My goodness!!! Just how big is your garden Dawn?

I asked this before, but is there a garden club in either of our counties Dawn?

I feel like I need to be in a class or something -- I havent even thought about planting -- I just got the Guerneys catalog yesterday . . .

Melissia

Melissia,

My garden is endless. I have several gardens scattered around the place.

The main veggie garden is probably about 60' x 80' but I haven't ever really measured it. It started out as 30' x 30' the first year and just kept getting a little larger every year. Then, there's the "overflow" area between the veggie garden and the guinea coop and the chicken coop. It is about 30' x 60', but partially shaded, so I can only plant stuff there that does well in partial shade. Then there's the other overflow bed, which I actually left fallow last year 'cause it stayed too wet. It is about 8' wide by about 60' long. I normally use it for pumpkins and winter squash....and sometimes a few "extra" tomato plants sneak in there too!

After that, it is all dependent on how much "pasture" I decide to till up and plant. Sometimes I till up a patch on the west side of the barn/garage and grow stuff there...it is about 10' wide x 20' long. The soil isn't all that great there, but okra, black-eyed peas, sunflowers and zinnias do well in that particular spot. I had a pepper bed last year on the east side of the garage, about 4' by 20'. I also squeeze in pretty veggies like peppers, eggplants, chard, etc. into the mixed tree/shrub/perennial beds that are on all four sides of the house. Some years I plant ornamental and edible peppers as a "ground cover" in the five small rose beds.

This year, I really, really want to create a new place to plant corn, sunflowers, winter squash and pumpkins. It is going to be on the north side of the backyard and the fenced-in dog run, on a sunny slope between the backyard and the forest. Depending on who wins the big battle....the big tiller and DH and I OR the stubborn clayey-sandy soil that is covered in bermuda grass, I'd like this bed to be about 20' x 40'. I really need to get busy on this bed, 'cause all the beans, tomatoes, peppers and herbs are taking over more and more of the "corn patch" every year, so it deserves a place of its' own.

Then there's the containers. Anything I cannot squeeze into some piece of tilled-up ground somewhere, I put in containers that I have accumulated over the years. And, this year, I have 100 10-gallon grow bags I intend to use for peppers and some of the dwarf tomatoes.

So, it sounds like all the weeding would make me crazy, right? Nope. I am religious about mulching everything. It is the only way to preserve my sanity. Even with heavy mulching, sometimes the weeds and grass invade the overflow beds, but not the main garden!

I just love growing stuff. Of course, by late June or early July, every garden bed is an absolute jungle! It is, still, controlled chaos, or at least mostly controlled.
What you have to understand about my garden beds is that there is pretty much no bare soil. For example, I might have a 4' wide x 30' long raised bed. In that bed, a row of tomatoes runs down the middle, one tomato plant every 30" to 36". As a "border" along the boards that contain the raised bed, I'll have a solid row of onions, planted six inches apart. Between the tomatoes and the onions, I'll have a mixture of herbs/flowers like basil, borage, marigolds, salvia, parsley, etc. After the onions come out, the basil and parsley tend to spread into their space. If tomato plants become diseased, I'll yank them out and replace them with another tomato plant....I ALWAYS have a few replacements cooling their heels in a container so I can pop them into the ground as needed.

Whenever a given crop matures, like beans, for example, I remove all the old plants and put something else there. I do a lot of intercropping....planting several things in one bed. As the earlier stuff comes out, the later stuff spreads and fills its' space.

This year I am doing to try growing watermelons under my fruit trees. I HATE mowing underneath the fruit trees, so why not till up the soil, plant watermelons, mulch heavily, and try growing the melons under the fruit trees? Gardening is such an adventure.

And, there is a rose gardening club, I think, in Love County but I've never been to a meeting. During the growing season, it is all I can do just to take care of everything outside, make sure all the animals are fed, and keep caught up on cooking, laundry and house-cleaning. I manage it all pretty well, although harvest time can get pretty crazy.

