Hi Mitch!

Welcome back. I was wondering where you'd been. : )

I think that Wolflover (Dawna) lives in Garvin County, having moved there from Murray County a couple of years ago, so I am sure she'll be able to tell you about gardening in that area.

I'm just a couple of counties south of you, in Love County, so our weather conditions are very similar, although I'm at a significantly lower elevation and probably have lower nighttime temps.

In Love County, our average last freeze is about March 27 and our average first hard freeze is about Nov. 11 or so. So, in Garvin County, your average last freeze probably would be just about a week later that that and your average first fall freeze about a week earlier than ours. Both our counties theoretically average around 38" of rain a year although, in reality, we haven't made the average very often in the last decade. We only had 22" of rain last year and y'all had 32", but the drought has moved your way, so 2009 could be very challenging.

Do you have clay soil there? If I had to choose between clay or sandy soil, I'd choose clay since it holds nutrients and water better. Actually, I'd choose sandy loam, but down here in southern OK, our sandy loam is high on the sand and doesn't have much loam, so it is more like sugar sand. Thus, clay is better.

Dawn

Congrats, Mitch, on your new home and garden! I live in OKC proper (about 5 miles from downtown), and just have to make do with my gardening. I have about 100' x 50' in the backyard and much smaller front yard (my lots are in a triangular shape with the smallest part being in the front, a sunnier spot. So, I do a lot of dry shade gardening.

Consequently, I do not have enough sun to grow but a few veggies, and not very successfully at that. I do grow a few herbs and tomatoes. The tomatoes are grown primarily to host the sphinx moths (manduca sexta and manduca quinquemaculata). These moths are very important to gardeners, but hated by most. They are, however, the only lepidoptera that can pollinate the deep-throated flowers, like datura, moonflower, nicotiana, etc., so they are very much necessary in the garden. A lot of gardeners grow tomatoes they really don't eat and move the caterpillars to them when they find them, so as not to destroy them.

They are also commonly referred to as "hummingbird moths" because they resemble hummingbirds in flight - they hover over flowers just like the hummers do.

Dawn, I keep trying to find a place that sells "coarse sand", but haven't located one yet. They all say that it is either fine or what is referred to as "sandbox sand", which is very fine grain. I would like to have the coarse sand to aid drainage in my beds.

Susan

Thank you both - good to know those dates also - frost was never a worry back in Texas... I have tomatoes and peppers started in all the windows this week.. so they will be up and growing good soon! I will check up on that memeber -

Our soil is nice redish clay sand mix, very rich from what I hear - they used to grow almost all the broom corn in the US in this one county before the market fell out on it.

So I am here having fun - cannot wait for SPRING!

Mitch

Susan,

For coarse sand, I think you have to ask for mason's sand? You might have better luck finding it at a stone company that might sell some sort of very coarse sand or decomposed granite or something similar?

But, before adding sand, ask Randy what he thinks. I wonder if the Turface product he uses could be added to your soil to facilitate drainage? For some reason the term Turface Imperial is in my head and I don't know why, except maybe I saw it someplace? I think Randy used Turface MVP, but there are several different Turface products.

And, I always add compost, manure, pine bark fines, etc. to improve my clay-based soil. So, do materials like that not help your soil? What I mean is, does more organic material just make your soil hold too much moisture?

At our house, because I have yucky red clay, I have to be very careful about adding sand (I did add some sand at the same time I added lots of compost and shredded leaves) because, if you add sand to red clay, you get something that resembles adobe. LOL

Mitch,

Does your soil have much organic content? I have red clayey-sandy soil in my back yard and it is pretty fertile, but still it dries out way too fast except in the raised bed areas where I added tons of compost, manure and chopped/shredded leaves. Still, the clayey-sandy back yard is better than the rest of the place which is only clay.

In Texas, where I lived/gardened in zone 8, frost was not a huge concern either. Here, though, it is. It is not uncommon to have a month or more of perfect spring weather followed by a brutal cold spell in the spring.

Don't let a whole host of brilliantly gorgeous, warm, sunny days fool you either. I don't care if it is 80 degrees every single day in February and March, you'll still have a late, killing freeze in late March to early April about 9 years out of 10. So, you have to be prepared to cover your plants occasionally overnight until at least early May.

Some years, I have my tomatoes in the ground and 2' to 3' tall and then along comes a very wicked, very late cold spell, sometimes bringing ice or snow. If you can't take heroic measures to cover your tomatoes, don't set them out early because they won't survive.

Also, in Texas, I always planted my peppers at about the same time I set out my tomatoes and that was fine. Both the tomatoes and peppers thrived and produced. Here, though, I wait 2 to 4 weeks later to set out the peppers because they do not tolerate the occasional cold night as well as the tomatoes do, and the nights can stay cold here pretty late. In 2002, we had nighttime temps in the 40s here in Love County until early June. Last year we had a late freeze on about May 2nd or 3rd. It was horrible, and was immediately followed by severely windy, hot weather in the 90s. You know, tomato plants just love going from the 30s to the 90s in the space of a couple of days.

