancing through the website below that they include at least some columnar trees, but probably most major online woodies nurseries have a search function that will let you search for columnar, fastigiate or fastigiata.

Forest Farm nursery (forestfarm.com) has a category of columnar plants you can click on
http://www.forestfarm.com/search/route.asp?indexkey=2C&x=72&y=12
that lists 37 genuses that they carry with columnar plants.
Another resource with a list of columnar trees in the book Dirr's Hardy Trees and Shrubs, probably in your local library or bookstore. On pg 450 he lists about 2 dozen varieties of columnar and fastigiate trees.

I think somewhere I've seen a reference to a columnar Stewartia, which might fit the bill perfectly. Stewartias in general have flowers, gorgeous fall colors, and in winter peeling, multicolored bark, so you'd have multiseason interest and get the most bang for your buck (space.)

I think you mentioned planning to replace the solid front of the porch with balisters (sp?) and a rail. You could also add a trellis or even just netting with clematis/honeysuckle, etc. as using the vertical space will add to how much you can plant. Clematis in particular looks quite at home in a cottage garden and would like the coolness to the roots that shade from the porch would provide. I've also done some reading about folks who grow clematis through shrubs and small trees to add longer season interest. I haven't yet seen anyone who has grown one through a rhodie, but that might be a possibility to give you some winter green. At one time there was a thread in the shrubs forum here on growing clematis through shrubs, but it may have disappeared by now. Regardless, you need to match growth rate and ultimate size of the tree or shrub with the clematis.

A couple of final thoughts - since you've got such a small space and you'll presumably want to be planting it intensely to fit in as much as possible, take the time to really work on your soil before you plant, turning in lots of organic matter like compost or well-rotted manure (which shouldn't smell) so that your plants thrive. Also, if you are visual, to help with your planning, take the photo of your house and do overlays on transparencies or tracing paper to help plan your space, even just cutting out silouettes of plants in proportion to your house and moving them around to see what looks right to you (or maybe you can do it all on the computer.)

Hope I've helped some.

Babs

Here is a link that might be useful: smallplants.com

Babs, there will definitely be vines! I have two kinds of native honeysuckle already, and of course morning glories (although they do tend to take over sometimes, and I can never bear to cut them back), and I'm trying to decide what color of climbing rose I want... :)

Hi Greening,
Just saw your post for the first time. I'm one that agrees with you about a large tree, but an idea did cross my mind.
How about a small Japanese maple tree? Now, they can get huge, but I have a neigbor down the street who has had one in for years and it is not much taller than me, which makes it about 4 feet tall. not too wide either and it has beautiful color in the fall.

A picket fence full of morning glories would be beautiful as well.

Hope to see you at the spring swap and I'll have plenty of MG, 4 o'clocks that are really strongly scented, lupins, alyssum and I'm trying those sweet peas again for you to have plenty of.

Fran

Fran, your seedlings will be a lifesaver. I haven't been able to get a thing started from seed for this season. I had a bunch of lovely rooted rosemary cuttings but it turns out that when you forget to water plants, they die... who knew. (This is why I don't keep houseplants!) Last year your four o'clocks and alyssum carried the garden through the entire season. I had my roses underplanted with the alyssum and it looked lovely, and the four o'clocks became one of my favorite flowers. :-)

Greening,
Glad to hear those seedlings will be a lifesaver for you, because my yard will no doupt look like it did last year with seedlings to give away at the swap and another swapper will be bringing just as many seedlings, different varieties than I have. Will post info on the swap starting next month.

Another idea I just thought of to help out that front yard.

Since you aren't sure what to plant and what to use, how about trying different things in pots this year and see how they look and grow? Granted they will no doupt grow somewhat smaller in pots than if they where in the ground, but you will get an idea of what the plants look like and if you like the looks of them in the yard.

You can get very cheap pots at Walmart now. I'm not a fan of shopping there, believe me, but at the same time I have to watch the wallet. My purchases with them are very few, but when it comes to plastic pots and miracle grow potting mix, I don't have much choice. Prices of the pots from Walmart that include a saucer, which I never use outside are.

8 inch $.88
10 inch $1.97
12 inch $2.97
15 inch $4.97

I had tons of annuals growing in the 8, 10 and 12 inch pots last summer. Made it easier to group them together for watering as I needed so much help last spring and summer, before and after the back surgery.
Anyway, the plants did really great that way and was able to move them around the yard to make things look different, fill in empty spots and plan to do it again this year. I even put all my herbs in pots as the perennials never seem to do well in the ground but take off in an 8 inch pot.

I had the following in pots all summer and fall,
coleus, tomatoes, 4 o'clocks, dwarf snapdragons, dwarf dahlias, gazania, annual viola, easter egg plant, california poppies and they bloomed all summer, zinnias, toadflax, morning glory, balsam impatiens, alyssum, peppers, all my herbs.

Just a thought but with plants in pots, you get to try many more this year and then determine which ones you want to keep for next year and which ones just won't work.

Fran

Fran, I do sort of the same thing, but without pots. I move plants around willy-nilly, midseason, whenever, until they end up someplace they fit. I'm sure they don't grow as optimally as they could, but it's less work than pots (for me), especially as I never remember to water anything. *G*