Your county probably has a garden club of some sort. You could check with your county agriculture extension agent. One of these days, if you really enjoy gardening, you might want to take the Master Gardener course, but I would try gardening for a while before taking the course because it requires quite a commitment of time.

Gardening is pretty easy to learn-by-doing.

Start out small and make your garden larger every year. Most people who start out "too big" get discouraged when they can't keep up with the weeding and watering, let the grass and weeds take over, get discouraged and throw in the towel.

So, start with something that is a manageable size. (That's hysterically funny coming from me....but, you know, the very first garden I had on my own after I got married was about 10' by 10'.)

My dad's garden "in town" was only about 30' x 30', and my grandad's garden "in town" was about 60' x 40' although his garden "in the country" when I was a young child was acres and acres. It isn't really the size of the garden that matters....it is what you do with the space you have, and how much you enjoy it that matters.

Dawn

I planted peppers today. I only planted hot peppers. Since I have limited starting space I thought I'd buy all my bell pepper plants. I'm not as picky about the varieties of those. Today I planted:

Cyklon - polish hot heirloom
Anaheim
Delicias - mild jalapeno
Chilipeno - large hot jalapeno
Robustini
Cubanelle
Numex Joe Parker

I like hot peppers but I just love love love those mild jalapenos. You can just eat and eat them and not get too overly hot, and they still have a nice jalapeno flavor. I love to stuff them with cheese and grill them.

Lynn

Lynn,

I love milder peppers too, but DH likes the hot ones so I grow lots of the hot ones for him.

We like to stuff to milder jalapenos with cheese and grill them too, and to make it even better, we like to wrap bacon around them and secure it with a toothpick. Yummy! NOT low in cholesterol, but very yummy.

I am in a rut and keep growing the same peppers over and over. I need to shake up my routine and try some different ones next year.

Dawn

Woa, I better get busy. I haven't even ordered any seeds yet. Dawn where do you get most of your seeds from Bakers? How long does it take to get them once you've ordered? I want to plant a lot of mild peppers, and add some other vegetables too. My Carrots loves Tomatoes book is on it's way, I'm planning on going all out this year. I've ordered some tomato plants from Keith Mueller, and am going to order the rest from www.tomatobabycomapny.com, I had good luck there last year. Whatever I can't find between those two I am going to order from Darrell.

Hi Sherri,

I get pepper seeds from several sources. I often buy sweet pepper seed from Pinetree Garden Seeds (www.superseeds.com) because they have a great selection, quick shipping and low prices. The sweet pepper seeds I planted this year are a couple of years old and cost me 95 cents a packet at the time I bought them. I don't know what their prices are this year.

I order lots of my pepper seeds from Tomato Growers Supply. They have 4 or 5 pages of pepper seeds in their catalog (and on their website) and have the best selection overall of sweet, hot and ornamental peppers. If you are not looking for anything really rare or unusual, you probably could find perfectly fine seeds at Wal-Mart, Lowe's or Home Depot, as long as the seeds are kept inside the store. (The last few years, I have noticed that the Wal-Mart closest to us has their seed racks inside early in the season and then, later in the season, move them outside into the greenhouse/plant area. I won't buy any seeds off their rack once it has been moved outside.)

You're going to love the book. It is so amazing. To me, it is like having your granny or an elderly aunt who has a lifetime of gardening experience and who decided to jot it down for you. I refer to it over and over and over again.

Let me know how Keith's plants do for you. Some year I might have a seedling crop failure or some other disaster and might have to order emergency plants in a hurry....so I try to stay up on who's plants/prices are good, and who's are not.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Pinetree Garden Seeds

I get some of the really common varieties at Atwoods from their $.10 racks. The labeled price is $.59, but they are almost always on sale for about $.10 per pack. You only find the most common types though, such as Cal Wonder, Hungarian Wax, etc. This year they had a Brandywine Red (?) tomato also. Mainly I get sunflower and marigolds from these cheap packs

The label says "American Seed" and on the back it says from "Plantation Products" in MA. I've never noticed a problem with them germinating.