Although the conditions in Texas and Oklahoma are very similar, the colder springs means we have to plant our warm season veggies a little later here, and I still tend to plant tomatoes way too early because I want to get maximum fruit set before the summer heat arrives and shuts down production. It is a very delicate balancing act to plant early and keep the plants protected.

Dawn

Dawn -

I have no idea on content - it was lawn for the last 50 some years but I have good stuff from the local cattle barns (aged two years at least!!! ) and I picked up all the leaves I could find and good wheat hay bales all to mix in slow and easy.. I hope.

So when do you set out maters and squash? OSU told me second week of April is the date they always tell folks from Garvin - about rigt?

Mitch,

Do you want to know when I am supposed to set out my tomatoes, or when I actually do it? Because, with me, the two dates are not even close most years.

In Love County, our average last frost date is (theoretically) March 27th. So, in a good year when March is warm (nights no colder than the mid- to upper-40s) and I am feeling adventurous, I set them out beginning around March 10th. Of course, I have to be prepared to cover them if cold weather, sleet or snow arrives late (usually around Easter). In a late, cold spring, I might not start setting them out until late March or early April. Our first couple of years here, I tried to play it safe and set them out from mid- to late-April, but then I didn't have great production because the heat arrived early. So, in my book, early is better.....but only because (1) I raise my own plants from seed, so always have plenty of back-up plants in case mine freeze, and (2) I am willing to cover up the plants nightly as needed.

If I wasn't willing to take the risk of having the plants freeze out, and if I wasn't willing to cover/uncover them as cold weather comes and goes, I probably wouldn't set them out prior to April 10th. And, the soil in my raised beds heats up a little earlier than the soil at grade level, so that helps too.

With squash, I don't get in any big hurry. Anytime in April is fine, and I tend to let the soil temperature be my guide. So, mid- to late-April is fine for squash, and I put out winter squash/pumpkins later than summer squash.

And, my early tomatoes go into pots anytime from the last 10 days of Feb. to the first couple of weeks of March. I buy Better Bush and whatever else the stores have in Texas in 6" pots as soon as they arrive. Most years they arrive around mid-Feb. but last year I didn't see them until about 3 weeks later than that, I think. If I buy large, sturdy plants that have a main stem as big as my little finger, transplant them into pots, leave them on the warm concrete patio just outside the barn, and carry them inside on cold nights, I usually have my first ripe fruit in mid- to late-April, and it usually is from a Better Bush plant. Is the flavor incredible? Not especially, because tomatoes grown in cooler temperatures just aren't as tasty. However, it still beats the grocery store tomatoes by a mile. I usually don't get my first ripe tomato from in-ground plants until the last week in May, but (because I plant so early) that's still about a month earlier than most of my neighbors will get a ripe tomato from plants set out at the "right" time.

With tomatoes, I am all about pushing the limits to get early production and, as an experienced gardener in this climate, you can understand why. Once the real heat arrives, tomato fruit set is severely impeded, so it really does pay to take a certain amount of risk.

After last year's really, really late last freeze, I'm hoping the pendulum will swing back in the opposite direction and we'll have an early last freeze this year. Of course, there are no guarantees. And, don't forget, I'm at a really low elevation--the Red River is only about 1/2 mile west of me--so I will have a late freeze at my house when houses on higher ground a mile away won't have one. You have to learn what your microclimate is like, and work with it, too.

We are quickly eating our way through the bags of dehydrated garden tomatoes and I think they'll be "all gone" soon. Next year, I need to dehydrate 10 times as many as I did this year. This year, I have shown remarkably little restraint....once I open a zip-lock bag, I eat those little dehydrated cherry tomatoes by the handful.

Dawn

Dawn - You are so full of information - I have to have my tomatoes make it - I grow from seed but I don't grow out many more then what I reallllllly need (or think I do at least!)
THANK YOU!!
Mitch

Mitch,

You're welcome. It took me a while to adjust to the cooler nights and cold springs here, but really, it is a terific place to garden once you're used to all the spring weather's ups and downs. And, you know, you're not too far away from me. So, if you get hit by a late freeze after your plants are in the ground and disaster ensues, send me an SOS.....I'll likely have back-up plants sitting on the patio saying "Put me in, coach....I'm ready to play!" LOL

Dawn

Thank you Dawn - one other q in the Dallas area we always had a spring and fall big Plant Swap - do they have those here in OK on GW? I saw some old postings of one but it did not give a lot of details on much about plans for this year. I dont trade much but I love to go and visit and meet folks (adding faces to the names!)