Atwoods is also my favorite for 3-packs and for trees. Their fruit and nut trees are mostly the best varieties for our area, which can't be said of most other chain places.

Scott,

Red Brandywine would be nice if it really is the true Red Brandywine, and you probably won't know until you grow it.

This is what the true Red Brandywine should look like: It is an indeterminate plant with regular leaves. The fruit is red and varies from medium to medium-large in size. It has a slightly oblate shape and some very slight ribbing. The fruit is fairly crack tolerant, and is juicy and meaty. Most years the flavor is EXCELLENT but in extremely rainy years, or if you over-irrigate the plants, the fruit can be almost flavorless. Most years the plants is high-yielding (probably higher yielding than the true Pink-fruited Brandywine in our state), but can have poor yields in years where the heat sets in early.

The true Pink Brandywine is an Indeterminate plant with potato-leaved foliage. The fruits are large, oblate, with some ribbing and some green shoulders. The fruit do crack, especially following heavy rains. The plant yield is highly variable, from quite low to quite high. Generally, the hotter the climate the poorer the yield. The fruits are absolutely the best you'll ever taste (in a good year). They are meaty with an incredible taste that leaves you wanting more.

I grow pink Brandywine for its' superb flavor even though the yield per plant is low. I grow red Brandywine because it yields more fruit per plant, and the flavor is almost as good as that of the pink Brandywine. I grow Burpee's Brandy Boy because one of its' parents reportedly is the true pink-fruited Brandywine, and its' flavor backs up that claim. Brandy Boy, for what it is worth, is a heavy-yielding plant in our climate.

If you got the true Red Brandywine for 10 cents a pack, that's a bargain! There are numerous Brandywine strains out there although reputable seed companies try to provide correctly-labeled seed. Some of the strains are very good even though they do not actually seem to be true Brandywine. I hope the one you got is the real deal 'cause you're in for a treat if it is!

Dawn

Dawn,

The Brandywine Scott is talking about it from the American Seed company, it is tan colored packet. I too bought the 59 cent packet for 10 cents, and didn't even realize it til I got home. Is that a good company too buy from? They also have the Ferry Morse company at Atwoods. I got pink brandywine seeds in the walmart brand, I wonder if they will be the suddath's strain?

Scott, thanks for the tip on the 3 pack of trees at Atwoods, I will look for them this spring, I have been wanting to get some peach trees.

Sheri,

As far as I know, there are no problems with American Seed Company in general. Can you tell from looking at the seed packet if it is the American Seed Company based in Pennsylvania, or if it is the line of seed packaged by Plantation Products and, yet, for some unknown reason, labeled "American Seed Company" on the package instead or being labeled "Plantation Products"?

The whole Brandywine seed mess is one that has plagued the seed industry for years. A few dedicated seed-saving afficianados like Craig LeHoullier and Dr. Carolyn Male have tried very hard to ensure eveyone knows and understands what the true Brandywine is (and what it is not) so they can be sure they get the "right" one.

At least one seed company, Oregon-based Victory Seeds, pulled their Brandywine off the market a few years ago until they could determine that they had the correct seed. Unfortunately, that kind of dedication is rare and there are many things being sold as Brandywine that are not really the true Brandywine.

On its' website, Vicgtory Seeds has reprinted some of Craig's writings about Brandywine. It is a fascinating explanation and also shows how much seed out there is offered as "Brandywine" and is, in fact, something else.

To a lot of people, it might not matter if they have the correct Brandywine or not, but I have tasted the correct Brandywine and some of the "imposters" and there is no comparison. So, if I am going to grow Brandywine, I want it to be the right one so that my tastebuds are not disappointed. : )

And, if it was any other tomato, it might not matter. However, since Brandywine is widely lauded as being "the best", people who truly love tomatoes want to keep it that way by keeping the line of Brandywine seeds as pure as possible. When companies (and individuals who save seeds) label seeds as "Brandywine" when they obviously are not, we run the risk of diluting the true Brandywine until it no longer exists in the proper form.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: C.L.'s Brandywine Information via Victory Seeds

Exactly Sherri. Here is what I got from Atwoods:

Package one is labeled at $.59 but they sell for $.10, and it says American Seed on front, but on back says Plantation Products in Norton, MA. It is indeterminate and the pakage gives an 80-85 day-to-harvest estimate. The picture on the front shows very slight ribbing and very slight green shoulders (I know the picture is mostly meaningless)

Package two is from Ferry Morse labeled at $1.99 but selling for about $1.29 on special. It is indeterminate and the package says the fruit will be pink. The days-to-harvest is 90-120 and the picture show moderate ribbing and heavy green shoulders.

I want to grow them side-by side in a couple of places and compare the taste. (Not that I can tell the difference, because I really don't care for tomatoes!) I have never really trusted the cheap packets of seeds, but they have always germinated well for me.

I get almost all of my 3-pack transplants for pepper and tomato from Atwoods in BA or Carmichaels(sp?) in Bixby. Carmichaels has at least 20 varieties of each, and they have them in early March (so I naturally had to buy a second round last year in April).

Trees at Atwoods and berries at Lowes, but I check the labels each year to make sure they come from the same source!!!

Scott,

Based on your description of the seed packet data, I think you probably do have Brandywine, although you won't know for sure until you grow them.

I'd trust Ferry-Morse seed, but probably also Plantation Products seed as well. I've never purchased "bad" seed from either one of those two companies. I've always had pretty good germination with Plantation seed and excellent germination with Ferry-Morse seed.

I just went into the long explanation about Brandywine because there are so many "imposters" out there. The truth is that many, many seed companies purchase their seed from one of several seed producers/wholesalers, so seed sold by several companies may be from the same producer.

I think a lot of the confusion about Brandywine originated with people saving their own seed and distributing it, whether those seed-savers were private individuals or small seed companies. I don't think it is or has been a deliberate attempt by anyone to pass off an imposter as Brandywine, but rather just the result of some people distributing crossed seed since many people don't bag their blossoms or isolate the plants from which they'll be saving seed.

Dawn

Well, Dawn, you've done it to me again. Today I picked up a package of Brandy Boy while at Home Depot.

Back to the original topic of this thread: Most of my pablanos are up and the others should be up by the middle of the week. I have also ordered some ornamentals from TomatoGrowersSupply.

Anyone know how long TGS typically takes to get seeds shipped out this time of year. My catalog took almost two weeks to arrive after I asked for one online. I hope the seeds are not that slow.

Scott,

Oops, I did it again! Sorry. I assure you, though, that Brandy Boy is worth whatever you have to do to grow them....including removing all the lawn so that you have more room for tomatoes. LOL

When Brandy Boy was introduced, I was so very skeptical, but then decided to go ahead and try it. I didn't have very high expectations because claiming a tomato is "as good as or better than Brandywine" is a common marketing tool. I was pleasantly surprised to find it had very good flavor, grew and produced like crazy and was a heavy producer in all kinds of weather conditions. It also has been very disease resistant in our garden.

Is it as good as Brandywine? No, but then, neither is any other tomato on the planet. Is it a wonderful tomato? Yes.

My peppers are all up too, except for Orange Sun.

Unfortunately, seeds from TGSC probably will take a couple of weeks to arrive. If I order from them in December or January, the seeds usually arrive in a week to 10 days. Once February hits, though, the seeds are somewhat slower and, if you order in March, even slower to arrive. I think it is just that they do a huge volume of business.

Dawn

Please someone give me their favorite "mild" jalapeno!

Lynn mentioned Delicias. I saw one called "fooled you" in tomato growers supply co.

I need to get my pepper order in soon. I saw a pretty purple ornamental that caught my eye.

Gayle

Gayle,

How mild do you want it?

Several milder jalapenos similar to Lynn's 'Delicias' have been bred over the last decade or so. They range from extremely mild to only a little milder than standard jalapenos.

Heat is measured in Scoville units, with mild sweet bell peppers and sweet banana peppers measuring 0 on the Scoville scale. Habaneros, on the other hand, have tested between 250,000 and 400,000 on the Scoville scale, and capsaicin, the chemical that gives peppers their heat, tests at 16 million Scoville units in its purest form.

Here's a few of the jalapeno varieties that are available and their average Scoville units. The measure of Scoville units is usually expressed as a range, since even 2 peppers from the same plant will not test at exactly the same number of Scoville units. And, by the way, in a drought year, all hot peppers will test (and taste!) hotter than usual.

Fooled You -- 0 Scoville heat units
Delicias -- 250 to 500 Scoville heat units
Jalape' -- 250 to 500 Scoville heat units on some scales, up to 1000 on others
Senorita -- 250 to 500 Scoville heat units
TAM Mild -- 1,250 to 2,500 Scoville heat units
TAM Vera Cruz -- 1,000 to 3,4000 Scoville heat units
Jalapa Hybrid -- 2,000 to 4,000 Scoville heat units
Jalapeno M -- 3,500 to 6,000 Scoville heat units
Jalapa OP -- 4,000 to 8,000 Scoville heat units
Jalapeno -- 2,500 to 4,500 Scoville heat units, but occasionally up to 6,000 to 8,000
Purple Jalapeno -- about 6,000 Scoville heat units
Grande' 4,000 to 8,000 Scoville heat units
Biker Billy (Burpee Seed) 4,000 to 10,000 Scoville heat units, although in a hot year they taste significantly hotter to me
TAM Jalora (Yellow) 15,000 to 20,000 Scoville Heat Units

I like some heat, but not tons of it, so I like TAM Mild. I so eat regular jalapenos too, but not as often (or as many of them at one time) as I eat the milder ones.

Dawn

Has anybody tried the Aji Dulce, it is suppose to have the flavor of a Habanero, but very little heat. I am having trouble finding seeds for this one.

Sheri,

I haven't tried it but it is reputed to be very good.

I haven't seen seed in any of the local stores (not much of a seed selection out here in the sticks), but I know that Southern Exposure Seed Exchange (www.southernexposure.com) and Tomato Growers Supply Company (www.tomatogrowers.com) both carry the seed.

Dawn

Dawn & gang,
I thought I might inject this into your pepper world. I read an article a while back 3 or so years ago re peppers, (bell).
It really answered a lot of questions I had about peppers. The article mainly concerned itself with the habit of the pepper family. Started off by saying that in the springtime when you marched down to the nursery to get your tomato plants, that you picked up your bell pepper plants also. It proceeded to explain that the weather might be alright for the tomato plants but was tooo cold for the peppers. It said that if a pepper plant suffers a bout of cold down around the 40 or 45 degree range that it might never produce even one pepper. The article turned on a light bulb for me. I had always wondered why on earth I could not grow peppers over the years, as I was guilty of the very thing it explained not to do.
Now I wait and wait until I transplant my peppers in the garden, as I dont want any cold filtering down on them. And I have had success with this even though the peppers do come in later in the season. The best luck I've had are with Bell Boy. We had Fooled you's last season and just no heat at all, so am going up the scoville unit chart to Senorita this year. My Bell Boys and Senoritas are just now coming up.....
I hope this helps someone.
Bill

Hi Bill!

You and I must have read the same article. I never had trouble with peppers in my zone 8 garden in Fort Worth and I always planted them just about the same time I planted tomatoes there. Of course, with it being zone 8, the nights were warmer when I planted tomatoes than they are here, even though the daytime temps were about the same there as here.

The first couple of years here, I had a lot of trouble with pepper production. I started planting the peppers later and later (in comparison with the tomatoes) and got better production. Then I read an article similar to the one you read, and planted even later (after that light bulb went off in my head and I said "Aha!"), and got even better production. Who knew that a temperature change of just a few degrees made such a difference?

So, even though I start some of my peppers at the same time I plant my tomatoes, the peppers stay inside on the light shelf for at least a month longer than the tomatoes. The tomatoes, for example, have been hardened off and are outside all the time now. (Today they are all on the screened-in back porch to keep them out of the rain which is coming down in torrents.) The first round of peppers have only been outside a couple of times to soak up a little sun on the warmest days, and I started them the last week in January.

Since I transplant my peppers later nowadays, I like to have them as big as possible when I set them out so they have a chance of blooming and setting fruit in May before it gets too hot. Even if I don't get a lot of summer-ripening peppers (some years I do, some years I don't), I do get tons of fall peppers.

I don't know why the effect of cool soil and air temperatures on peppers isn't more widely known and publicized.

Last year, with all that rain, I couldn't even get my peppers into the wet, soggy, water-logged ground, so kept a lot of them in 3 to 4 gallon containers and got surprisingly good, though late, production.

Dawn

Bill

Thanks for posting that information. I remembered Dawn saying that from last summer, but I didn't realize that about the 40-45 degrees issue. Yea! I don't have to feel so bad about being a slacker and not starting my pepper seeds yet!

Dawn

You were right as usual, I guess I overlooked the Aji Dulce in Tomato Growers catalog. I think I am going to order several peppers from them.

Does anyone have any advice for a really good, yet fairly mild pepper for salsa, other than jalepeno. Every once in a while I stumble across a restaurant with extraordinary salsa, that must have a different type of pepper in it, rather than jalepeno. Maybe the senorita or Aji Dulce?? Sheri

Sheri,

Well, I'm the wrong one to answer this because we make pretty hot salsa. (We usually use habaneros.)

Anaheim peppers make a milder salsa, but the flavor and heat of different Anaheims can vary, so you'd have to experiment a little. You also could use Senorita or any of the milder jalapenos. And, keep in mind that some salsa recipes blend 2 or more varieties of peppers together. Some people use a smaller amount of a jalapeno pepper for heat, and more of the milder Anaheim for pepper flavor. You'd have to experiment to get the amount of each pepper that works for you.

Maybe Bill or someone else who grows peppers (or someone else who doesn't grow peppers, but does make salsa) will have some other ideas.

I have a friend in Texas who makes a great salsa using the tiny bird peppers, but it is a hot salsa too. She's in zone 8b so her bird peppers are either perennial (unless it is a very cold winter) or they self-sow and reseed. (Must be nice to have the bird peppers sprout and grow all by themselves every year!)

Dawn

Sheri,
No I cant. Sorry to be so blunt, but your tastes are unique from everyone elses. I can give you one hint. Go at it in steps. Make some salsa and put one hot jalapeno in.
If thats too hot, cut back to one half of one. Or if its not hot enough for you, try two next time.
And then you have the old runaround of some jalapenos not as hot as some others.
I will relate one short story concerning this. Last summer we were making salsa and had only Fooled you's, so no heat, right. Well I went to the store after some jalapenos, and the check out lady at the grocery said that some customers had complained that the jalepenos were too hot.
Silently, I said to myself, all jalepenos are hot! And it wasnt until I was peeling and preparing those little bombs, that the check out lady's words came rushing back. They were hurtful! They even permeated the air with dangerous fumes. Well anyway, enough on that.
Bill

I like the taste of the hotter poblanos that I eat sometimes at restaurants. I don't know how it would taste in salsa. I have 18 poblano plants so I expect to be trying it a lot of ways this year.

Bill,

I think our local grocery store had the same kind of jalepenos last summer. They were so hot, I could only use 2 slices.

Scott,

I am going to try the poblanos in some salsa too. That is one kind I already bought seeds for, I like to make enchilada sauce with them. Sheri